Confusion about PIV...

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MistahCFS
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Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by MistahCFS »

Hi Scarleteen!

I am a 21 year old cisgender heterosexual virgin male and I would like to ask you about something. Before I do, I would like to thank you for your work and for passing on such a wealth of knowledge to the next generation! :)

I recently had a wet dream. There was foreplay aka oral sex on both our parts. And then came the moment of PIV. When we started I did not notice any pleasure or enjoyment from the girl. We both mostly looked at each other's bodies and smiled at each other. Afterwards I remembered that I shouldn't leave the clitoris alone, so I started to caress it while the PIV was going on. She had physical and vocal reactions that were positive, but something told me that it wasn't maximal and I wanted/needed to have maximal for my partner. So I thought I would stop penetration and just continue manually. At that point, it felt and sounded like maximum pleasure.

The next morning I wondered how much of my dream had any basis in reality, so I read your articles. Thanks to you, I learned that the pleasure areas are located at the clitoris, the vulva and the first third of the vagina. So I started thinking, if the pleasure areas are best reached and stimulated by hand and mouth, why do most people do it the "traditional" way? Why is penis size a common theme in sexuality if the potential girl feels nothing when I'm inside her, deep or not?

I'm beginning to think that if I want both of us to have really good sex so that we both go after it happily, then only oral and manual things can be expected and given. And PIV is only good/useful if I want to start a family with someone. It takes a few seconds of merging the puzzle pieces until I ejaculate to impregnate my future lover.

Also, I know that pleasure and orgasm are not the same thing, and that there is good sex without orgasms, but if that is true, why is it that most of men's masculinity (if not all), comes down to how godlike we are in bed?

Honestly, despite being a virgin I think I can say for myself that PIV would be one of the most enjoyable but not the best sexual activity for me. But because of this dream I am starting to feel embarrassed and ashamed because I don't want to do something that would not cause any positive reaction to my future partner.

Can I ask you to clear the clutter in my head? Thank you very much!

Much love,
MistahCFS
Amanda B
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by Amanda B »

Hey there MistahCFS,

It sounds like you had quite an enlightening wet dream. You're absolutely right that the clitoris plays a major role in pleasure for people who have them. It's also true that many people with vaginas don't get a whole lot out of, as you said, PIV, or penetrative sex, without some additional stimulation.

To answer your questions, penis size is often a concern for people due to the prevalence of porn showing unrealistic body standards, toxic masculinity culture, and a lack of accurate information. When you think about it, penis size is all about comparison, but what are people comparing? Many people have only seen a handful of penises in real life, but many more in porn. You can read more about the fascination with penis size in our article, Shown Actual Size: A Penis Shape & Size Lowdown.

As for why masculinity has so much to do with sexual "skills", I really like this quote from our article, Man to Man: On Sex, Masculinity, and Being Yourself:
Because sex is such a big part of our culture’s expectations for men, people can sometimes act in ways that make it seem like our worth is defined by who we’re having sex with and whether our attractions are reciprocated. This can really raise the stakes for initiating sex with somebody or asking somebody out, since it can start feeling like a reflection on who you are as a man, rather than just the individual desires of the person who you asked.
Hope this helps clear the clutter!
MistahCFS
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by MistahCFS »

Dear Scarleteen!

I would like to thank you for answering my questions about size and masculinity. Unfortunately I still have a lot of confusion in my head which manifests itself in the following questions:

If it's best to have clitoral stimulation with PIV, then why in my wet dream did I seem to get a bigger reaction with just clitoral stimulation than in the combo?

If the other two-thirds of the vagina is numb, and women feel absolutely nothing, then why does humanity still do it the "traditional" way?

If clitoral stimulation is where I can get the most response, why not just pleasure my partner with only clitoral stimulation? And if she really wants PIV, although after your information I highly doubt it, with what frequency should I do the clitoral stimulation? Is it enough for half the time or all the time?

And finally, how much am I right with the following: PIV is ONLY USEFUL if you want to start a family?

Thank you,
MistahCFS
Latha
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by Latha »

Hi there, MistahCFS!

I wouldn't say that PIV sex is only useful if you want to start a family. People with vulvas do tend to find clitoral stimulation more pleasurable than vaginal stimulation alone, but that doesn't mean that the latter doesn't feel good at all. For one, PIV sex can stimulate the internal parts of the clitoris. Plus, it tends to be enjoyable for people with penises- making a partner feel good can be pleasurable in its own right. Also, it's not that women can't feel anything in the upper parts of the vagina- they can tell something is there, so PIV sex can cause a sensation of 'fullness' that people like.

