Sex too complicated to be enjoyable?

[Bubbles]

I'm still a virgin and have refused to let myself into a relationship because of my fear of sexuality. It's going to be hard for me to explain my problem but I'll do my best. I have a terrible feeling I won't get answered or maybe my question will be taken down because nowhere on the internet have I been able to find anything addressing this sort of feeling I have which scares me off, especially from a male perspective.

I've spent a lot of time researching everything about sexuality, sex, relationships, anatomy, and everything else I could think of that would be useful to know if I was ever physically intimate with someone but I've encountered a problem that I just can't seem to find anyone else discussing on this site or any other, no matter how hard I search. The amount of knowledge I've gathered has made me scared of having a sexual relationship. There are a number of facets to this fear I have, I'll try my best to cover them all.

I've heard from many people and sources that orgasm isn't a necessity in sex, but obviously it's still something one should aim for. Though I've heard that girls are not able to achieve climax every time during sex. Hearing this, I can't help but sometimes feel... inadequate. Even though I've never even been in this position, I feel that just by being male I'm sort of lesser because male sexuality is so basic in comparison. I can understand it if she wouldn't be in the mood to even do it, but if I had someone who I cared about and we were physically involved, the thought of her occasionally having to finish herself or not able to climax at all, even if she was in the mood makes me feel hopeless. I'm sure many girls would say they don't mind if they don't climax EVERY time, but for some reason it still just makes me feel hopeless that that is a common thing. I don't know why. But please know that I would never force the expectation on a girl. Ever. I understand that it'd be my fault, or that that's just the way anatomy is. Or some other logical reason. However, I'd still feel absolutely terrible and inferior as a lover in that regard.

And then there's the sensitivity thing. Simply knowing that men on average only last 5 minutes during intercourse whereas girls take upwards of 30minutes-2 hours or more, (Or sometimes less; I know it varies for everyone), it makes me feel even more hopeless. I know that intercourse is only an optional part of sex. Still, I feel as though I'm designed as this basic, primitive thing that isn't equal to women. I feel intimidated, and lesser. I look at sex and don't even see a fun interaction. I see a challenge that takes serious effort, energy, practice and skill to even stand a chance in, and that challenge determines whether I'd even be able to make someone I love happy in the most fundamental way, for many people.

And then there's the clitoris, which I still don't fully understand. I should start by saying that I know the difference between the internal and external parts, where they are, and what they look like, as well as how important they are. I know the anatomy. But I know that a large portion of girls don't even care for vaginal intercourse much if at all and prefer other stuff. But... this bit is going to sound selfish and I am really so very sorry for that, but it feels like in order to make her feel good I wouldn't get anything out of it physically. It's like there is no form of mutual sexual interaction. The whole thing would just be a process of me trying to do the right things with oral, manual, and working with the clitoris and secondary erogenous zones (i.e. inner thighs, chest, neck, back etc.). I feel as though if I were to do the best I could to make a girl I liked feel good, I wouldn't even be getting anything out of it physically because I'd be entirely focused on things that only give her physical pleasure because things that make me feel good don't help her much or at all, like vaginal intercourse (As just one example). I'm sorry for how selfish that sounds. I'm sorry for feeling this way; I know it's wrong. Obviously though I'd feel good mentally knowing I'm making her happy.
Honestly, I don't even mind that aspect, I'd only care about making her feel good / happy, anyway.

I want to make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that I am not blaming girls or anything for being complexly designed. Rather, I just feel inadequate and worthless for being such a simple creature from a sexual standpoint, and that I couldn't possibly feel good if sex was entirely made up of me desperately trying to please such a complex system which... my penis doesn't even seem to be needed or wanted for, from what I've read, since intercourse doesn't do a whole lot for many girls. I feel bad. I feel like evolution hates me and wants me to fail. I feel like I'll always be inadequate in any physical relationship, by design. I know I'm talking about myself a lot in this post, but it's really just about my insecurities. I'm also shy so that doesn't help. I don't want to have unrealistic expectations and expect sex to be perfect all the time or always be able to help her climax 100% of the time, but as soon as I drop those expectations I feel like I can't possibly be worthy for anyone. If I'm able to climax all the time since my biology is so simplistic, why can't I give her that too?

(Sorry my post is so fragmented, I'm still trying to understand this all. I'm confused, vulnerable and scared, admittedly. If you need me to elaborate on anything else, please let me know.)

[Heather]

We can talk with you about this, no problem.

The long story short for me in this is that you are overthinking this, and have clearly over-studied, as well. You're complicating a bunch of things, but at the same time, you're oversimplifying your own body and sexuality, which is probably nowhere near as simple as you have the idea it is or will be.

Sex is certainly more complex than this, since there are people involved and people are more complex than eggs, but this is a little bit like being able to make eggs.

Learning how to make eggs in a way you, and even a few of your friends, like them isn't that hard. You may screw it up a couple times, and it may take a bunch more times to get them how you all really like them, but maybe that's like, ten times or so of trial and error, tops.

However, if you go online or even to the library and start researching how to make an egg, it could easily seem WAY more complicated like that, even to the point of leaving you wondering if you really do know how to make an egg after you do, actually, know how.

