Torn and confused.

[MartinSmartin]

I just re read my post on nov 26th. I've changed a lot of the things I said then and feel very differently now. Thank you guys.

[Snorkmaiden]

Hey Martin,
I'm glad to hear you sounding happier!
If you don't mind getting the perspective from someone who is a bit older than you are, here's another data point for your very important* research on the Nature of People, their Interactions, their Relationships, and Sex:

I met my current partner (nerdy, tall, a bit overweight, totally sweet) when he was 46. He had had very little sexual experience, and what he had was not a good memory. Once he had a sexual encounter to 'get it over with', because he felt abnormal not to have had sex when he was 26, and it was with someone he did not even like; it was born out of frustration and anger, and didn't feel very good. But it did help him to feel a bit more relaxed and well, normal, as in more similar to what he imagined most other people had experienced.
Later on he had a sexual encounter with a woman who tried to trick him into marriage because she wanted to become a legal citizen of the country. That left a very bitter taste in his mouth.
That's all. Not a lot,is it?

When we got together (after having been friends for eight years), he told me that he had very little sexual experience and it would be best for me to regard him as someone with none at all. My response was a bit of surprise, but nothing negative; I said, well, let's just start off slowly and see how things go.
It took him a while to get into the swing of things, and you know what? That was fine. I really really liked him, and I was fine with things being awkward for a while; in fact I loved discovering new things with him, as pretty much everything we did was new to him and that made it feel new to me, too.

It was never ever a problem to me that he was not experienced. We are still together nine years later and we have a sweet, satisfying and happy love life.
So: yes, people do start having sex later in life sometimes, and that can work out just fine.

Keep on keeping on. I think you're doing great and learning a lot. Go you!

('A monolith' means 'all the same'.)

* I'm not kidding. It really is important.

[Heather]

Martin, you're kind of my hero right now. Truly, it can be really freaking hard to identify broken but longstanding ways of thinking, put them out in the light of day, and start to deeply challenge and change them. It's especially hard, I think, if and when any of those things were formed and cemented with childhood abuse. As I know you know and experience, our childhoods tend to be very formative, and the earlier and closer to home -- including right IN home -- abusive or otherwise destructive things or dynamics occurred for us in life, the harder all of this can be.

I really commend you on taking the journey you are, with your therapy, and with talking here.

Bringing things back round to the front, can I ask you -- since from everything I can tell, you really are very good at self-assessments -- if you feel like now is even a good time for you to be pursuing sexual or romantic relationships? Or doing more, perhaps, than only having very casual interactions or relationships that don't ask much of you, don't ask for you to have to give a lot of trust when you're still working on all this so intensely, etc? My sense is that you're probably not in the best space for any of this right now, though I totally understand if that feels in conflict with your concerns that you're already late, as it were, to this stuff.

But I don't want to dig too much into that without first hearing your thoughts and feelings on the matter.

[MartinSmartin]

Hi Casey, Hope you have a good new years eve and your new year is going good.
Sorry for not replying so soon, been going through lots of things.
Your post gave me a lot to think about, thanks. Yep self esteem is a big one, and I think that might be at the heart of it. Maybe self esteem is everything.
The sex part would be awesome, and dating too, but self esteem issues are what's keeping me from it. Aww man last few days have been painful but good. Being comfortable in my own skin. That's a phrase that comes to mind. And that's not yet me. When I am, I'm good. At work I can kick out the most aggressive and persistent salesperson without any issue and even laugh about it. And organize employees and direct things very well, even when pressure is crazy. I'm friends with a couple people I've had to fire even. I'm strong in those areas. Now comes the broken part. Couple days ago I realized I felt punished and criticized for being me. So I think the fear of getting close to people not at work, comes from there. I realized I was made to feel ashamed to be myself. That's the association I made in expressing myself. Massive shame. For everything. Shame for not knowing some fact, for being overweight, for wanting to be close to someone, for being too tall, for wanting to be loved. It's as if I was criticized and beaten so much that I believed there was something wrong with me. Hard to think about that kinda stuff. Actually makes me a little sick. But the more I do it, the better I feel. And the more I realize people in general aren't so hurtful as I felt they were. Trust is another big one I think. So now, when I feel scared to say something, I just say it. Carefully lol. Gives me more power. Freedom.
How were you able to deal with self esteem issues?