But it's true that there's a disproportionate focus on PIV sex in our culture- it gets treated as the main or most important kind of sex. This is caused by a few different things, like beliefs that sex should only be for procreation, a lack of knowledge about women's anatomy, sexism, and heterosexism.

Ultimately, there is no one kind of sex that is the 'best'. It all depends on the preferences of the people involved. We should also remember that sexual pleasure isn't only about the clitoris or the vagina or any other single body part- it's an experience that involves the whole body and the mind. (This is why I wouldn't recommend only focusing on clitoral stimulation.)

So, let's consider your dream. Dreams don't always correspond exactly to reality, but there are indeed women who always prefer clitoral stimulation to combined clitoral-vaginal stimulation. However, that isn't true for everyone. This is why communication is great- you don't need all the answers beforehand, you can just ask your partner about what feels good for them.

In fact, I have the same advice for your question about frequency: ask your partner, and adjust as needed.

I hope this helps!
MistahCFS
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by MistahCFS »

Dear Scarleteen!

Thank you so much for your reply! I would like to apologize for being able to reply only now.

Unfortunately, something happened to me recently that has caused even more confusion. Let me paint you the picture.

I was recently talking to someone on Discord. The subject was the female orgasm. We were trying to figure out why women say that there is good sex without orgasms, but also why there are so many women who complain about the lack of them. Just then the following analogy came to mind: "You might get a thrill when the roller coaster goes up to the top but you'll be disappointed when the roller coaster doesn't drop but goes back to the starting point." I then asked how to get to "the big oh" without the effort. Because we know that if you push it, you won't have much success. The answer was to care about it, but not focusing on it. So I turn to you with the following questions:

If a woman is most sexually satisfied when she orgasms every time, wouldn't it be easier to take intercourse out of the picture completely? The reason I ask is because, in most cases, you hear/read that a woman feels pain or nothing during intercourse, and the only guaranteed way for a woman to come is cunnilingus/manual.

If there are apparently more complaining women than satisfied, all of them saying that the clitoris was left the dust, and if orgasm really is the goal for women, this the only way the average man can prove his manhood, then why does humanity say that there is good sex without orgasm?

Why is it that in every single eroticism, whether written, audio or visual, there is always intercourse happening if it does not provoke good things to the woman, only pain or nothing?

How ashamed should I feel that for me, intercourse (if it annoys you that use the word so many times, I apologize) and blowjob are my most common fantasies, if they are insignificant for women? I am not saying here that giving oral isn't a big fantasy of mine, but as I want to be the best lover possible, I don't want to participate in an activity, which does not provoke any positive things, for my potential partner.

I know you said in your reply that intercourse is not only good for starting a family, but why does my brain tell me that it is only good for starting a family?

Finally, an off-topic question: if the first third of the vagina has the most nerve endings, then a smaller penis would be able to satisfy all desires perfectly, no?

Thank you very much for your answer,
MistahCFS
Heather
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by Heather »

Hey there.

I think that something that makes answering the kinds of questions you're asking impossible is that "women" -- and it sounds like you expressly mean cisgender women -- is a group of BILLIONS of people. Because of that, trying to sort out what works and doesn't, what's good and isn't for "women" sexually is an impossible task. Billions of people are just way, way too different: just having a gender and some of the same body parts in common isn't actually as much to have in common as it may sound, because gender is still very diverse among cisgender women as is how those billions of people experience sex and their bodies. Same goes for concepts like "female orgasm" or "desire." Same also goes for things like suggesting what the "goal" of sex is for "women."

There's intercourse in so much because with the exception of some of the few indigenous cultures left in the world, we all live in a very heteronormative, patriarchal culture. Whatever enjoyment people of any gender do or don't have when it comes to intercourse is really to the side of that. I can't say why you think intercourse is only for creating a pregnancy. That's not why most people do it most of the time, even people who want a family. It is something, like so many other genital sexual activities, that does feel good for a lot of people, especially when everyone taking part in it together is really centered on mutual pleasure and not just themselves or a script they got from somewhere else. (And yes, people with vaginas can potentially have intercourse feel good from just about any size of penis or dildo.)

But here's the thing: no one is going to be able to tell you about any of these things for all women. Even generalizing is often not very helpful because human sexuality, including among cisgender women, is just too diverse.