Sex with people, when it's totally abstract, and then especially when you're doing tons and tons of reading from a lot of different sources, seems way more complicated than it is. In reality, when it's just you and somebody else, it's a lot like making an egg. You get to know one another, you engage in some trial and error (which, if you like each other, is usually enjoyable and a good deal of fun), and then you start to learn what you each like together. In time, you get a repertoire of sorts, and then you just kind of keep experimenting and exploring outside of that for fun and because, as people, you're always growing and changing so what you are interested in or like can change. In reality, sex together is just about experimenting with bodies and enjoying feelings of physical and emotional pleasure.

Something else to know is that we all started with the same genitals: we all started, in utero, with vulva, basically, including a clitoris. Later on (still in utero), if and when that Y chromosome shows up, then it usually changes a clitoris into a penis. But setting nerve density aside (the glans of the clitoris is simply much smaller than the penis) these organs really don't function that differently. This idea these are radically different parts is a false dichotomy, and any sex educator presenting them that way is doing a crummy job, IMHO.

Another false belief to add to this pile is the idea male or men's sexuality is "basic" and women are these complex, mysterious creatures in this regard. In reality, those ideas come from really binary ideas about gender and sexuality that really don't fly in reality, and not just because we don't all fit into male/female or men/women in the first place. In reality, no one's sexuality is super-basic OR the stuff of epic mystery.

Something else to know is that very few people are going to feel very sexually satisfied just with penis-in-vagina intercourse alone. That's not just about women or people with vaginas. Sex just being about one activity or one body part is pretty boring for just about everyone most of the time, so the idea you'd be very satisfied with that yourself is another likely false idea.

Enjoying each other with a range of activities and body parts is generally just that for people: enjoyable. This notion that would be great for your partner and a chore for you is not realistic unless you really didn't want to be with that person, were not into them sexually, unless you had a lousy relationship, unless they weren't doing the same with you and your body. You have said you're very shy, so I don't know what your social experiences have been like growing up, but if you had some as a child, think about children playing together, and how they will tend to play a bunch of different games, made up and otherwise, but then also create variations to their games/play pretty much nonstop. When it's good for everyone, sex is often like that: fun, exuberant, inspired, creative, curious.

I don't want to overload you from the front, since you sound so overwhelmed already, so I'm going to just start there and we can take this from here. But I do think that what's driving the car of your feelings here is more your feelings than anything else, which probably were here to some degree before you started digging into any of this information. I think a lot of what you have taken in, and the level to which you have, especially with it being so abstract, has just played not at all nicely with the fears and insecurities that were there before you probably even got started. So, talking about false beliefs or wrong ideas is a thing we need to do here, I think, but n the long run, I think talking about your feelings and fears and working through those -- and not in one day or exchange, but probably over a good deal of time -- is really going to be what helps you out the most.

[Bubbles]

Thank you for replying. I did get more distressed with the more researching I did, but you're right; I had a lot of emotional discomfort before even that, regarding all these topics. I just don't know how to talk about it though, given how lost I feel. I think you're right that most of it boils down to my own insecurities. You mentioned it would help talking about my "feelings and fears and working through those -- and not in one day or exchange, but probably over a good deal of time". Could you please elaborate on that or what you had in mind?

However even if I could work through my own insecurities and whatnot, I feel I'd still have a problem due to confusion about what I think I know versus the truth, yes. I feel ashamed by my lack of true understanding despite my best efforts. I hear about so many people who let their partners down in this area, but I thought they were just selfish or didn't care most of the time. I care deeply, but I still get so many things wrong. I feel that the responsible thing is to just be alone. I know that my negative mindset is bad too though, I know. I just feel so worn down I can't help it. I seem to struggle more with things than I should.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what else to say, which bothers me because I know there's a lot more that needs to be said and worked through. (I actually thought I was possibly asexual for a long time but am only just starting to realise that I don't even think I am, I'm just intimidated and overwhelmed, among other things; that's how confused I am)

[Heather]

Happy to elaborate.

It sounds to me like this might be the kind of thing where a good therapist you can see one-on-one, over time - particularly someone with training and skills working with social anxiety, as I'd classify this under that umbrella in a lot of ways -- is likely to be most helpful. But if that isn't within reach for you, or isn't something you want, just talking with someone about it like us here, maybe even a friend or two, if there's anyway you feel close enough to to be that vulnerable with, and doing some self-help can likely do the trick as well.

If you're up to starting that kind of conversation, my instinct would be to first check in about how you feel about intimacy with other people, period, not just sexual intimacy. Do you feel any more comfortable, for instance, and any less worried about, emotional intimacy that isn't sexual, like very, very close friendship, including with women? Does that seem any less daunting or fraught for you than sex does? Do you have any more confidence in your ability to be a good partner or friend in that department? Or are your feelings about that similar?

[Heather]

(Just a quick FYI: this is the kind of big conversation I am always glad to dig into and really keep going for as long as a user needs, but I am currently out of town and on the road some, so I will be more sporadic from now until Tuesday afternoon than usual. Long silences from me should be assumed to be for that reason. You just sound very worried about the impact of your feelings and what you say about them here, so I wanted to let you know that in case I go dark for a bit, so you don't worry it's about offending me in some way.)

