posted
So I have a long rant that I need to get out. This is pretty personal but I feel I need a third party to offer me some advice. Please bear with me.
The topic is: pornography. I am a very liberal person, I believe people have certain rights that should be met and I support the so called ‘sexual revolution,’ problem is, I am pretty much (from what I can tell/feel) anti-pornography. What a contradiction.
I am pretty stead fast on saying that if a person is in a relationship he/she should not really need, well no one should ‘need’ porn, to satisfy their needs. Yes, I do understand porn can be shared, and yes I know ones partner may not always be around to physically please.
This gets more personal however. I am in a relationship and the person I am with watches porn. This hurts me. I know it is idealistic, I know it is fantasy but I cannot help but wonder how I am being judged against porn. He has told me that I am ultimately his ‘number one’ and that in no way is he comparing me. But in response I feel like I am just not enough. My throat clenches and I feel betrayed. Silly right? To feel that way about something that is primarily based on fraudulence.
I have offered my partner, and myself, many opportunities to fulfill fantasies, mind you I know when to say I am uncomfortable or when to just say no, however I have not had any problems as of yet. I care for him deeply and he has the utmost respect for me, but I do not say this to defend him just to make you aware that he is a great person, this topic aside. I have told him my feelings about porn, and how I cannot get past this insecurity. I feel betrayed in a manner of speaking – that being, what is the difference between going to a strip club and paying to WATCH a stripper as opposed to going to a store and buying porn to WATCH it also. Neither involve touching necessarily and both can cost money and involve the voluntary action of being sought out.
He tells me that he doesn’t need it, and I don’t want to infringe on his rights, relationships consist of compromises. I have offered to join him in watching and maybe warming up to the idea. I recently found out that he didn’t keep his promise and has still sought it out, he isn’t obsessive with it at all, I just know that he lied.
I feel really hurt and he says that he just does not agree with my views. I know people are different in their views but I feel (and have told him) that if we’re in a relationship shouldn’t my physical love for him, pictures – when I am not there, etc be enough to satisfy him? He says it's for times when I am not there, when he is sexually frustrated, I tried to remedy that by offering pictures, things I am comfortable sharing with him – we are very open sexually. But it doesn’t seem to be enough, I know he has gone behind my back, never when I am around and hides it really well.
I feel so amateur then and just want to break down and cry. I also feel that because he was my first I gave a part of myself away for him, I exposed myself at my most vulnerable by being nude and loving him and when I did I felt I was enough and should be the only naked woman in his life; and not visually sharing it with some phony blonde.
I have a slight fear now, I haven’t acted on it because I am a sensible person and know when to say no, but I fear that if in the future if I don’t want to do something sexual he will go behind my back and remedy that by finding some pornography that fulfills that need – its like replacement and comparability rolled into one. I would love to be open minded about this, and have tried.
My mind says I can cope and realize that porn is a billion dollar industry founded on harmless fantasy but my heart burns when I realize that I don’t want the person I love to be sharing eyes with another woman who is nude and at her most vulnerable. Am I insane for feeling this way? Am I too uptight? I think sexuality is wonderful and I approve of many things, I don’t want to be known as some strict yet benevolent dictator partner, but I don’t know what to do and how to change how I feel. I need some advice or just a listening ear, any response. Thank you for listening to my rant, I really appreciate it, and just writing this has made things feel a lot easier.
(Lau: I added paragraph breaks to this so it'd be readable.)
Silly right? To feel that way about something that is primarily based on fraudulence.
To the contrary, that's not silly at all.
Pornography mimics sexual activity based on shared masculine ideals of the female body. In porn, the sex act is (often) literally arranged to promote excitement in the viewer; for the most part, its resemblance to the intimacy of homegrown partnered sex is very slight. I'd be suprised if you weren't upset by your boyfriend's attitudes, given your sexual openness with him.
I think the crux of your rant is your concern with his lack of honesty. You're not "uptight" -far from it. You've said that you want to share your vulnerability with your partner. That's paramount in a strong, intimate relationship. You need to be able to trust this guy, and he needs to be honest with you about his desire to watch pornography.
He tells me that he doesn’t need it... I recently found out that he didn’t keep his promise and has still sought it out
Many men who are in stable relationships watch pornography, attend strip clubs, and masturbate to the fantasies of their mind's eye.
a billion dollar industry founded on harmless fantasy
This is largely true for most healthy men if you factor women (girlfriends, wives, pornography participants) out of the equation.
its like replacement and comparability rolled into one
I'd say this depends on the man involved. I won't deny that obsessive pornography use (many hours a day/expensive habit) is harmful. But if a guy wants to replace his girlfriend, he will most often seek out a tangible, real woman to do that.
