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» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sexual Ethics and Politics » Help...? I view sex negatively (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Help...? I view sex negatively
SkinneeJay
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Ok, I'm new here. I'm not sure if it belongs here. If not, please move it. Thank you.

Now, I'm a typical 14-years old boy. But, something has been bothering me. The more I grow, my view on sex only gets darker. I thought it would slowly change. But it got even worse. A good way to describe you how sex looks like to me is this quote from a user in AVEN (I got the link to this site from there):

quote:

I won't say that I hated sex, but I couldn't understand how people could live with themselves with the knowledge they'd done such a thing. And this was before any trauma or abuse, I just couldn't see sex as enjoyable. It seemed like something you did to someone, it seemed angry and violent. The looks and sounds people make during sex seem eerily close to those made while in extreme pain, and as a repulsed asexual I personally couldn't see sex occuring in anything but a near-rape situation. No particular reason for this. I wasn't taught that sex was bad, I go the whole "when a mommy and daddy love each other very much" spiel. That's just how I saw it.

For information, I have no past in sexual abuse or violence. I never watched pornography. I know no one who got abused. The closest I got to witness sexual violence visually as a scene in "A Clockwork Orange" I once saw in some school for gifted kids, we learned about filming. Even that scene I only remember vaguely. So, any help from you guys? Thanks.
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JamsessionVT
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What kind of help are you looking for, SkinneeJay?

I will say that while sex is certainly not abnormal or disgusting when it's done consensually and between two trusting individuals, you are not the first nor the last person to feel this way.

Can I ask if you've ever felt sexually attracted to or even had a basic physical attraction to another person (male or female)? Do you have any interest in being physical with another person? Is it just the idea of intercourse that seems off to you, or do these feelings encompass all sexual contact?

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SkinneeJay
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I do feel sexual attraction, but I suppress it. I did have a crush though, but it's a different story. I have suppressed my sexual desires for so long, I don't think I can even let myself get aroused. Although it's something that makes me feel good.

I don't want to get physical with other people. I view the physical world as meaningless. I can't even watch kiss scenes in movies and I tend to feel detached when hugging someone.

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Idir
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If you do feel sexual attraction, do you feel physically comfortable suppressing it? You even mentioned that it makes you feel good!

I mean, it's very natural to want to have these urges. (Ugh. I sound like my physician...)

Also, you can't really "suppress your desires", you can just not fulfill them...

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orca
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So how do you feel about this? That is, do you wish things were different or are you happy with the way you are? If you had to define your sexual identity, how would you define it?

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SkinneeJay
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I feel sexual attraction, and I at least used to feel suppressing it is a good thing. These days, I automatically don't let myself enjoy attraction or physical appearance.

I guess I do wish things were a little different. I wish I could be more comfortable with it and that it wouldn't bother me anymore.

As for my sexual identity, heterosexual. Normal, nothing new.

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Idir
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But as you're voluntarily suppressing your urges, you could simply stop doing so, as you say that you wish you could be comfortable with it...

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orca
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(Idir, these things aren't just "switches" you can turn on or off. Human sexuality is very complex. Imagine if someone said the same thing to you about your sexual orientation. It'd be pretty ridiculous, as well as hurt your feelings, right?)

SkinneeJay, I ask about sexual identity since you said you had been to AVEN so I wasn't sure if you ID as asexual or some variant of asexual. I might also add that other sexual identities and orientations aren't "new" either, except that the labels may be newer. People have had all kinds of different sexual attractions since the beginning; it's only that society hasn't really had a label for most of them until the 20th century. Even the label of "homosexual" didn't exist until the late 19th century, yet people have engaged in sexual activity with partners of the same sex and have had feelings, attractions, and desires for people of the same sex for millenia. (See this article for more on the history of homosexuality.)

When you say you want to be more comfortable with it, what exactly do you mean? More comfortable with sex in general? Also, why do you wish to be more comfortable with it? For yourself or because you feel pressured to do so by others (society, peers, family, etc.)?

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Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.--Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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SkinneeJay
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This doesn't really have anything to do with asexuality. I just hang around AVEN because it's a very good place to be in.