[Bubbles]

To tell the truth, I don't really have any friends right now. It's been that way for 2 years since finishing high school. I've also never felt close with any of them; I had 3 friends but I never saw them outside of class, and after graduation we didn't speak again. So I think I'll keep working through it on here and also try to see a therapist soon, like you said. I've never seen one before but I'll do it. I've relied soley on self-help until now, or tried to at least.

Sometimes I wonder if these were even friendships; they seemed more like acquaintances. I'm having a difficult time answering how I feel about emotional intimacy because I've never had a close friend, let alone a "very, very close friendship", and unfortunately none of them were women either. Perhaps this means my problem really is just general intimacy. But I've always wanted a more fulfilling friendship; I definitely don't want to be lonely. Once or twice, I tried to open up to these people just a little bit but they didn't seem to really care. On all occasions they either ignored me, or dismissed everything with apathetic platitudes then left me alone. As for the last 2 years, I haven't had anyone since starting university. I'm not entirely sure that I know what a close friendship looks like.

I'm really sorry if this post isn't very helpful, I feel a bit emotionally blocked right now from being overtired, I'll go to bed after this. (Thanks for the heads up by the way. You're right, I do panic about driving people away, especially on here since I'm pretty unknowledgeable, but I'll be calmer knowing that.)

[Heather]

It's just fine, no worries. I'm sorry you've had such a hard time of things. I hope we can help you turn that around. Feeling lonely and socially isolated like it sounds like you have been for a long time is very hard.

It does sound, from what you've said here, like it will for sure be hard for you to really get a sense of things like how mutually beneficial shared intimacy can be, and how it can be a thing that flows without too much effort, and where that kind of ongoing, circular flow feels good, and not so much about who is doing what for who as some kind of one-way transaction. I think it's also pretty clear why all of this feels extra intimidating to you.

Honestly, being sexual with other people is something that ideally comes after experience with other kinds of intimacy, so I think in doing all the reading you have been about this and all the thinking you have been, you've gotten *really* far ahead of yourself. I'd suggest you figure that you just aren't helping yourself by reading more, focusing on this more, and do what you can to shift your focus and energy. I think it would probably benefit you a lot more to use some of your time and energy to start learning how to forge platonic friendships, especially with women, since it sounds like even that is completely outside your experience. And if you want to do some reading and research, I think you'd be better served by having that be focused on social skills, like how to create and nurture emotionally intimate relationships, than on sex.

[Bubbles]

I've tried so hard but I can't. I'm 19 years old and I'm just as lonely as I was in preschool. I feel like a child. All the people I've known my age have plenty of quality friendships and have already moved onto more than that with relationships, and I'm still here stuck with the social development of a 5 year old. I've tried, all the time but I can't do it. It's not fair and I don't know what to do. The more time goes on the harder it gets, soon it'll be too late and I'll be stuck this way for the rest of my life. There's less empathy for older people, I've seen it. People say that it won't be like that but they also told me the same thing when I was lonely as a child and they were wrong about it getting better. Not matter what I did, it never got better. And this website is for "teens and emerging adults"; soon I won't even be able to come here.

I'm moving inter-state again in a year or two (As soon as I'm able) to restart university somewhere new since I was too stressed with my old one not offering the right courses. I could be 21 before I even get a chance to make close, long-term friendships. 20 at the earliest.

I browse the boards on websites like this and many others, and all the people with problems are still lightyears ahead of me. Regarding platonic friendship, I've done research, seen counsellors, and even just tried to observe others and talk to them to make friends like everyone else does, but I just can't stop being alone. I don't even know where to start. Part of me doesn't even want to try anymore, it just wants to give up. I'm so tired of always doing everything wrong, I'm exhausted. I try but it's like I just can't click with anyone. Almost like I don't have a personality to use for building any kind of relationship; like I'm dead inside, just an empty shell, not even human. And once again you're right, I do find it even more difficult with women, though I can't fathom why. I haven't even had a female acquaintance before. I do value friendship over sexual relationships, very significantly. If I was close with any women, I'd truly prefer a real, genuine friendship as opposed to a relationship.

I guess over the past year or so, I've started researching sexuality more because I feel like I need to skip stages just to keep up with the rest of humanity. I know that won't work, at all. It's completely nonsensical, but I... I. I don't know. I still have sexual feelings, but I'm clearly not ready for them. It's harder when I see everyone else having the freedom to interact with all sorts of people and have all kinds of different types of relationships and experiment, love, learn about themselves, and have fun.

I'm scared that by the time I work through this, I'll be 30, or 40, 50, or even 60. I'll have missed out on so much! I already have. My dad didn't even live that long; who's to say I will? What kind of life would that be, if I could never move past this? It's not like I haven't tried all this time. I've even tried not trying. It certainly never happened naturally. 19 years have passed already; how many more...

This is me being realistic; I take an outside viewpoint and see that really nobody would want to involve themselves with someone like me, as I am. I have nothing to offer. I'm that annoying person that nobody really wants around and wishes would go away, but they're (usually) too polite to say anything about it. Maybe I should just grant their wish. It seems selfish not to.