As far as comparability goes - call me cold-hearted if you will - I think that many women have unnecessarily compared themselves to the cookie-cutter idealized version of women in porn.
At the end of the day, most men accept the fact that they will not wind up with a woman who measures 36DD-23-36, who orgasms at the drop of the hat without any foreplay. I don't think that most healthy, sober men would really enjoy prolonged sexual activity of this kind. If a guy is in a long-term relationship with a decidedly average, normal-proportioned woman, there's a reason for it. If he's out chasing anything that moves, that's a different story.
Women tend to see porn differently - along the terms you've described.
Men look at porn. They may look at porn to remedy that by finding some pornography that fulfills that need as you've said. Is that what we want in a truly feminist world? No. Realize that that desire doesn't mean he disrespects you as a person and girlfriend.
But that's got to happen in a format that doesn't upset their partner to an unreasonable degree.
You're right that he has a right to pleasure himself. But that gives him no right to be dishonest about anything.
I feel so amateur then and just want to break down and cry.
Do you think you also feel amateurish because of your (relative) sexual inexperience? If that's the case - hell, no matter what, you have to sit down with him and tell him what you've said here. He needs to be told this: when I did I felt I was enough ... "and it upsets me because it makes me feel that I'm not special enough to you."
Miz Scarlet would tell you that pornography, this very male conceit, as a result of its social acceptability, will hold fast in our culture and negatively effect women for a long time. But that doesn't mean we can't demand open communication from men.
The feminist in me relents against pornography. The reasonable girlfriend in me - the one that compromises with my cocky boyfriend - knows that his mild interest in pornography is a throughly male conceit that I can't change. I don't know what kind of pornography he has, if any. He's told me that he goes to strip clubs. But he's also told me, many times, that he wants me for me.
And I'm nowhere near a porn actress in terms of body type. I'm 5'1", 104 lbs., have barely 34A breasts. Yeah, he looks at porn to get off. But he had sex with me last night, and treated me with respect and caring. You see what I mean?
That's satisfaction enough for me; it may not be enough for you, and that's ok.
At the end of the day, you have to tell this guy why you're upset. He has to listen to you and then do his best to compromise.
I hope this helps. If you want, let me know your thoughts and I'll write back later on today.
[ 08-11-2006, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: kitka ]
Posts: 455 | From: New York, NY | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kitka: I think that 36DD is the modal breast size, in the UK, at least. (But comparatively few women who have this also have small waists.) I'm sorry if I'm digressing here, but my initial interpretation of to your '36DD-23-36' was that someone with 36DD breasts was somehow abnormal/exception to the norm/surgeried... which is really not the case. Just saying.
Lau-Saturnine: Being anti-pornography and at the same time liberal aren't necessarily a contradiction. While it can be argued that pornography is part of free speech, and such things, it also has scope for hurting people involved, (though many of the performers do it because they want to, and make a profit from their work) and affecting people's views in a way that can potentially cause harm. (for example, on how women should look).
By no means is someone who identifies as liberal obliged to support pornography any more than they are obliged to support religious doctrine that states how people should act. Not that I'm making analogies...
As to your own situation, boyfriend watching pornography is not a particularly a bad thing by him, but lying about it most probably is. I doubt very much he is comparing you to a porn actress, though, or that he thinks that you are inadequate. He has said that he isn't, and that is most probably true. No-one 'needs' porn, he watches it because he enjoys it, and probably doesn't really realise how bad this is making you feel. Perhaps you could try explaining to him that it's not just that you disapprove of his use of pornography, but that him watching it makes you feel that insecure. Fears should be discussed.
I hope you manage a compromise about this.
Posts: 10 | From: England | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
'36DD-23-36', at least in US sizes, would be extremely rare. I know from working in a lingerie shop that UK sizes are a little different than US sizes, but I still don't think 36DD would be modal, although it is a smaller size than it is in the US. In the US B-C is modal, which means that around a C would be modal in UK.
My bad, sorry. I seem to remember seeing some sales figures a while back that indicated that 36DD size sold more units than the rest. That's probably because people of that size get through lingerie more quickly, come to think of it. And a 23 inch waist is tiny (though not abnormal, either). But my oint was that 36DD wasn't abnormal... which it isn't.. And continued discussion would be better on another topic, methinks.