[MartinSmartin]

Hi Heather. I hope you had a good new years and everything is going great for you.
No one has ever said to me I was a kinda hero to them, thank you, it meant a lot to me. Yea haha, it is very hard. After posting here, which I am very grateful for being able to do and to everyone who has responded, I feel wiped out lol. The forum times out on me every time I make a post lol. Takes a while to write things out.
Thank you, I think the things I'm doing are going in the right direction too. Little things are changing. I stood up to old dad a few days ago and have been for the last couple of weeks. But what's cool is that I was polite, assertive and not aggressive. Felt like punching his lights out, didn't. And most importantly I did not feel guilty. Took a lot out of me to do that, but it's easier now.
I guess it's lies that trip me up. But now I know if I start to feel a certain nervousness then something is wrong and I have to work it out.
Thanks for asking me if its a good idea to pursue relationships. I think it might be a good idea. But slowly. Its kinda like writing in here. Without doing something then I don't actually deal with problems and work them out. It's a weird thing, I've had the confidence all along, just that the abuse jacked it up for a while. It's very nice to be able to write in here. I'm thinking I could just lay all my cards on the table, well most, and see what happens. By not doing something I dunno if things change or I get to grow. There's an audio series on social anxiety that I listen to over and over, and one thing comes to mind, 'stop the thinking and start the doing'. And I like that. And yep I do feel like I'm very late and lol going to miss out. I think deep down I'm pretty good, its just all the issues that get in the way. I do feel a sense of urgency, but in a strange paradoxical way by doing something to go forward then I don't feel urgent and perhaps I will get to where I want to be anyways. As long as I'm doing something to go forward, then I'm happy. What are your thoughts? Thanks as always.

[MartinSmartin]

Snorkmaiden Thanks for replying.
Ask a lot of questions about relationships, people, sex and interactions, that's good advise thanks. The info you told me about your current partner makes me feel more hopeful, thanks. What do you mean when you say 'That's all. Not a lot,is it?'.
That's very cool you did not judge him on lack of experience. Maybe I'm looking at that too harshly and have a skewed view of things. Since I was criticized very harshly growing up I tend to see myself and people that way too. And maybe it's not really that severe in reality. Funny thing is if it were revered I would not judge anyone that way but somehow I judge myself and think people would do the same to me. Maybe they would not. And if they did perhaps that's their problem. Monolith makes sense now. Not all people are the same.
Thanks so much for the encouragement! Have a great new year.

[Heather]

Martin, I personally trust your assessment of yourself and what you are ready for. After all, you clearly exercise a lot of deep, careful thought about this stuff often.

You know, I think one of the things abuse sadly teaches us is not to trust ourselves. Personally, I feel like for me, it has been one of the hardest things to relearn through my life, and it is a doozy. So, I would encourage you to trust you here.

I suppose what I would just suggest is thinking about what you need to be able to approach dating with as positive an attitude as possible. If you come to it with the kind of thinking andbfeeling you first came to the boards here with, it is not going to go well, as you know, and you will wind up shooting yourself in the foot as a constant.

What do you think you need around that, if that sounds like a good call to you, too?

[MartinSmartin]

Snorkmaiden I wanted to ask you, you said you were surprised that he did not have much sexual experience. Why were you surprised? And what was your reaction or what were you thinking when he told you that?

[MartinSmartin]

Hi Heather.
Thanks for saying that. How were you able to relearn?
To be honest I don't know what I need. I'm just tried of feeling all torn up. And I'm tired of being nervous and being afraid of being judged and criticized. I'm tired of being alone, condemned, and feeling worthless. Seems like such a high and impossible bar to reach to get someone to like you. I'm upset today. I tried to call and leave a message for a girl I like and was barely able to speak into the phone. I'm very depressed today. I just want to go somewhere where everything is ok.
I'm tired of trying. I'm tired of seeing couples happy. Tired of getting beat up. Maybe I will just work a lot and forget all about finding someone. Maybe you can imagine, it is so painful never having had anyone close. Then all the religious guilt, "its shameful to like women, and its shameful not to be married"
It never ends. I realized I associated shame, guilt and fear with the ability to be myself. Growing up all us kids were beat up, humiliated and criticized so much that for me I fear getting close to someone and then think its a bad thing. I dunno what to do at this point.

[Snorkmaiden]

Hello Martin,
Sorry to hear you are having a bad day! At least you can come here and vent a little.