[Heather]

There's a lot of catastrophic thinking going on here. I certainly get how stressful all of this must feel, particularly if you feel like you're chasing -- and way behind -- a ticking clock it seems like everyone else is on or ahead of. But not only is it never going to be true, that perception that literally everyone else is ahead while you're far behind (especially at 19, an age when so many people are still brand new to sex and dating, and some, like you, still haven't started), that no one but you has these challenges (also a nope) that kind of thinking only ever increases anxiety, which is only going to create more barriers for you with all of this. Also, since you mentioned it, we serve users up until around age 30, an age we have expanded over the years because generationally-speaking, your generation as a whole is coming to some things later than generations before. So, should this be a place you find you like, you have plenty of time to be here for if you'd like.

You say you have seen counselors, so this is something -- this kind of thinking -- I'd suggest you bring up with any current therapist or counselor. If you're doing a lot of thinking like this, learning how to change things in this respect is going to give you a lot of relief. It's also going to help put you in a much better headspace for the pursuit of any kind of relationship, be that platonic friendship, romantic or sexual relationships, even your relationship with yourself.

If it helps to know, I am someone who was a way-early bloomer for everything, and I have had platonic friendships, romantic and sexual relationships and all of the above with "late" bloomers, including people who never had dated anyone but me before when they were in their 30s. And honestly, even with my being ahead of things, it was seriously no big deal. It wasn't a drag, it wasn't somehow worse than people with a more similar arc to mine. We are all so different, people, in some many ways, we are pretty much always going to be making at least some -- and sometimes major -- adjustments for each other. That's just part of inter-relating.

All of this is a choice. You say you're not sure if you want to try to forge any kind of close relationship, or any kind of sexual relationship (or both), so I do want to remind you that is a choice. You could choose not to if you'd rather not. You also get to choose to put some or al of that on hold for as long as you want: you don't have to pursue these kinds of relationships now just because other people are, or because there's some kind of deadline (there isn't), you'll miss if you don't. In fact, I'd say that'd be a really lousy motivation and basis for intimacy.

Where would you like to take this conversation from here? I could suggest books, I could see about helping you get connected with some mental health resources/help (which I would suggest, as you do sound very anxious as well as depressed), or we could just keep talking... we have options.

[Heather]

P.S. You might find this resource on managing catastrophic thinking to be helpful: http://www.mhinnovation.net/sites/defau ... o_stop.pdf

[Bubbles]

No that's not it, I really DO want to forge close relationships, I'm just not ready for anything sexual because that level of intimacy seems overwhelming for me and makes me feel uncomfortably vulnerable. Though I would like to be able to experience that one day too. But right now my heart jumps and I start to panic when someone even so much as makes a sexual joke, talks about their sex life, or flirts, because I feel so intimidated by it. And society is quite sexual so that happens a lot. It's quite distressing sometimes. My sexual orientation is closer to the heterosexual end of the spectrum I think, so I feel more anxious or panicky when it's coming from women because it feels a lot more real whereas around men I can *sometimes* distance myself from the meaning a bit more. I'm not saying I disapprove of female sexuality or anything crazy like that, it just makes me more intimidated by the power of it and how vulnerable I am, if that makes any sense. Does that make me sexist? I really really hope not, I don't want to be like that. Be honest though. That prospect scares the life out of me, I couldn't bear becoming what I hate. Now I'm really scared about that too.

Even when it's just with jokes it makes me panic and feel uncomfortable despite the fact that it carries no real meaning. I guess the topic just sets me off. It happens with men all the time too as I said, but not quite as much.

I've always wanted close relationships but I've never been able to find it, and I feel more and more lonely over time; this is part why I feel so anxious about time. I feel like it's not even entirely my fault, and that the people I've been around are incredibly shallow. I'd try to talk to them about something serious and make it clear how much it's affecting me, and they'd just change subject and talk about their dumb video game; that seems so immature. We never once had a meaningful conversation about anything, even if it wasn't of a depressing tone. Even though I tried. I felt completely alone even when I was around them, which doesn't make much sense to me. Is it just because I wasn't getting anything out of those relationships because they were so hollow? I felt like in order to interact with people I couldn't even be myself. Like I had to wear a mask.

Talking about it makes me feel sick and uneasy because I never have much in common with anyone and I feel the problem is unsolvable. You recommended that it would be good for me to be connected with mental health resources/help, so maybe that's the best course of action. But I also like being able to talk here. It's the first time anyone's actually listened and has made me feel less hopeless.

I haven't been officially diagnosed with depression or a social anxiety disorder since I've never been to a psychologist, but I feel sad all the time and cry myself to sleep on most nights, it's been getting worse over 6 years, and my doctor diagnosed me with health anxiety a couple years ago which made me a lot more suicidal than I usually was and I thought it went away but I feel it coming back. Social anxiety is likely too but I've never seen a proper therapist to diagnose it -- just local counsellors. I feel too scared to go to a proper one because... what if they can't help me? Psychologists are like the last line of defense and if that doesn't work, I feel nothing will, and that scares me.