Now, the thing is, it just doesn't feel "right". The cliche'd view on sex that it's "dirty", "immoral" and all of that stuff. Both attraction and the idea of intercourse. I feel bad about physical attraction, and it's a big part of my self-loathing (a different story). I want to feel comfortable with it fir myself. Sex is pretty much everywhere, and I don't want to close myself because of it. It'll be a stupid reason and too much to miss. I do it for my own good - So I will feel good and right with ti.

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bluejumprope
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This is a complex issue, and I'm not sure exactly what would best serve you, but I wanted to toss a few things your way. So, if anything feels off the mark, feel free to ignore [Smile] . Generally, I think this sort of issue is changed over time, with a lot of personal examination, questioning of values, and through encountering alternative perspectives that feel right to you.

I wonder if really educating yourself about sex could be helpful--immersing yourself in facts and a safe atmosphere that perceives sexuality positively (similar, I imagine, to what you've been getting from AVEN). This whole site is a great resource for that, but I'll link you to some specific articles at the bottom that I think would be good to read.

Even if you haven't directly encountered sexual abuse, I would say that in our culture, unethical/unhealthy sex, or sex where there is a substantial power imbalance is often the norm. So, knowing that healthy sex is often very different than what's in the media, can be reassuring.

I have a few questions, if you want to answer them. Do you feel like it's wrong for other people to have sexual attractions, or just you? What do you fear your sexual attractions reveal about you? Do you have any thoughts about where you got those ideas about sex being dirty and immoral?

Let's Get Metaphysical: The Etiquette of Entry
Is intercourse a violence or a violation?
Reciprocity, Reloaded
An Immodest Proposal
10 of the Best Things You Can Do for Your Sexual Self (at Any Age)

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Idir
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quote:
Originally posted by orca:
(Idir, these things aren't just "switches" you can turn on or off. Human sexuality is very complex. Imagine if someone said the same thing to you about your sexual orientation. It'd be pretty ridiculous, as well as hurt your feelings, right?)

SkinneeJay, I ask about sexual identity since you said you had been to AVEN so I wasn't sure if you ID as asexual or some variant of asexual. I might also add that other sexual identities and orientations aren't "new" either, except that the labels may be newer. People have had all kinds of different sexual attractions since the beginning; it's only that society hasn't really had a label for most of them until the 20th century. Even the label of "homosexual" didn't exist until the late 19th century, yet people have engaged in sexual activity with partners of the same sex and have had feelings, attractions, and desires for people of the same sex for millenia. (See this article for more on the history of homosexuality.)

When you say you want to be more comfortable with it, what exactly do you mean? More comfortable with sex in general? Also, why do you wish to be more comfortable with it? For yourself or because you feel pressured to do so by others (society, peers, family, etc.)?

Well, but he mentioned that he actually has physical sexual urges, he just doesn't feel emotionally comfortable releasing them.
So that's very different from homosexuality. It's not like I'm straight, and just acting gay.

(And, homosexuality wasn't only around for millenia, but since the appearance of the animal Kingdom [Smile] )

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SkinneeJay
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Answering Bluejumprope's questions:

1. I don't think it's wrong for people to have sex. However, I do prefer to at least not know they do it. I can't really imagine myself taking part in a sexual intercourse-even with a romantic partner.
2. Sexual attraction simply clashes with my own view on the world. I want to know people for who they are. Looks shouldn't mean much, and sexual attraction is sadly based on outside looks.
3. My negative opinions on sex grew slowly overtime. I don't think there's something that stimulated it. It only became worse though.

I read the first 2 articles. I'm gonna read the rest. Thanks a lot.

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Heather
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One piece I'm missing in this discussion, SkinneeJay, is some background on your early childhood and pre-adolescent (and now) learned ideas and attitudes around sexuality, sex and desires.

In other words, often someone feeling the way you are right now, in your situation, has been impacted by experiences or attitudes -- in your family, through peers, in your larger community and culture -- around these issues which are often a big part of feeling this way.

Want to talk a bit about all of that?

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SkinneeJay
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I'm only 14 years old... I think I forgot to add that. I guess it has something to do with how sex is considered "perverted" and all. Sex is largely a topic not talked about in my family. Although my mother isn't negative about it all. I am the problem.
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Heather
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I did notice your age.

