I just have to get this out in a safe place

[Heather]

(Also maybe do yourself a favor and don't self-sabotage these good feelings by talking to people you don't know will be supportive right now? One of the ways we can help ourselves with this stuff is to not engage with people who we don't know for sure will be when our feelings are tender or precarious. I think that by reaching out to someone like whoever this guy is, you might be looking to self-sabotage and undo the good place you just got yourself to.)

[sky]

I’m almost tempted to block him but things were good before I told him so that’s my fault not his

[Heather]

I'm pretty sure you didn't make him into an ignoramus. That's on him, pal. <3

Moving on, because why suffer fools (not you, him): books, music, movies? Let me know and I'll toss you some things.

[sky]

I don’t know. I’m scared. I’m crying again about it. I don’t know if I want to but I should

[Heather]

It's okay to have those feelings -- to have this whole range of feelings. Let me know if and when you want any of those recs, and I'm happy to make them. Otherwise, maybe just let yourself feel whatever you're feeling, perhaps without pulling in interlopers? I really do think that it sabotages your progress. <3

A friend and colleague of mine wrote this that might be of use to you: http://aidamanduley.com/2019/11/14/how- ... hould-try/

[sky]

I think it’s funny that I’m like no queers I’ll get sad when, a couple years Taylor Swift released a song Lover and I’m like a huge fan so I ran to listen to it and I cried for about an hour straight because I’m gay and I want what she was talking about but I couldn’t have it. I’m so dumb?????

[Heather]

What do you think is dumb about that?

[sky]

Just the fact I have been pushing it down for so long. When I think about, I don’t think I can do the things. So I might not ever try again with girls because I just don’t want too

[Heather]

Well, the good news is that if you don't ever want to, then it won't feel like something you're missing.

I do think that you have a propensity to go for forever-statements -- to talk about what you will or won't do the whole rest of your life, instead of just focusing on right now. Not only can you, like all the rest of us, not possibly predict the rest of your life, again, I think, IMO, that's sabotaging behavior and also catastrophic thinking.

I would suggest that for the rest of today, you not try and lurch all the way forward to a) what you might ever do, and b) even to dating or not. Today you got to a place where you just felt okay for a bit being honest about how you have felt and identifying a certain way. That's already a lot for a day: I'd see what you can do to just stay with that, in the present.

We also did a lot today, so I think it's probably best for you to take a break now so you don't upset the apple cart of your progress by overdoing it. You have stuff to process. How about we check in again tomorrow or Wednesday?

[sky]

Yeah, I can do that. I’m still going to try to be straight no matter what it is I do or say. Yeah I might have come far but I still am gonna deny it no matter what and I still hate myself. I might just continue to talk to guys because how do I know unless I try with them so I will eventually once it’s safe for us to do so

[sky]

So I have something on my mind and I’m gonna get it out now. I’ve talked to many people and asked if I am with a man and don’t do penetration is it sex and am I still a virgin. It’s not sex really and I’m still a virgin to all the people I asked. So now I’m thinking, sex girl and girl is mostly oral? So I’m not really having sex? I know there’s more but I don’t wanna do all of the other stuff fast. So I’m just not having sex with girls which means it’s not real sex. I’ve been thinking about it a lot, that lesbian sex isn’t real sex and it kinda sucks. I asked the same people and they said that is sex. I don’t understand. I wanna like touch girls and do oral but that’s not sex therefore I’m not as bad as I feel like. Right?

[sky]

Whatever. Fuck all the questions I just asked and all of the conversations I just had. I’m straight and I’m going to get a boyfriend to love me and we’ll be happy and I’ll be fine. I don’t need to be happy I need to be loved. That’s all. I don’t care anymore about it. I’m going back online to men. That will make me happy.

[Heather]

Sky,

I have only approved these responses so that I could reply to them. I would not have moved them out of moderation otherwise.

Having spent a lot of time working with and for you over the last year, I am all too aware that you are deeply distressed by your sexual identity and other related issues. I’m really sorry for that: I hate to see anyone suffering the way that you have been, as is perhaps obvious by how hard I’ve worked to try and help you.

But over that last year, you’ve also sometimes treated me, my time and my freely given labor to you disrespectfully and callously, and this last response here is the straw that’s broke the camel’s back for me. This conversation yesterday that you’re all fuck-it-whatever about involved four hours of my emotional labor and investment. It also, as these conversations frequently have, involved me, as a queer person, having to listen to anti-queer statements and sentiment, which I know you know from experience is painful.