I really want to be able to connect with someone. Even just one person, I don't want a lot of friends, having just a few would be perfect. And I'm more of a feminine person than masculine so maybe I would actually get along better with women(Generally speaking. I know it's not binary; I still don't know much about that either actually, I'd like to learn). Perhaps I should try that.

But I just feel sick in the stomach and feel my heart sink whenever I try to connect with anyone because it always feels so shallow and I start wanting to be alone again because I feel shut out when interacting with them. And sometimes because I'm so alone I start craving something deeper like a romantic relationship, perhaps to compensate (I'm not sure), but I severely doubt I'm ready for that so that means I also have to fight these feelings and tell myself I'm not ready for what I feel like I really need. That's not easy.

[Heather]

You can certainly keep talking here no matter what. It doesn't have to be a choice between talking here and therapy: you could do both.

I have to head to the road soon (my partner and I are out of state and driving back home today), so I am afraid a longer reply will have to wait until tonight. My apologies.

But I am hearing you describe what sounds like pretty severe depression to me here, on top of the social and other anxiety we've already talked about and you already had recognized for yourself. I disagree that a therapist is your last option (again, this is more catastrophic thinking), and I also think that even if it was, that'd hardly be a reason to avoid seeking out that help which I suspect will probably benefit you. By all means, it can sometimes take us more than one appointment or session to find the right therapist for us, but in listening to you so far, I seriously doubt some kind of qualified treatment -- whether that's talk therapy or something like CBT, medications or both -- will do nothing for you.

So, I'd encourage you not to delay and to start looking into that kind of help as soon as you can. perhaps even the next time you come here and read this.

(And for when I am back home and can answer you in a little more depth: you also sound pretty introverted to me. Do I have that right? It would help to know in addressing some of the social struggles you're having, like what sounds like, for example -- and boy, do I understand! -- a hard time going through the motions of small talk because you really just want to be at a deeper place in your interactions with others.)

[Bubbles]

(You're right again, I'm definitely introverted. Also, I've made an appointment with my doctor to get a therapist referral now; it's in 3 weeks. Don't worry about when you reply, I'm just grateful to have someone to talk with, thank you.)

[Heather]

Thanks for your patience.

How about you let me know where you'd like us to take this conversation from here? There's a lot to talk about, obviously, but this is for you, so I want to make sure your wants and needs are as best met as they can be here.

[Bubbles]

Oh, I thought you said you were going to do a longer full reply to my last post so I was just waiting for that. I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood.

The thing you mentioned about me being introverted and adressing social struggles? That sounded like it might be helpful, since it could be near to the root of my endless supply of problems.

Also I don't feel very well after making the psychologist appointment. I'm not sure I can handle the stress of sifting through multiple therapists trying to find the right one, risking getting a terrible one, having to open up to multiple to find a good one, and so on and so forth. I've also felt more anxious about being here and everything, I can't focus on what I'm supposed to say or talk about, can't tell how I feel... a strong sort of dissociation. I just want to retreat. I feel like I'm doing everything wrong and making the wrong choices; saying the wrong things and looking like an idiot and that I'm making your job difficult. There are people on here with real problems, I'm just taking up time you could spend helping them. I feel like I conveyed my feelings as best I could in my last long post but it was too broad and all over the place. Now I feel too dissociated to communicate. I really think I want to give up on everything.

I'm sorry I'm like this. I'm sorry for making your job difficult. I'm sorry.

[Heather]

No, it's all me. I just wanted to check in before saying more to make sure I was being as helpful as possible.

There's a really great book about introversion -- including socializing as introverts -- by Susan Cain called "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking." If you haven't read it. I'd strongly recommend it. I personally (also an introvert) found it really supportive and also quite illuminating. Another I really like is "The Introvert Advantage: How Quiet People Can Thrive in an Extrovert World" by Marti Olsen Laney.

What you're struggling with is real, and I assure you, I and the other staff here can manage triage wen needed ourselves. You don't need to worry about us helping you if others have more pressing situations, because making those choices in how we manage our time is our job, not yours. You take care of you, and we'll take care of running the site and its services. We got this.

So, in screening for therapists you shouldn't have to be baring your soul every single time. In fact, they are the ones who will usually be doing most of the talking because you're interviewing them more than the other way around. The trick is to figure out what kind of help you need and what you want (and don't) overall, and then you ask them the questions to find out if they meet your needs. I would be happy to help you formulate some basic questions of you like.

It's also okay for you to take whatever time you want here. We don't have to talk every day. You're allowed to retreat sometimes and come back out other times. This is about what you want and you find helpful.

[Bubbles]

I've downloaded the book: "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking". I'm a slow reader though so I probably won't get through it any time soon but thanks for the suggestion.

I've managed to get my psychologist appointment moved forward to next week but I feel quite hesistant to go. I've been given therapist appointments by a GP before but I didn't ask for them so I decided not to go (That was years ago), but I'm worried that if I don't go now then things might get too bad for me to recover from, if they're not already. You mentioned you could help me formulate some basic questions, could we still do that? I think it might help.