No problem, Zeqque... I wasn't referring to it as an abnormal/excessive size, but rather as an example of what's idealized in male-focused pornography. I think it's safe to say that many men, though by no means at all most or a majority, sometimes express interest in the ideal of a larger breast/a particular kind of "maximized" female body. And this kind of body is usually only attained through artificial enhancement - a whole 'nother can of worms.
By no means is someone who identifies as liberal obliged to support pornography
Very true. This is what makes it a thorny issue for a lot of young women (and men who aren't spectators of pornography). We're told that we ought to be open-minded about other people's means of expression, yet we see this form of expression hindering a realistic acceptance of women's sexuality, their bodies, the sources of their self-esteem, much less their relationship to men.
[ 08-11-2006, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: kitka ]
Posts: 455 | From: New York, NY | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Lau, my biggest concern here are the behaviours you're engaging in to try and "fix" this.
You KNOW you aren't comfortable with pornography, So, for example, why are you offering to watch it with him when you know it's something that makes you feel bad and you're opposed to?
That's not healthy, just as it isn't healthy to look to fulfill a partner's every fantasy, or to try and be a walking, human "replacement" for porn. I'm thinking that this stuff is likely a part of what's making things worse for you.
Like others have said, progressive people or liberal people are "allowed" to dislike porn or not to support it. It's not so simple a matter of how open someone is, or a matter of supporting freedom of expression. Given that we're talking about a massive industry at this point, and given that we're talking about things within the context of the domestic relationship of two people, do yourself a favor and don't get down on yourself as somehow being in conflict with your politics on this, especially considering that in your case, it's not just about porn, it's also about dishonesty, and it's also about how your relationship is going.
To a large degree, porn use is a compatibility issue. There are simply some people for whom porn use is something they don't want in their relationship, and that's just as valid as say, wanting to be with someone who doesn't eat meat, or doesn't hunt for sport, or doesn't want you to move to Antarctica with them to live in a tent. This may be something that becomes or is a need for you: to have a partner who does not use certain forms of pornography or pornography at all. And that is OKAY, and there are plenty of people who do not.
(In fact, without that even being a need for me, to a large degree, I'd say that personally, in a great many partners, at least half of my male and female partners have wound up being people who did not. And for those who did, very very few of them used mainstream porn, strip clubs, etc. Mind, I'm older than you, so from the work I do with young people, I'd gather that more people are using porn than ever before, and more often. But still, point is, if you need that, those people are out there.)
Can you give yourself room to evaluate that? I know it's trickier when you're not single and are with someone you care for, but I think that's something you need to think about. Role-play a bit with yourself, visualize yourself in a relationship with it and without it, and spend some time trying to figure out what you really need in this regard. Put yourself outside the context of this relationship, in your mind, as a single person, and think about what you really want and need.
[ 08-11-2006, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Miz Scarlet ]
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63427 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Just a note for you so that, if a partner who just doesn't use porn ends up being what you need, I wanted to show you this so you could see that there are people -- men included -- on that same page. Some men's groups and blogs have linked to this in support of it.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63427 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63427 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Thank you so much – to everyone who has expressed interest in discussing this topic. I just want to make myself clearer first however. I know being liberal and liking pornography does not have to go hand in hand. The only reason I felt so defensive in saying that I am a liberal person and yet disagree with porn but support the sexual revolution was because in the past people I have discussed this with just told me I was being uptight and contradicting my own views yet that isn’t me at all, like I said I am open to learning, exploring, and discussing; this is just something that doesn’t ‘click’. I would consider myself intelligent enough in my politics to realize that I cannot ever consider all so called rules/standards that define liberalism as being applicable to real life in every day scenarios. This of course applies to many things in life, like abovementioned comparison of religion, after all someone could be a devout Christian and yet vehemently disagree in considering homosexuality a grave moral sin. I also know I should never sacrifice what I believe in and my comfort, after all it is true I’m not in favour of porn and if it does make me feel bad I shouldn’t have to subject myself to it.