I recognize that responses like these are something that comes from your distress, but if you’re so distressed that you can’t treat me or others here with really basic courtesy and respect, then it’s not okay to post here. Anyone posting here needs to be able to still treat everyone with care and consideration, even if they’re having a hard time. This just isn’t okay.

This circling round and round we’ve done way more than once has taken up a lot of my time and energy, and setting aside the way you’ve also sometimes mistreated me with it, it seems very clear it’s not something that is helping you, or not help you want or are able to receive, since every time I or others do a lot of work and we make some progress, you frequently finish it with this kind of response if I walk away for more than a few minutes and don’t keep responding to you quickly.

I am going to suggest again that you try and work with a private counselor or therapist, both when it comes to the identity struggles you’ve been having, but also the pattern of sabotaging relationships or interactions even once people are clearly invested in you. I just don’t think we can help you here, in this environment, and it also just feels like you often can’t use this space within the bounds of our guidelines or even just common courtesy, and that just won’t do.

For the time being, if you want to keep posting here, we're going to set a limit on posts from you in a day and see if that helps: a maximum of three per day. You also will need to be more respectful of those of us giving you our time and energy, just like we ask of everyone else here. I’m going to personally take a break from engaging with you for a while in the interest of my own self-care, which I'm just letting you know so you don't wonder why you aren’t hearing from me. I continue to sincerely hope that you can find some relief and start to turn things around for yourself. I very much wish you well.

[sky]

I’m so sorry. I didn’t mean it in the way that it came out. I know you spent a lot of time on me yesterday and other days and I don’t take it for granted but I wish you knew that any time spent on me is a waste of time as I’m not worth any of the time you give me.

You’re one of my favorite people to talk to because you’re one of the only people I don’t feel like is attacking me full of hate for me. I’m sorry that the things I’ve said have been bad, I understand they have been bad. I guess I am homophobic/queerphobic which is not okay for anyone to feel or think this way but I definitely am. My hatred for myself has bubbled up so much to the point where it’s been going to different people. I never in my life thought I would dislike a specific set of people but I do now because they have what I wish for that I can never have unless it’s hidden.

I’m so sorry. I genuinely don’t know what to say because I just fuck up everything and everything I touch just crumbles in my hands and I’m left so confused.

I have been to therapists to talk about all of this and they don’t really let me talk about any of this. They cut me off every time and I’ve never been able to talk about my feelings surrounding being gay which makes me push the feelings down more. I’ve tried to talk to so many people about this and I just can’t because I always fuck up somehow. Like I know I say mean things but it’s only at me and even if it seems at other people it’s not I swear.

I know that you hate me but can you please forgive me because I honestly can’t handle more on my back of feeling hated. I’ve lost almost everyone in my life for either being gay, being confused on my gender or becoming straight again. My queer friends have spent years telling me that they hate straight people. Then they say they hate cis lesbians. I am a cis woman and so they fucking hate me either way. They’ve stated it for years.

Please don’t hate me.

[Heather]

I really need to keep the limit I set after this, for myself, but I don't want you thinking this is about anyone hating you, so I'd just like to clear that up.

I absolutely do not hate you. No one here does. I can actually speak for the whole of our staff, myself included, and say that everyone here cares about you a great deal.

I appreciate and accept your apology: thanks for that. I'm also very sorry to hear that therapists haven't let you talk about any of this so far. One thing staff here can certainly help you with if you'd like, moving forward, is finding LGBTQ-friendly (and/or themselves LGBTQ) therapists, counselors and support people so you *can* talk about this. That said, if you go back to when you first started posting here, you'll find some local resources I gave you for queer support organizations: those would be excellent places to start to find this kind of help.

I hear you about projecting internal feelings unto other people. The trouble is that whether or not it's really about us, if you say it to us...well, then it IS something you're making about us. I hear you having a lot of questions about why you do that, and confusion about why you can't control it. I'm sorry for that because that sounds really difficult, but I do think it's something some qualified help could get you started with. Same goes with the self-worth that remains such a struggle for you to grow.

I do still need to make some space for myself here, so I do still need to step away for a bit from our interactions. But that isn't a punishment, nor is it about hating you: rather, it's just about taking care of myself and doing my job as best I can. As you know, we have some other great folks here, so within that limit for right now, if you want some more help moving forward, that's available for you. <3

[sky]

I’ve asked them every time I go in or speak on the phone for a consult and they say yes we can talk about it and that they accept lgbtqia+ community. I even told one once that I thought I was asexual (I still kinda do) and she told me I wasn’t and we would dig into it and discover why I don’t like touch unless I’m really really comfortable with the person. Yes I’ve been molested as a kid and as an adult and I am certain that’s not why. Or that it’s just because I’m gay and afraid, which is not something I don’t wanna hear from someone I’m paying money to comfort and help me.