Here's the thing: sexual attitudes really don't exist in a vacuum. What we think about sex is largely learned, even if what that learning is comes from learning that it's something not to talk about. And total silence around any topic does tend to send the message that something is shameful or untouchable.

Where have you heard that sex is perverted? Heck, where have you even heard that language? See what I mean?

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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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Heather
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One thing I do also want to add is that our own personal and sexual development also influences this.

For instance, we'll often see and hear children of a certain age express that kissing is grosser-then-gross, but just a few years later, feel very differently. So, in part, it may even be that your own developmental timetable is such that the idea of sex feels like way too much, too soon for you, which is the case for some people around your age, absolutely.

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SkinneeJay
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Where did I hear sex is perverted? No real place. I don't think there was a special place where I learned it all from. My mother isn't really negative on the topic though. She onces tried to talk to me on the puberty thingie but I refused to talk. She also said sex is a beautiful thing, and I found myself disagreeing. Especially I talked a bit about that "Choke" novel. She was afraid I would get a more negative view on it, I think. Because if I know too much about it a young age I might have a negative attitude towards it... Well, I do a know a little more than the normal intercourse. I know a bit about S&M and stuff. Sex toys and all the other crazy things.
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PenguinBoy
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Hi skineejay!

I really feel for you and hope I can help.

Grabbing stuff from what you've said so far I heard that you feel a sense of self-loathing (you said that's another story, but I think it could be really relevant). You view sexual-attraction as entirely physical. You've spent a lot of time in an environment where it isn't ok to talk about sex. And you feel conflicted between the attraction you feel and the attraction (or lack of it) that you want to feel.

I first want to say that as far as I've seen there isn't really "normal" intercourse, or sexuality; sex has been way less consistent. People's personalities really define them and the sexual part of that personality is really just as unique as the rest. I do say that to provide a bit of clarity but also I think it'll be helpful to think over the idea that sexuality and sexual-choices are completely customisable, and for whatever you feel you can always decide what to do with your own body and for that to be ok, and it's customisable to the extent of there being a lot of freedom not just on whether to be sexual, but also how to be sexual.

As someone who's also been in a home where sex isn't talked about, I felt a great sense of guilt as a sort of after-shock to a number of my big sexual milestones, and surrounding my own sexual questioning and learning.

What played a big role in my situation was identity, how I presented myself and essentially "me" was what I was able to communicate to people, and what I was able to talk about, which at the time was NOT sexual attraction (and especially not specific kinds of attraction). So attraction felt invasive as a part of my then identity. However, as I've said, sexuality and identity are customisable. You can tell people what you want, have as much privacy as you want and embrace any new image of who you are, whenever you want. I came to realise that over time and thought it over, like a developing mantra, until i did feel more at ease to reassess who I was.

As per your objections to sexual activity itself, sexuality and sexual activity are not in any way violent, or anything to do with rape(which is about power, not attraction and certainly not appreciation). Bad dynamics can work their way into many sexual relationships, but at the same time, sex can happen without those dynamics and can happen with positive communication, empathy, patience and understanding. What it's really good to do, to try and heed that, is just to look out for examples of when it's good. You seem aware that there's negative examples out there, but there are also positive ones. It's good just to keep an eye out for those representations and notice yourself thinking "I like that", because you know how much you dislike violence and aggression. That's something that can grow on you.

The other thing you mentioned, was that you felt sex was superficial. Sure, by looking at someone you may find them attractive and that's in itself ok, but also it's only one part of a puzzle.

Sex and good sexual experiences can come when we just "click" with someone and feel comfortable to share our sexuality with and simply do whatever we have come to feel comfortable with (and nothing more).

I can be sexually attracted to the way people look, or talk, or smell, or how they express their sexuality, or express their beliefs but that attraction is only enabled by interpersonal factors, which go way beyond the physical. So, I feel physically attracted to people when I also feel at ease with them, when I like who they are.

When sexual activity is hypothetical, or in our heads that's fantasy and is an expression of our own sexuality to ourselves and a way of having fun. It's easily influenced by loads of cultural things, including the positive sex we do want to have. It also doesn't discount anyone's feelings because we're not actually interacting with them but with ourselves.