One other thing... it's probably not worth talking about but I've heard stories of people that can end up getting emotionally/personally attatched to their therapists. I'm worried that I might be at risk of that happening to me potentially since I have nobody I'm close with or even talk to in real life, aside from my mum (Who I'm really drifting apart from lately). Do you have any suggestions about how I can minimise the risk of me getting too attatched to the therapist like that, in case I might be at risk of that happening? I already feel more lonely after not having talked to you on here for a few days so it could happen much worse with a real-life interaction with a therpist, I thought.

(I suppose that's getting ahead of myself too since I don't even know how to find the "right" therapist)

[Bubbles]

I just realised that I might be breaking Scarleteen regulations by asking for help about this. I was reading the section where it talks about isn't supposed to talked about on the site and I saw this: "Ongoing mental health issues or conditions like anxiety disorders, clinical depression, bipolar disorder or persistent phobias, or users stating they are at risk of harming themselves in any way. For help with those, see: A mental or general healthcare provider. For extra online support or information, you can check out the National Institute of Health, Mental Health, here, or Mental Health @ NHS Choices here. If you feel at risk of self-harm or suicide, calling 911 or a suicide hotline is the right next step."

Have I overstepped? I'm sorry, I just don't have anyone else to talk to and I'm scared of therapists still. I'm woried they might refer me to a psychiatrist; I've heard about how cold psychiatrists can be and for many people it just makes them worse since they don't bother with therapy and often don't listen to you because they just want to get rid of you! Then they never get better. I'm starting to feel helpless and alone! I'm so scared.
The problems I first came to this thread with feel small all of a sudden. A safe, decent life seems so far away now.
Let alone a life with genuine friends and an intimate partner.

[Heather]

Not entirely sure why you keep trying to do my job for me, but I assure you, I got it; you don't need to try and do it. If this was outside any of our policies, I'd let you know and would be making different choices. No worries.

You're stereotyping an entire field and everyone in it here. Not only is that not accurate or useful, it's something that sounds to me like a thing you might mostly be attaching yourself to in part to try and potentially self-sabotage. After all, if you did get that kind of referral, and did find the person you were referred to wasn't a good fit for you, you could simply let them know that and move on. I suggest you have a little faith in the process -- I know it isn't always easy, and it's not like everyone in any field is guaranteed to be awesome -- and do your best to try and avoid more catastrophic thinking. I'd suggest trying to use some of the tools in that link I gave you about it.

Same goes with concerns about attachment. That is something you can add to your list of questions for therapists if you like, but it's also something that you can address with one if and when you think it's happening. No sense worrying about a thing that isn't actually happening to you.

I know it took some real guts, so I'm proud of you for getting that appointment pushed up. Well done! Let's make sure we get those questions formulated so you have them when you have that appointment.

I'd start by coming up with a way of summarizing your issues in a way where you don't feel *too* vulnerable in disclosing them. Something broad and general like: you suffer from pretty extreme social anxiety, including a fear of sex and sexuality with others, and a lot of catastrophic thinking, and also are often very depressed. How does that sound to you?

After you tell them that (whatever summary we wind up landing on that feels accurate and okay to you), you can ask them if those are things they treat and, if so, what their approaches to those things are usually like. Then you just listen and ask more questions as you have them, based on what information they give you.

You will also want to have a list of questions to ask about any of your concerns. If you do have strong concerns about attachment, that's something you could ask, for example. If there are kinds of therapy you want or don't -- like talk therapy, as an example -- you can ask if they do or don't do those kinds. Can you think of any concerns you want to bring up?

[Heather]

By the way, it's okay to have a good experience in talking here and to find it leaves you feeling less lonely. That's a big part of the point of finding and identifying and becoming part of communities, after all! That's a big part of why we're here doing what we do, and why we have an area like this.

[Bubbles]

I'm sorry. It must be getting annoying that I keep worrying about that, I didn't intentionally mean to be trying to do your job for you, I feel that I was actually kind of disrespectful in acting like that, I'm really sorry; I'll try to stop. I think it might actually be to do with the self-sabotage that you mentioned.

That's something I'd like to possibly add to the list of things to mention to the therapist. I suppose self-sabotage might already be covered by mentioning the catastrophic thinking though? I feel like some part of my mind is trying to make me feel worse. It tries to drive people away so I feel more lonely, it tries to tell me that I'm fine; that I'm not depressed or anxious and that I'm just attention seeking and that I need to keep it to myself, even though I feel horrible. I think it's also trying to get me to stop coming here and talking to you and being in this community because this has been helping to make me feel so much better, I suspect that's why I was worrying about that stuff about regulations and 'doing your job for you'. It sure feels like self-sabotage. Do you think that could be worth mentioning to the therapist? I'm wondering this because if I'm in a session with them and I have to communicate how I feel, then that self-sabotaging force might influence me and make me fail to mention something important about how I feel because it's telling me that there's nothing wrong so that I won't seek out help for it. Sometimes my mood switches like that and it stops me from understanding or communicating what's making me feel down. I don't want this to interfere with my ability to communicate with my therapist if I fail to notice it. Should I add this to the summary you wrote, or would that be something I'd talk to them about later on? I know we're just trying to figure out how to start the interview without me being too vulnerable. What do you think?