I’ve even tried to talk about the girl I’ve been madly in love with for almost 2 years and they let me talk for 2 seconds and say it’s because I’ve never had a good parental figure that’s why I think I love her. I try to explain and they just don’t listen to me. It’s been 3 different people I’ve had these conversations with and they don’t listen.

I have also specifically just looked into people who deal with just the lgbtq community and I don’t really find any in my area and if I do it’s like $200 a session which I do not have in the slightest.

I understand you need a break 100%. You don’t have to answer this or me anytime soon, don’t feel like you need too. (I think that might sound condensing or something like that but I don’t mean for it to, at all)

[sky]

So I just had an experience online with a girl. I’m definitely so very very very gay. I also talked to my aunt about the religious aspect of this sexuality thing I was facing. I feel so much better about that part.

Now, I’ve realized that I just need to make myself happy. What makes me happy is girls. Like so happy. I talked to her before this situation and she is poly and she’s completely okay with her being my little secret. We’re definitely gonna be friends but friends that occasionally have sexual encounters. I’ve explained that if we’re ever seen in public together that she’s just a friend and she said that she understands since she’s not really out to her family.

I’m not exactly sure the problem I had? Like I read that stuff back and idk why my heart was so... messed up. I still kinda feel the feelings I was having but it’s not as bad, it’s just fear. I have a weird thing about letting myself enjoy sexual things, especially ones including women because of the things I was told for so long.

I have deleted the app where I was talking to men. If this girl doesn’t work out or if I end up not feeling it with her it’s not girls all together it’s one specific person and I’m still gay. No matter how I twist and turn my life I’m still gay. No amount of trying to change that will help. I’m pretty religious and one thing I need to remember is I was created by him and he knew me when he made me and I’m not a mistake. I wouldn’t be this way if it was bad or gross.

I’m not really out at work much. Or to other people and I’m definitely not going to come out anytime soon and idk if that’s like not good but I just don’t wanna come out, I don’t feel emotionally ready. I don’t feel ready to tell anyone I’m having interactions with a girl (y’all don’t count lol) I mean I’ll tell a few friends but that’s all.

I do know that I’m not ready to touch another vagina at this out of my life and that’s okay and I don’t have to rush it. I’m sorry I said lesbian sex isn’t real. It definitely is. I’m also not sure how to term things when I say lesbian sex, I feel like I’m excluding with that terming but I don’t know how to say it and I’m absolutely not excluding anyone purposely.

My issue with it is, I had sex with a man as like a job, something I was given to do and I had to go finish it, I didn’t wanna do it. I have sex with a girl as a thing I want and I feel like it’s passionate and sensual and like it would just take time exploring. I’ve always been afraid to enjoy that.

I kinda feel weird claiming as lesbian when I’ve never really done anything with a man and that bothers me too with this situation but I mean I’ve never drank pee but I definitely can confidently say I don’t like pee. Lol. It’s kinda how I feel with this. I’ve never tried a man but I know I don’t like them. I mean I HAVE tried with men but I mean in a sexual form I’ve never actively tried. All the other times I cried or had to be tipsy for or I felt like I needed too were just signs I didn’t see. I thought it was my fault I didn’t wanna do specific things but it’s not, it’s just not something I want to do and that’s fine.

[RachelG]

Hi Sky,

Just a quick note to tell you that we're sorry you're having to wait longer than usual for a response from us. Sit tight! We haven't forgotten about you. You'll hear from someone soon, either tonight or tomorrow.

[Sam W]

Hi Sky,

I'm glad you're feeling a little more positive about your sexual orientation, and that you're starting to see that you don't have to experience something you don't want (sex with men) to feel okay identifying in a way that resonates with you.

As far as counseling, you may still have a few options available to you. There are two options in Phoenix that you can start with: https://thriveworks.com/phoenix-counsel ... ounseling/, https://onenten.org/. How about, today or tomorrow, you make a deal with yourself to reach out to those places and find out if they have a counselor they can connect you with? While it may not be as exciting as a potential new relationship, taking some of the energy you're directing towards dating and redirecting it to finding a counselor might be really helpful right now.

[sky]

I don’t need therapy, counseling, meds. I’m okay.