I'll answer the two questions you posted before:

- When I wrote ''That's all. Not a lot,is it?' I was talking about the sexual experiences my boyfriend had before we got together. The two experiences I described were all that happened. And that's not a lot.
- I was a little bit surprised when I found out about his lack of experience, because at the age of 46, I had expected him to have a bit more than he actually had. We had talked about many subjects before, some of them sexual in nature, and it had not occurred to me that he was not speaking from experience. But I did not see his 'newbie' status as a bad thing, just something that I had not expected.

He told me once that sometimes, when he felt very lonely, and really wanted a friendly touch, he'd go and have a haircut and a scalp massage. He enjoyed the gentle pressure on his head and the pleasant sensation of being touched in a non-medical way. It was not sexual, but then that wasn't what he was after when he did that; he just wanted to be touched by another person. Maybe that's something that you could consider doing.

In any case, if you can, please do something nice for yourself today.

[Heather]

You know, Martin, for myself, most of this has happened gradually over time, and been done by the seat of my pants without much intention, especially early on. There just were not the same resources and services when I was younger that there are now, so a lot of us were just DIY-ing it.

So, I'd say time took care of a lot of that, as well as just going ahead and doing things anyway without a whole lot of trust in myself, so it just kind of built up as I went about life and saw that I could be trusted, my instincts were trustworthy, the works.

I also did a lot of reading. I've always been a big reader, so immersing myself in things that supported my healing reading-wise was, I think, a big help for me.

Probably, though, the biggest influence was the fact that since before I was even an adult, the work/jobs I did almost entirely involved taking care of others. And when you see that you can take care of others well, and you can be trusted to care for them well, I think it gets a lot easier to see that of course you can then also be trusted to take care of yourself, trusted with yourself, because that's a lot less responsibility, if that makes sense.

I'm so sorry to hear how much pain you have been in, and how much you still suffer. I wonder, in terms of the loneliness, if you've put any effort into just bringing people into your life as friends and self-made family, rather than putting all your energy into seeking out lovers and romantic partners? If you haven't really put your efforts into those other kinds of relationships, my advice would be to start doing that.

friendship, after all, is the foundation of any kind of good relationship, so as we learn how to be and have good friends, and how to pursue and maintain those relationships, not only do we learn relationship skills -- for any kind -- in general, that also is a sound way to bring more people into your life so that you do not have to be and feel so alone.

[MartinSmartin]

Hi Heather. Been a while since I posted. Thanks as always for your awesome advise.
I have been reading a lot of books and some things have changed in my mind. Some things not. Who knows how far I have to go. I might be better than I think. It seems I can have a conversation with people better than I thought. I'm getting through all the horrible things the parents have told me about who they thought I was. Who knows. I've stopped thinking so much about the past. Some of the religious guilt is gone now.
I will be moving to San Antonio soon. Kinda scary. There is a meet up group for people new to the area. And that is the first group I will join.
I've stopped expecting so much and letting things go where they may. I want positive things now and I'm tired of all the crap. At least thats something.
I'm starting to let go of all the guilt and condemnation. I have gained 15 pounds in the last few weeks but I think I understand it now.
I've stopped putting so many demands on myself. I dunno, does that sound kinda like what happened to you while you were getting through things?

[MartinSmartin]

So Snorkmaiden then you didn't judge or condemn him for his lack of sexual experience?
I come from an upbringing where judgement and condemnation was very severe. So maybe I'm overreacting to what people say.
I mean are people in general as harsh and painful as I think they are?

[Heather]

You replies here got lost in the shuffle, Martin: so sorry I'm just seeing and responding to them now!

Starting with what you just asked and said to Keda, I think it's really important to remember that even if and when abuse is our normal, people who abuse others are not, in fact, the norm. In other words, more people in the world do NOT abuse others -- including emotionally -- than those who do, based on all the data we have with things like this. So, no: if you are assuming most people are like your family, I would say that is a mistaken assumption.

Bear in mind, too, that you don't get to choose your relatives. You do, however, get to choose who you have elective relationships with, so if and when someone doesn't show you, very early on, that they are kind, compassionate and caring, you get to walk away, and it gets to be easy. Deciding not to move forward with someone after a date or two is so no big deal: it's something people do for various reasons all the time. If you want to talk at any point about some ways you can determine if new people you meet or are pursuing are not abusive, we can certainly do that.