I'm sorry I wasn't using those tools in the link you sent me to avoid catastrophic thoughts. I can imagine it would be frustrating when you're trying to help someone but they're not taking the advice on board and you end up having to repeat yourself. I'll try and listen better. It's just hard to break the habit of these catastrophic thoughts. I've just used those tools to identify more about this self-sabotaging internal force, because I often find I'm telling myself that I'm fine and that I shouldn't talk to anyone about how I'm depressed or anxious or do anything about it, that my life is fine and I should just stay alone as well. That I'd just be attention seeking or wasting their time. But I know that I have evidence against this thought because I don't feel okay, I'm not experiencing the quality of life that a mentally-healthy person should, and I also don't want to be alone. And when I feel I'm in my right mind, I can acknowledge this. This is tricky though because it almost feels like catastrophic thoughts would be telling me that I'm NOT okay, rather than the other way around, but if I tell myself that I'm fine and to not seek help, when in actuality I'm not okay, then that's self-destructive because it's stopping me from getting better, and it's not rational to think that I don't deserve to be helped. Although I'm sad and anxious, right now at this moment I feel more in my right mind than before, and I know that I need help in order to get better, and that ignoring it would be unsafe. Does that make sense? Do you think I've got that right or maybe misinterpreted it as catastrophic thinking when it's not? I know I worded that terribly.

One last thing I thought about adding to the summary list for screening whether the therapist is suited to treating my case, is that I've felt directionless. But that's probably too vague to mention in the summary. After dropping out of that university that I didn't like, I've had anxiety also about future career prospects and where/what to study next, which is probably common to an extent, however. It's a bit off topic but it's certainly been distressing me greatly when my mind isn't on these more immediate issues we've discussed. I'm just not sure how to word that, or if I'd need to mention that in the summary at all. I've also had mild OCD symptoms for years but they honestly haven't bothered me too much, but that may just be because of everything else appearing worse. Still, it's unhealthy so maybe I should mention that in the summary when I first meet them? Is it important even though it feels like it isn't the most pressing issue? It's a point I could easily bring up later, but since the whole purpose of the summary is to figure out whether they're best suited to treating me, I suppose it might be responsible to bring it up anyway?

I'm not sure about what questions to ask, but I know you're right that it's very important for me to be asking them questions too. I'm running a little bit blind in the dark regarding what kinds of therapy I would or would not want, as I don't know anything about common kinds of therapy used (including talk therapy), and what they involve.
Could we please talk about that a little bit so I could get an understanding of what kinds I would or would not possibly want them to use? And maybe what kinds you think might possibly be useful or destructive in my case. Don't worry, I'll form a personal opinion on it too, I'd just like to hear your opinion since you've had so much experience with this and you've seemed to really understand me so far. I'm struggling to think of other questions too aside from the attachment one, which I'll probably just only bring up if it happens like you said, since I could be fine. Are there other important types of questions to ask a new therapist?

Would their sex or gender be relevant? I'm not trying to discriminate, I'm only asking since we mentioned earlier on that I struggle forming platonic friendships (Or any form of close connection in-person) with women, and wondered if that would matter. If my therapist was a woman, would that have the passive effect of helping with that slightly? Would there be any other relevant factors? I know some people consider this when choosing a therapist but I'm not sure if that's just personal bias. I'm probably wrong, there's probably no difference, in which case it doesn't matter to me in the slightest, but I'm just trying to think of everything. I feel bad for even asking that, I'm not trying to encourage gender bias. I just wanted to get that thought out of the way, I'm sorry if it was distasteful.

Thank you for that last comment by the way, about how it's okay to feel less lonely being a part of this community. That made me feel a bit better. I like it here. At first I felt a lot worse after talking about it because I was unsealing a lot of problems that I didn't know about or had suppressed for a long time, but now I'm beginning to feel like I'm actually making a little progress for the first time in my life, and finally understand my situation a little. I know this is just the start though and that there's a long way to go. I also wouldn't have booked my first therapist appointment without your encouragement, so thank you. For the first time in forever, instead of being solely focused on dark thoughts or suicide, I'm feeling a bit more focused on just getting better! I reallllyyy hope it continues. You've given me hope, and a chance to get better... I can't thank you enough for that. Really. I've never met anyone as kind as you; I wasn't sure people like that existed. I don't mean to sound so melodramatic; I'm just really grateful that you're helping me and being accepting. I'm not used to feeling cared about, that I don't have to pretend to be someone else, or even experiencing this sort of genuine kindness or trust. It's... deeply moving. I understand this is professional and that I (probably) shouldn't compare it to friendship, but is that what close friendship feels like too? Once again I know that sounds dramatic but I haven't felt like this before.

But still, I'm trying not to feel too high or excited, so that I don't crash if or when things get difficult (I tend to do that) because I have a long way to go before I overcome my mental health state and can experience a steady, decent quality of life and healthy, intimate relationships with others (Friends included, not just romantic and/or sexual), don't I? And I suspect the process won't be quick or easy.