[Sam W]

Sky,

Given what we've talked about with you over the last few days, it seems clear that some form of LGBT-affirming healthcare would be incredibly helpful for you right now. I understand the feeling of those days where everything feels (and often is) fine, I really do, but it doesn't change what you've told us in the past year or what you know about your own mental health. So, I'm going to set another limit: I am not going to engage with you around other topics until you've taken some steps, even small ones, in the direction of getting mental health support.

Too, I do want to say that, over the time we've talked, there is a pattern where you will abruptly shift topics just as we're getting to a point where we may have found helpful steps for you to take, which is what you've done in your most recent post. From a purely practical perspective, that makes our job almost impossible, because we're having to constantly pivot in new directions, rather than helping you address the initial thing you asked for help around. I don't say that to shame you or make you feel bad, but instead to be honest about why we need to set some of the limits we have.

[sky]

Hey Sam/Heather,

I called the places and they are really far away, like 2 hours away. I gave up after that for awhile. I have chronic pain and it’s been bad lately and my brain is on like fire with that, trying to work full time to make money and not being able to stand without terrible pain, and basically holding a house together, and the gay thing it’s a lot.

Today I had my cousins 1st birthday party and I went and family was there and it just, made me so sad. My cousin married a woman and they have a wonderful son. I’m happy for them, I’m not shitting on them or any cis, straight couple work biological kids. It’s just like, I want to adopt. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to fully accept myself so I’ll probably be single but I want to have a kid even if it’s by myself. I was thinking about it, imagine I do get married to a woman or am just with a woman and have kids with her, no one would come.

I realized the other day, I haven’t been exposed to lesbians/queers much. I kinda came out when I was 12, to my 2 best friends, I told them I think I’m gay. Michelle Pfeiffer from hairspray started all of those feelings actually hahaha. Anyways, My best friend was dating girls in middle school and they didn’t do anything but hold hands and kiss sometimes, I went to high school and there was even more lesbians but I wasn’t someone people wanted to be around and so I had 3 friends, none of which were gay. So I wasn’t exposed.

Lots of things were said growing up like promoting straight couples to me and I listened and it seeped into my brain. I wasn’t allowed to watch lesbian based tv shows even as I was 18/19 I lived with my mom and she said I couldn’t watch it.

I was never exposed to it, I think that’s where this deep lying issue is. I don’t think it’s “gross and weird” it’s just, unfamiliar and I think that’s where I’m like stuck in. I watch lesbian porn and read lesbian erotica, pretty basic stuff and it’s so much. Like just watching girls kiss makes my mind blow, it’s just like such an interesting and sensual thing. I have this girl in my life and I feel sexual feelings for her and it’s like all I can talk about. We try to talk about other things but she makes me feel so stressed out (in a good way).

I don’t think I hate the thought of being gay. Yes, it’s hard to accept because my family but it’s just confusing. I feel like I’m stranded in the middle of the desert with like a bottle of water (you guys are the bottle of water) and no skills or anything to help me get to safety.

I’m exposed to sexual content I can’t ever even begin to understand and figure out how to do that, how that even happens. I can’t really read, I like don’t have the mental capability to read anymore, too much happening to focus on a book or long article. Tv and movies scare me because I’m scared I’ll run into girls kissing or having sex. I know I said I watched that but I have to prepare myself mentally for it because “pornography is the devil in disguise” and I deal with a lot of guilt surrounding it.

I’ve spent a whole day trying to figure out how to articulate my brain. I hope I was able to like, help you understand where my thought process comes from. I might sound just batty sometimes but there’s a place it comes from. I took way to long writing this so I really hope it makes sense.

I’m so sorry again, reading back I was kind of an asshole. Just because I’m hurt, depressed, mentally ill doesn’t give me an excuse. I lost control of my emotions and in the moment it feels real, but then after I realize it’s nothing real. I still honestly believe I have borderline personality disorder but that’s besides the point lol. I was out of line. Thank you for forgiving me, I’m still trying to learn so much.

[Sam W]

Hi Sky,

Given that the in-person counseling may be too far for you to access, I want to highlight that Thriveworks has online options available right now. In case you missed it, they're at the top right of this page: https://thriveworks.com/phoenix-counsel ... ounseling/. So, investigating that would be a sound next step.

[sky]

I don’t want to talk about this anymore. You guys don’t have to say anything anymore.

[sky]

I just came back from a date with a girl and we didn’t touch or kiss or anything and we wore masks at the place she took me to eat. Anyways, I don’t think I’m gay. I am so broken feeling. I feel weird and sad and repulsive. I tried everyone so maybe I just don’t like anyone romantically? I don’t know.