If having positive sex, that involves all people being hugely attracted to each other and really taking pleasure in each other's bodies and the mutual understanding which allows that to happen. There's nothing negative about enjoying it, just like music, or flowers, or food.

Over all, I've said a lot, but the major jist is that positive sex is possible, your feelings don't need to be unwelcomed and it's completely possible to resolve the different influences on your sexuality, in a really positive way. You can start off with a sexual attraction that can manifest itself positively, as part of an identity you're happy with, and you have every right to shape that identity around your own personal preferences morally and sexually, and feel better prepared to have a sex life, if you wanted to, which expresses your "self" and the pleasure you'll gain through physical, emotional and idealogical realisation.

Like Heather has said how you feel, at 14, about many things is under change, it's kinda scary but also a lot of those changes can make life feel a lot better. For me this was one of those things and truly exploring the parts of me I did like and did believe in, and feeling ok about allowing those to grow and change how I expressed my sexuality has only been good.

[ 05-02-2009, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: PenguinBoy ]

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Jill2000Plus
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Sexual pleasure and the desire for sexual activity aren't necessarily based on thinking somebody looks good, it can just be about really liking someone and thinking they care about you and will listen to you so that sexual activity can be mutually satisfying and enjoyable. I will say that I used to have these kinds of worries about sex (I'm a woman, I was about 13-14 at the time) and it did come from the way it was often presented as corrupting and/or depraved in the media, there's a delightful misogyny at work there, and a big bunch of superstition, these views tend to operate on the presumption that women don't want sexual pleasure and it's nasty men that make them do things that lead to orgasm even though they'd rather be knitting and drinking tea while wearing elaborate petticoats, or the equally problematic assumption that woman=death and that they tempt men into the weakening of the moral character and body that sex supposedly is (I'm not trying to say these are things you actively think, just that they are arguably the basis for this kind of thinking, along with other things, it's a long discussion).

About being injured, sexual activity doesn't per se cause injury, it can, if someone is too rough, if the partners aren't aroused properly (particularly the woman), or if STI prevention is not used, and if you don't want it, sexual activity is going to be miserable (same goes for pregnancy), but it can be physically, mentally and emotionally safe and enjoyable, also not everyone actually moans during sexual activity, and even if someone does that doesn't mean that they are in pain, it's just that orgasm is a very intense (in a pleasurable way) sensation for many and they just want to let out how good it feels, to express it vocally. Some giggle during sexual acts, laughing with pleasure, and some are quite quiet, breathing quickened and a little irregular, so there's a diversity of responses.

There are other sexual acts than intercourse and S&M, intercourse may be commonplace, and there's nothing wrong with it (indeed it can be very enjoyable for both partners if they both desire it), but that doesn't mean it's what everyone has to do, or that all other sexual activity is "kinky" by comparison. Sex toys, I don't think should be described as "crazy", they're just another way of having fun. If somebody said (when you were younger) that you should only play by running and jumping and dancing, and never want a ball to catch and throw, or a doll or a cuddly toy or a model fire engine or to go on the jungle gym, because those things are just weird, then wouldn't you think they were being rather silly, wouldn't you want a good reason why they thought these things were weird, something better than "well my parents said so" or "my instincts say so" or "that's what everyone around me says is the truth", or "they just are, OK!" As PenguinBoy said, there is nothing wrong with enjoying mutually consensual sexual activity with a partner who is also enjoying it (or masturbation for that matter), they are things we can do for fun and because we like ourselves and others and want to have fun and feel pleasure, and show affection.

As another note, the individual I'm most sexually attracted to at this point I feel that way about because they are a feminist, friendly, lovely individual about my age who makes me euphoric just to be around them, so yeah, I'd totally do sexual stuff with them, because I love them and I trust them. See my point?

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SkinneeJay
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Big thanks to the comments from Jill200Plus and PenguinBoy. I really enjoyed reading your comments, and I can see you worked hard on them. However, sex is still too blurry in my mind. It's still not something I can view positively, and I think it's time to give up and just reconcile with it. I won't give lectures to anyone on why it's wrong, but I can't hop with everyone and love it. And it still seems very violent. Still, I appreciate the hard work that was put into this thread.
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Heather
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It's sounding very much to me like given your age and how you're feeling, it just doesn't make sense to think so much about this right now.