[Bubbles]

(Sorry for the random side note here, but... am I sexist for having trouble forming connections with women in real life, as we discussed earlier? Or anything? I'm just a little worried. I'm also sorry if I sometimes use the wrong terms for sex and gender. I'm still trying to figure it all out; I don't even know how I identify in gender, but I'm probably not ready to analyze that aspect of myself at this point in time... but maybe we could talk about that later)

[Sam W]

Hi Danny,

I hope you don't mind my adding some thoughts here. I'm going to leave your last aside about gender and connection for the time being so we can focus on getting you ready for your upcoming appointment.

What you're describing, that feeling of some part of your brain trying to get you to stop doing things that you know are helping you, is quite common for people who are dealing with some combination of anxiety and depression. I refer to them as my jerkbrain, because that helps me remember that it isn't the most reliable, truthful part of my brain coming up with those thoughts; it's the part that seems hell-bent on preventing me from doing the things I need and want to do. And it is definitely something to bring up with a therapist, since it will give them more information about what's going on inside your head. If you think it would help to add it to your initial introductions, you can definitely do it.

There's no need to apologize for not immediately mastering the tools to help stop catastrophic thinking. It's a habit that will take awhile to break, and even as you get more and more comfortable stopping the thought spiral, there will still be times when it happens. All that is to say that, as much as you can, try not to be too hard on yourself when you slip-up. Unlearning the unhelpful thought patterns that come with anxiety and depression takes a lot of time and energy.

When you're forming your initial introduction, something that might help you is to focus on communicating the basics of why you're there and if there are any issues that are particularly pressing or that you wish to prioritize during therapy. For instance, after two instances of switching therapists, I eventually figured out to lead by telling the next therapist that the issue causing me the most distress at the time was tied to my depression, not my anxiety, so I wanted to focus on that before anything else. Or, you can describe any symptoms or behaviors that are causing you the most distress. You could say something like, "I feel like my brain always jumps to the worst outcome and stays stuck there and it really makes daily life suck and I want to find ways to make that stop happening" Does that make sense? Too, many therapists will have some kind of "screening" tool that they use that usually takes the form of a questionnaire (you may fill it out or they may just use it to guide their questions during the session). So you don't have to create the absolute perfect introduction, because part of their job is asking you questions that are designed to get a sense of what you're dealing with.

As far as types of therapy, there are a few common ones you might encounter. Talk therapy is where you talk and process aloud during the appointment, and the therapist offers thoughts and support. CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) involves identifying and addressing unhelpful thoughts patterns and doing exercises (and sometimes homework) to break them. CBT is commonly used in cases of anxiety, because it's supposed to help you retrain your brain to not give into anxious thought patterns. A good approach may be to ask the therapist what types they specialize in and then ask them to describe those methods to you, and pick ones that sound interesting or promising to you. If you take a look at this article, it has some other suggestions for what things to ask a therapist to help determine if they're a good fit for you: Process This: Getting the Most Out of Therapy .

As for gender, sometimes it matters to people and sometimes it doesn't. In theory, all therapists are trained to try and be open to the perspectives and experiences of their clients. However, some people find that they feel more comfortable or more heard by therapists who share certain characteristics with them. For example, I tend to prefer women because I feel like they are more likely to understand some of the ways in which my mental illness interacts with my gender more quickly than a man would. But I've also had a dude psychiatrist who was immensely helpful and a good fit for me. So it's all about what feels right to you and about how you mesh with a particular therapist and their personality and style.

I'm so, so glad you're feeling heard and cared about in this space, and that you're finding the conversations here are helping you head in a direction you need to go. You're right that the process of learning to manage mental illness can take awhile, and you're also right that as you go through the process it will start to be easier to form connections with other people. What I will add to that is that many people can be smack in the middle of dealing with their mental health stuff and still end up forming strong connections to others. You won't have to reach some specific point specific point before you get to start making friends, so those connections may come sooner than you expect.

Okay, that's a lot of words from me. Any thoughts on what I've said, or any questions that have popped up as you've been reading?

[Bubbles]

I don't mind you adding thoughts here Sam, I just can't help but wonder if you're here instead of Heather because I made that comment about "is this what close friendship feels like" and all that, in my second-last paragraph. That I was getting too personal. I know I'm in a sensitive state, but you can still be honest with me. I'll worry so much less if you tell me that I've said something... problematic, because then I don't have to worry about whether or not I did. I can be aware of what I say or feel as a result, and improve. Can you please set my mind at rest by answering that? Please be honest; I'll be fine. My anxious mind only needs an answer in order to rest, and be convinced that it's true. I can take it.

I want to read and reply to the rest of your message because I'm sure it's extremely helpful, but my anxiety is getting the better of me. I'd really like to just have this little thing resolved first. Could you please answer this and then afterwards I could respond to the rest of your message and we could continue? I know that this *could* be catastrophic thinking, but... I just want to know. Please, please, please be honest. It's okay if you say I did get too personal (or something along those lines), it's really just the not knowing that's making me nervous. It seems a concidence that you'd be here only after I said that.

(I'm sorry if my doubts are offensive. I don't mean to be. )

[Heather]

No worries! It's my day off, that's why I'm not who you got a response from today.

(Back for more tomorrow!)