Instead, what we need to do, now matter the body parts or gender of our sexual partners, is focus on our given partner or partners at the time: what do they, as individuals like? What don't they like? How do certain activities feel best for them? What do they want most from sex with us? If orgasm is part of that picture, what gets them there? What doesn't? What do they like to do whether or not orgasm is involved? What are the things we both enjoy doing together? What are the things that maybe one of us does, but another doesn't, and are there any ways we can each be part of those things the other likes that we can enjoy, too?

It's also important to bear in mind that because sexuality is so diverse, as are the relationships or interactions it occurs between, if you have the idea that any one person can fulfill every sexual desire or do everything someone enjoys or wants, you'll want to toss that open out. That's just not usually how this works. Instead, when we have a partner, we will usually tend to find that there's a bunch of stuff we both like, or where our desires mesh, and then a bunch of places where they don't, and some things we like a given person just isn't into.

Get what I'm saying?
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
MistahCFS
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by MistahCFS »

Dear Scarleteen!

I would like to apologise for only being able to ask my questions with too many generalisations. This was because sexuality is one of the most important aspects of my life, which is why I want to put this puzzle together.

I would like to solve this complicated formula once and for all, which is why I am writing down the picture I have created in my mind, and I would like you to tell me which parts of it are true and which are not, and why they are real/unreal.

When the first time comes, I can count one hundred percent on mutual oral/manual. After that comes the intercourse of indeterminate duration, which will most likely either hurt my partner or she won't feel anything (all with a condom of course). The intercourse will only happen, just so we can say, that we (or me/her) lost our virginites. After that, I can only expect oral/manual things with my hypothetical current or future partner, since piv is more likely to cause discomfort or no sensation for women, a woman is more satisfied sexually if she has an orgasm every time than if she has an orgasm 25, 50, 75 or 99 percent of the time, and I don't think anyone who wants to be a good lover would engage in an act that only he/she/they can feel good about and the other can't. (I write these because there are more complaints than satisfaction reports (whether incoulding "the big O" in these complaints or not) on the internet and in various media). And one can only expect intercourse again, when the couple wants to start a family. A couple seconds, then the man ejaculates, and then comes the "blessed state".

I would like to apologize again for this generalized summary, but I feel that society has lied with all kinds of erotica, whether written/recorded on audio and/or video by amateur(s) or written/recorded on audio and/or video by professional(s), and I would like to know the truth.

Honestly, I am extremely ashamed for having a fantasy which "usually" does harm or nothing for women. I know, you written this before, that that's not always the case, I still have my doubts unfortunately.

So, how right/delusional am I? How ashamed should I be?

Thank you very much for your help,
MistahCFS
Andy
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by Andy »

Hi MistahCFS!

I’m wondering what exactly do you mean by solving this formula/puzzle mean to you? And why do you think you feel like you have to solve it? Because I think it’s not helping you to think about sex as something that needs to be solved and has just one right solution. Because it literally doesn't. That generalized picture of sex you describe is just one of a huge number of ways sex can look, not something where any given part of it is automatically true or untrue.
Because, as it was said in the last responses, not us and not anyone else who isn’t your partner can tell you, what will they like or want. Essentially, they will be the only ones knowing that and the only way to get that information is asking them.
You can read more about the reasons why in Heather’s last response. But in case a metaphor is helpful, you can imagine inviting a friend for a sleepover and thinking about what to order for dinner. Statistically, the most popular food might be pizza, but unless you ask that friend what they want to eat at the moment, you won’t know if that’s what they want. And asking beforehand is way better than finding out later you bought something your friend won’t like or can’t eat. Does that make sense?

Moving forward, I think it might be helpful to talk more about shame that you keep bringing up, as it could be what’s fueling your other worries as well. To answer your question, no, you don’t have to feel ashamed. We believe no one needs to feel ashamed as shame is not very beneficial emotion when it comes to sex or anything else, as it speaks more about expectations and prejudice both yourself and society put on you, than about who you really are. Do you have any sense where do these feelings of shame might be coming from?
MistahCFS
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by MistahCFS »

Dear Amanda B, Latha, Heather, Andy and all the other members of Scarleteen!

I would like to thank you all for your help and understanding so far. This topic is really important because as Andy mentioned I feel a sense of shame. Maybe you are right and it would be better to dig deeper into this. Let me tell you my story:

I hit puberty quite young and I was already dreaming about the many facets of sexuality and having a sex life that not only I but my partner would be satisfied with. Five years later I was bold enough to plunge into the world of erotica in baby steps. It was then that I learned that oral sex existed, and it was then that I first encountered the concept of orgasm, which I quickly grasped/learnt through the internet. It was also at this time that I learned that anal sex existed. At that time I had the idea that sex was an act of indefinite duration in which there was at least one orgasm between the two parties. I was a bit naive when forming that last sentence, but not in the sense that I thought all aspects of pornography were real because I could already distinguish between reality and fiction, in other words I knew that there were parts of pornography that were real and parts that were not.