I will say that most people -- when both people involved are feeling desire, do both want any kind of sex, and are both thinking of mutual pleasure, not just their own -- do not tend to express sex as feeling violent to them. But that's something tough to explain in the abstract, and one of those things that if and when the time is right for you and a partner, will be something you'll find out for yourself.

However, again, no one has to "love sex" they aren't having or have interest in having. And it'd be tough to do that without experiences, anyway, just like it'd be tough for me to love waterskiing not having tried it. But fixating on something you aren't doing, don't have interest in doing, and just aren't at yet? There's just no need for that, and I doubt that's likely to be of benefit to you. Why not focus on the parts of your life that ARE actual right now and ARE where you're at?

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SkinneeJay
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Well, it's a little hard not to focus on sex, considering it's pretty much everywhere. But it's really better to just leave it alone. It's not an essential part of life, after all, is it?
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Heather
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Well, let me posit some alternate scenarios I deal with in terms of things that are pervasive.

I'm vegan, and meat-eating is everywhere I look. But I don't want to eat meat, and it's not that tough for me not to think about meat, meat, meat.

I'm anti-violence, and violence is everywhere, but again, I get to choose what I focus on. If I fixated on violence 24/7 -- which I could easily do given how it's everywhere -- I'd drive myself nuts.

I don't drive, but cars are everywhere, people who drive cars are everywhere, ads for cars are nonstop. But again, I get to choose how much of that I think about.

I have no interest in being married, but married people are all over the place, people talk about or ask about marriage a lot, all kinds of advertising and media talks about marriage as if it's a given. But it's not for me and that isn't me, so what I focus on is what IS me, and it's pretty easy. And if and when someone around me wants to talk marriage, I always get to opt out or say that it's just not something I have interest in or feel like talking about.

Overall, sexuality -- not sex, or enacting sexuality -- IS thought by most schools of psychology and human life to be one essential part of who we are, of our lives, of many different parts. However, what our sexuality is, to us, varies a lot, and whatever our sexual nature is, as individuals, is what's essential, not what others are doing, not having any kind of sex we don't want or don't have interest in. And it sounds to me like yours, right now, isn't something you have any interest in sharing with others or expressing, and is NOT a big part of your life: honoring where you're at in that way would be what's essential. Does that make sense?

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SkinneeJay
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I see your point now. It's just that you see everyone's celebrating it, and you also want to enjoy it too and understand it with them. I think that's where my problem is. And maybe my inability to accept myself (That's not something I want to talk about right now). Either way, this site has been a great help and I'm going to continue visiting. Maybe I'll find my out, haha.
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Jill2000Plus
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Incidentally, I just want to say that I'm not trying to convince you to have sex you don't want, at all, I'm just explaining why it's not actually wrong to do it, also, mutually consensual, desired and enjoyed sexual activity isn't what I'd call violent (I have beefs with the term as it is often used to object to physical self defense), but if you don't want to be engaging in sexual activity now then pushing yourself to have it won't be fun or enjoyable. And even if you never decide you want to have sex, that doesn't mean you'll always find it disturbing, necessarily, I'm sure it's possible to not want to have sex while also recognizing that others aren't wronging each other or hurting themselves by having it, just like you can not want to engage in a particular sexual act without thinking everyone who does it must have something wrong with them.

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Always knock before entering my room when I am in there alone, as I may be doing all sorts of wonderfully thrilling things that I'd rather you didn't see.