I think a move sounds like a great thing. You're in a space where it seems like you're really starting fresh, or as fresh as anyone can, emotionally. I think that when we're doing that, a physical move, too, can be a really great choice. Are you excited about it?

Btw, I'd encourage you, as much as you can, to practice kindness to yourself. I get that a big weight loss is a big deal, but I'd do what you can to be sure you're acting differently with yourself than your family did, so if you have something like a weight change, you just let it be without focusing so much on it, or viewing it as something you need to fix, etc. So much of the time, learning to be gentle with ourselves is actually a lot harder than finding others who will be gentle with us, but it's actually one of the biggest keys to creating healthy relationships with others, and having a healthy relationship with ourselves.

[MartinSmartin]

Hi Heather. Thanks for responding as always, no worries about my post getting lost in the shuffle. I'm glad to hear from you.
Slowly I am learning that most people are not interested in abusing others. I'm happy to see you wrote that tho. I have two female friends now who have come from families very similar to mine. One has pretty much gotten out the other is kinda stuck but also gotten out of much of it. So I'm human after all.
I'm reading "Changes that heel" Kevin Cloud. Great and very liberating book, but also hard. I would recommend that book to anyone.
I'm understanding that my parents are what I was basing a lot of my world views on. Yep! I would love to talk about if people are abusive THANK YOU! That would be such valuable info! THANKS! Once I get to San Antonio and start dating I will have tons of questions, I'm very grateful to get any advise.
Yep I am excited about moving, scared, unsure, and a little shaky, but I think once I'm there I will see things differently too. Thanks for asking
You're totally right, I will diet, exercise and that will take care of its self. Maybe I can save up and have some surgery done later too. Or maybe someone wouldn't care. But ether way its something I want to do. I think I'm moving through a lot and quickly now. Everyday I learn a new thing.
How does a person be gentle with themselves? It makes sense what you say, because then maybe we can be gentle with others in the same way?
I have a bunch of other stuff to write about too.

[MartinSmartin]

Been a while since I posted in here.
I've basically given up on meeting anyone and on life in general.
I'm in San Antonio now, dunno anyone, don't like it here and I guess I will get a job and work the rest of my days alone and in misery.
That's what God wants for me.
I will have to look away when I see couples and people who are happy.
There's too many strikes against me now.
No one wants someone like me.
It's too late now. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. This life was just not meant for me.
Women want too much and I can't be what they want. Sad wasted life is mine.

[Heather]

Hey, Martin. I'm glad to see you, though I'm certainly not glad you're having a rough time right now.

We obviously can't speak for anyone's God, and as a secular space, we also can only talk about choices people can themselves make (and would encourage you to do the same with the parts of your life you can control).

I would also ask you to please not speak for women: we can speak for ourselves, and I had thought we were able to move past you talking about all of us based on your ideas of us (rather than our own, which is really the only sound idea when it comes to talking about any group any of us are not a member of), and based on the idea we are somehow all the same and want all the same things. Some of us are sitting right here, so talking for us is...well, it's just not very respectful, okay? Let's be sure to treat each other with respect.

Can I ask if something happened that seemed to get you back in a similar kind of headspace you first came here with? And if you've talked with your therapist about these feelings and what seems to be a step back from where you'd gotten?

[MartinSmartin]

Hi Heather
Thanks for replying. I'm glad to read your post thank you.
Honestly, I did not mean to disrespect anyone. I have a phone call march 2nd with my therapist.
I can hardly talk anymore so this is difficult typing. I have to forget about the idea of ever going out with anyone. There is so much religious hatred in my head against me. I have stopped looking for work. I am at my friends house and all I do is sleep all day.
I have been on three dates here and I have learned that I am not attractive and no one is interested in me. I honestly do not know how people even meet each other here. It seems like society, religion and people are against dating and people even getting married. For the most part it seems like people are happiest when others suffer and eventually want everyone to die. This is how I was raised. Its hard for people to understand that not coming from a home that hated them and encouraged them to fail. Every positive thing in me was ridiculed and knocked down. Fear, intimidation and pain was my family. So I ate that up and carried it around my waist for 30 years. And now I'm coming out into a world that's very confusing. I'm an infant in an adult world and I don't like it.
So almost everything that many people take for granted, friends, love, job, life, has pretty much been taken from me. Yep I am sick.
I think I might go back to school, bury myself in that, forget about life and maybe someone will like me then. I guess not everyone in life gets to be happy.
Anyhow, thank you for taking the time to talk to me.