Afterwards the internet threw up articles for me in which more and more women express their complaints about the lack of orgasms on their part. That's when I discovered the clitoris in female anatomy. I admit honestly it was easy for me to find it both drawn and seen on screen in female genitalia. At such times I thought that I would do clitoral stimulation during PIV with a frequency that suited my partner.

Finally, around the beginning of 2023, I became interested in how PIV sex feels for women. At this time I have only seen/heard that most women either feel pain or nothing at all. Then I researched on some sites how true this is, some denied it but others confirmed it.

Honestly I'm sceptical about the refutations, because I've been influenced by past readings to believe in the idea that orgasm is the most important aspect of sexuality and the one hundred percent way to achieve it is oral/manual. I then started to research how useless the intercourse was, as I was/am too focused on the orgasmic aspect and threw everything else out the window. Anyway, if you think about it, it's totally understandable, because on the internet and in various media only the orgasm aspect is highlighted. Then I found comments that they simply loved it but for some reason the last straw was the skepticism, because there were comments that said in a nutshell that for them, intercourse was just a cherry on top of the cake of sexuality. That's when the wheels started to turn, because why have a cherry if you're happy with a cake?

Then the shame started to set in because I want to be a good partner at all costs, and both media influence and my past perspective tells me that the only way to do that is to make your partner come every time. In this case, I thought/think, why would a woman, whether cisgender or transgender, engage in intercourse if she is more than likely not going to orgasm from it? True, either I or my partner can perform clitoral stimulation during intercourse, but to me, if intercourse really is useless it's a little bit like sprinkling sugar on a brick. And I've taken anal sex out of the picture a bit.

Because of this, if it was written to me or if I would hear from someone that they would like to have PIV with me, skepticism comes into play and asks what for? Because of this I have a great sense of shame, because I don't want to be a good lover by engaging in acts that do not elicit anything positive (most importantly "the big O") from my potential future partner. These thoughts have made me disinclined to even chase sexual thoughts or read/listen/watch erotica, as it almost always involves intercourse, and therefore the thought process and sense of shame makes me feel disinterested. True, I can look for something with only oral and manual acts but it doesn't feel right.
I've known for a while what my train of thought should be thanks to Amanda B and Latha, but now I've turned to you again because of a recent conversation (thanks again Heather and Andy).

These are the reasons I can't put down the skepticism and shame.

Thank you very, very much for your help,
MistahCFS
Sam W
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Re: Confusion about PIV...

Unread post by Sam W »

Hi MistahCFS,

I actually want to focus on this sentence: "Then the shame started to set in because I want to be a good partner at all costs." That's a very good thing to want to do! But trying to plan out how exactly you'll engage in sex, and what sexual activities will or won't be wanted by a partner before you've even met a partner is not going to help you in that goal.

The reason for that, as Heather mentioned, is that there is not one set of sexual activities that everyone of a given gender finds, or doesn't find, enjoyable. That's why you kept finding information that seemed to contradict itself; one woman might find vaginal sex really boring, or even painful, another might like it but not consider it her favorite, and another might actually consider it her favorite part of sex. Three different answers from three different people, all of them equally true. And, most importantly, all of them equally unhelpful in figuring out what your future partner might want.

The thing is, trying to predict and puzzle out what specific acts a partner will want during sex is energy that would be better spent on learning the skills that we actually DO lead to positive sexual experiences: things like open communication, trust, respect, and more than a little curiosity about your partner and what they like and don't like.

Too, while orgasm can be enjoyable, lots of people can, and do, have pleasurable sexual interactions where one or both people don't orgasm. So another favor you can do to yourself and a future partner is to try and let go of the idea that a partner reaching orgasm is the most important element of sex.

As far as letting go of that shame, once you stop assuming what a future partner will or won't want and figure you'll discover that when you get there, I suspect a lot of it will go away. Too, having sexual fantasies--or enjoying sexual media--that contain things our partners don't want to or can't engage in isn't something to be ashamed of. The fantasies we have and the sexual media we enjoy can sometimes give us ideas of things to explore with a partner, but they can also just stay firmly in the realm of the imaginary; fantasizing about something doesn't mean we have to do it later on.

Does all that make sense?
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