The thing is I don’t think porn is bad, I have never felt that it is somehow a ‘dirty thing’ or something people should be ashamed in discussing – hence why I started this thread. It has never been an issue of feminism either. I know these women are fake and that they are idealized, and many choose this profession and feel liberated by it. So I’m not opposed to it because I think it makes women look bad, because I don’t think it really makes them look bad, in fact it doesn’t want to make them look appalling, first-rate, yes, and more like the ultimate sexually gratifying machines. That makes them sound like objects, don’t get me wrong I don’t think women in the porn industry are objects, but they do take on a shocking semblance and often, undoubtedly, on purpose. No, this isn’t a thread really about politics, after all I do feel in retrospect that I can hold my beliefs firmly and still have an opposed view to pornography. Now about the evaluation aspect. When I visualize myself without porn in the relationship I obviously feel better, of course. But when I take a realistic approach I realize that though porn may be an issue it isn’t an issue that I would consider to be gravely major in ending a relationship – and this is partly why I would like to feel otherwise about it, I suppose.
In presenting this topic I have made the judgment of character when it comes to my partner very narrow. To make it clearer my partner is not a crazy porn obsessed specimen (intended as a joke), there are many facets to him and this is just a topic that I have stumbled upon and we happen to share dissimilar views on – so don’t worry he’s not sitting at home once again for the 8345th time arranging his porn collection in alphabetical order – but if he was, boy am I red – just joking . You know, a part of me of course whishes he were a man who did not use porn and was part of that pledge, and that makes sense regarding my rant. I also know I should never compare myself to these women and he has made that very clear to me by restating it. When it comes to dishonesty, well he has always been quite the gentleman so this was the biggest shocker – his lying. He panicked, and felt ashamed and even before I could accuse he just said he wanted me to know he was sorry and that I have a right to be upset. And upset I was but I’m cooling down. People do make mistakes.
I never wanted this issue to become an issue I guess. It has and I want to deal with it. I don’t want to consider porn to be some relationship disabling factor and therefore I am trying to find a happy medium or terms to alleviate/replace the porn desire. That sounds silly but like I said I’d like to be enough, and I think I am a charming and wonderful woman who deserves to feel that way – to which, yes, he fulfills that need in every other respect. Is it right for me to demand of him to never watch porn? I of course don’t want to be a puppet and ever feel that because he stops watching porn I need to thereafter fulfill his daydreams by agreeing to everything – no, I know better but I also don’t want to worry that I am somehow restricting him. Does anyone else see where I am coming from?
It just boogles me when I think of how being with someone intimately, lovingly, and being at your most vulnerable needs to be somehow remedied every so often by something so shallow.
In regards to the pledge against porn site:
“You could get lucky, if they're just a casual user who never gave much thought to the matter before. However, if they're a major user or an addict, you're in for a tougher fight. Still, we believe that you need to know sooner rather than later whether your partner truly considers your feelings and discomfort secondary to their porn use.”
I know he isn’t an addict for sure, and I know I’m his primary concern but it bothers me how the site makes it sound so easy –“…if they’re a casual user who never gave much thought to the matter” as if everything should be so easy to resolve – I said no, therefore you must agree.
How do I make it clear enough that it hurts me without fearing that he may view me as being a controlling partner limiting his rights? Rights that I know some of his closer friends have in spite of being in a relationship – I know this is paranoid but I would hate to ever be referred to as being his crazy uptight girlfriend who couldn’t let some harmless porn go. Like I said the relationship isn’t worth ending over an issue that isn’t so major, or shouldn’t be, so I want to find a way of putting a ‘case closed’ sign on this subject if I can just find a way to make it stick without feeling, pardon the language, like a female dog. I shouldn’t feel this way of course and I know I should pride myself in having a stance, I just don’t know how to resolve this. This hurts me, and I though I know porn can be a tool in learning/teaching, or just plain having fun with your partner by watching it together, I don’t know if I can do it but I haven’t tried because he hasn’t asked – which worries me, because then it’s like him and porn have their own rapport and I can’t share that with him.
Yet another long rant.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Perhaps an out of sight, out of mind approach might work? I don't see a solution to this problem being anything other than a compromise, because you're right: you can't MAKE him stop watching pornography. It simply isn't within your rights to tell him what he can and can't do. It sounds like he knows that it bothers and hurts you, but has also acknowledged the fact that your views don't line up. Sometimes, leaving a problem at "I understand you, you understand me, let's leave it at that" works better than trying to push for a solution.