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SkinneeJay
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Well, this isn't about me being forced to have sex. I know I'm only 14 and it won't happen anytime soon. Or at least not this year. However, I still think I need to accept the conept.
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Jill2000Plus
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I more meant that you shouldn't pressure yourself to have it, though definitely any potential sexual partner should be looking out to see if you show signs of reluctance, or if it seems that you're just saying you want to do it 'cause you think you have to though you actually don't want to. Others shouldn't pressure you to have it either, but you also don't have to put that pressure on yourself. This site is probably a good place to be to find an accepting but non-pressuring attitude to sexual activity. It is worth remembering to look out for the good stuff, to notice when someone is happily post orgasmic (and post can be two weeks after and posting about it on this forum, I'm not actually referring to carefully checking everyone to see what they've been doing for the past ten minutes), or enjoying an emotional closeness that they express physically with their partner, to see when everyone is being treated as equal and they are engaging in only the mutually consensual sexual acts they want to engage in, with those who they listen to and talk to, making sure each other truly want to be doing what they're doing, these scenarios do exist, and while it's definitely good to look out to make sure no-one is being exploited, assaulted or raped, there's good as well as bad.

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Always knock before entering my room when I am in there alone, as I may be doing all sorts of wonderfully thrilling things that I'd rather you didn't see.

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SkinneeJay
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Well, I obviously won't have a potential sex partner at the age of 14. But I am talking a lot with a girl recently and maybe he'll go out. Dunno. I think, now, my problem is that I can't see how girls can enjoy sex. For me, it doesn't make sense that they would want to have it.
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Heather
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I think given your age and where you are at with all of this, thinking about how girls feel about sex when you're just at the asking-out stage is seriously premature.

But if you want to talk about what you're missing in understanding why women would enjoy any number of kinds of sex, we can certainly do that. It may be about you just not understanding how our bodies work, or why people who enjoy sex do, it may even be about some internalized sexism, believe it or not. So, if you want to gab about that, we can. It'd probably be easiest to have that discussion, though, after reading a little bit more on your part if the links you already read didn't make that clear.

I'd suggest:
http://www.scarleteen.com/article/advice/what_are_some_of_the_benefits_of_having_sex
http://www.scarleteen.com/article/sexuality/yield_for_pleasure
http://www.scarleteen.com/article/advice/why_would_intercourse_feel_good_for_women (that one is just about intercourse, not all sex, but still useful)
http://www.scarleteen.com/article/body/genderpalooza_a_sex_gender_primer (and I included that one, because I think some of this may have to do with ideas about gender)
http://www.scarleteen.com/node/2442

But I also want to make sure that continuing to have these discussions really is right for you right now. Sometimes, too much information when we're feeling freaked out about something we don't even have to deal with isn't helpful.

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Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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SkinneeJay
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Well, I just can't concentrate on my own pleasure, I guess. I can see myself, if I have a partner, to care more how she feels than how I feel. Maybe I don't even care how I feel about it... haha.

For now, this discussion is helpful and get a better understanding. If anything feels like TMI, I tend to stop reading.

I'll read the articles. Thanks for your help.

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Heather
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Perhaps then, one of the pieces that you're missing is that when we are with someone sexually we like, love, care about, we tend to EXPERIENCE pleasure in giving pleasure and in their pleasure.

As well, often in engaging in sex, what feels good for one person will feel good to us, psychologically and physically. For example, while many people present oral sex as something only for the receptive partner, not only are those of us "giving" oral sex usually turned on, experiencing emotional and psychological enjoyment, our mouths also have lots of nerve endings just like our genitals, so that tends to also feel good to our bodies.

Can you follow that?

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Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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Idir
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Yeah, people tend to forget that for example passive partners in anal or vaginal sex, or active partners in oral sex can also feel pleasure.
Besides physical pleasure, it's also extremely gratifying (at least for me) to be able to please someone in return, to express my love for them by helping them reach orgasm.

The Golden Rule [Smile]

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I know there is an over the rainbow for me.

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Heather
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...and also apparently tend to forget that any people wantedly and truly engaging in any kind of sex aren't passive at all. [Razz]

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Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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SkinneeJay
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I see it now. Things are clearer. My opinion hasn't really changed, but I guess sex and sexual attraction isn't for everyone.
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atm1
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Nor is it for any one person ALL the time.

Pretty much everyone I know has felt pretty differently about their sexuality/sexuality in general at different points in their life.
(this isn't meant to be patronizing and say "you'll change," but rather to point out that these things shift with time for most people, no matter their age).

And, if you ever do want to have a longer conversation about how sex is pleasurable and enjoyable for all partners, you are certainly welcome to come back here and ask.

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