I do not think it would help the matter to watch porn with him. Heather already mentioned; you aren't comfortable with pornography in the first place, and I think it would be taking a step backwards to watch it with him. If the discussions taking place between the two of you are as you described, than I don't think he will ask you to watch it with him, because he KNOWS you are uncomfortable.
quote: Is it right for me to demand of him to never watch porn? I of course don’t want to be a puppet and ever feel that because he stops watching porn I need to thereafter fulfill his daydreams by agreeing to everything – no, I know better but I also don’t want to worry that I am somehow restricting him. Does anyone else see where I am coming from?
I'm going to be very pragmatic here. I don't think this question is even that productive to ask, because porn is one of those things that, especially if someone has grown up with it, as part of their sexual development and patterns, is not very likely to go away, even if you DID ask.
In other words, more times than not, a partner who uses porn is a partner who is going to use porn. You can productively ask for certain limits and boundaries, absolutely, and those should be doable, but asking for it to vanish full-stop just isn't very realistic.
(Especially considering that often, some of the draw with porn is it's forbidden-ness. A partner makes it MORE tabboo or forbidden, sometimes that only makes it even MORE exciting.)
That said, by all means, express how it makes you feel. In an intimate relationship, that's vital with anything, really, when it comes to sex. If, for instance, you had a partner who liked/wanted anal sex and you did not, you'd want to express how you felt about it, even if no was a given. How YOU feel isn't controlling his behaviour. He's in a partnership, he still gets to make choices, but in a partnership, we WANT to know our partners feelings on things so we can factor those feelings into our choices.
(And again, given your feelings, I really think it wouldn't be healthy to try and "share" something which troubles you so much. Doing so isn't going to give you any ownership in this, or make you "part" of it in the way I think you're envisioning, and to boot, doing anything sexually you know isn't a good thing for you is rarely healthy in a sexual partnership.)
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63427 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Thank you for your replies, especially Miz Scarlet. You do have a point, I suppose there is no reason I should try and pressure myself to do something I am more likely than not, not going to enjoy. Watching porn with him may not make me like it, but do you think it's reasonable then to ask if he shows me what porn he watches etc so that at least I'm not always guessing or presuming what it could possibly be? For sake of easing my imaginative mind. I think that's what I would really like, not to put a shroud on this topic and actually to sit down and watch it so that I can realize that yes, it can be in many ways harmeless if not abused. Do you think this is a mature thing to do? It sounds like a good plan to me, at least then I know what I am truly bothered about, part of my fear is that it's so ambigious.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I think that's sage. Just do yourself a favor and find a friend you can lean on afterwards. I don't know what all your partner watches, but some pornography can be very disturbing to given people for a myriad of reasons, so you might want to have someone else to let some steam off with afterwards/about this issue.
But yes: I think that it's always wise to inform oneself about anything you're reacting to the IDEA of (okay, almost anything, but in media, yes) so that you can have informed opinions, and not be reacting to imaginary issues.
I also think, if you do this (had an older friend a couple years back ask me for advice on a similar issue), and you find that one or two of the videos are just something you cannot live with in shared space (not sure if you cohabitate), that it's fair to ask for some of them to not be in your house.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63427 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Hi Lau! I'm a newbie here, but as a female who enjoys watching porn (oooo a rare creature! lol), I thought I'd put my two cents in. I don't really have much to add, because Zeqque has basically said what I felt. I just wanted to respond to one thing you said.
quote:I am pretty stead fast on saying that if a person is in a relationship he/she should not really need, well no one should ‘need’ porn, to satisfy their needs.
When you start a relationship, are there some things that you enjoy together? Of course there are-going to the movies, the beach, hanging out at home playing a game, etc. When you begin this relationship, does that mean you automatically have to do these things with your significant other ALL the time? Some may say yes, but I think most here would probably say no, of course not. So why must every part of sexuality automatically be share with your partner? Do you still masturbate alone? Does he? I'm speaking generally, but using you as an example. I don't understand this way of thinking, and maybe I'm biased because I watch porn, but I don't think being in a relationship means you automatically have to give up things you enjoy doing by yourself. I honestly would not be too comfortable watching porn with my boyfriend or girlfriend; I prefer watching it by myself. I don't "need" it; if one NEEDS it, there is a problem. But I do believe that sometimes it's just nice to have alone time, and I personally think that should be respected, in any relationship. Does that mean it was OK for your boyfriend to be dishonest with you? Of course not, and I'm sure you know that already. But I personally don't see anything wrong with it.
-------------------- I'm lovely I'm beautiful I love myself I need me Before I need anyone else Posts: 35 | From: New York...New Brunswick, New Jersey when I'm in school | Registered: Aug 2006
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