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Author Topic: Is this porn?
moonangel
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Recently I've found out 'again' that my boyfriend has a collection of 'sexually explicit' animations. They are some Japanese animations that are similar to what people known as 'hentai'.

I took a glimpse at the animations and looked into the reviews about them. Then I learnt from the Internet that such contents can be viewed as softcore porn. Although there are no sexual intercourses shown in the animations, but the female characters are all dressed in clothes which can scarcely cover their bodies. Besides, they used to tease and seduce the male characters in some sexually oriented body languages. The most disgusting part is the animations display the the characters are young and innocent girls, but designed them to be some sex objects that are always craving for sex and showing their bodies for the pleasure of the male characters.

I always think that animations are supposed to be something suitable for the whole family.

I wish to hear some opinions on whether such animations can be categorized as pornography.


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Gumdrop Girl
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in japanese, the word "hentai" means "pervert."

hentai = porn. yes, it's porn.softcore porn is still porn. porn's just a broad term, that's all.

take in account a few cultural porn differences.

1. in japan the age of consent is 16, and that includes consenting to be featured in porn (so if you buy real japanese porn featuring real people, make sure it's 18 up, or you can be prosecutedi n the US and in many other countries)
2. in japan, youthful appearance is the ideal of beauty in general
3. there are rules in japan that prohibit showing pubic hair and orifices in some kinds of porn

Animation isn't a realm exclusively for the family. Like any artform, why should it be? Do you have a real, compelling answer as to why animated drawings should conform to YOUR idea that they only be of subjects suitable for younger viewers? Is 'Family Guy' really something you should watch with a 7 year old? no, it's not. Just because Pixar and Disney have historically master-crafted beautiful films for children, why can't a beautiful animated feature be made about grittier, or prurient topics?

Even though I'm a Disneyphile (season pass to Disneyland and all), I'm taking issue with your NARROW view of how film should be produced because I also love Japanese animated film ("anime" for you n00bs). The Japanese have a great tradition of making these visually lush, gorgeous films. but they're not always appropriate for kids. Case in point, 'Grave of the Fireflies' which is a tear-jerking drama about war orphans in post-WWII Japan.

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moonangel
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Thanks for the reply. I know what pornography means, I supposed, but I just like to know how other people view this issue and where is the borderline.

I supposed I've created some misunderstanding by saying 'animation is supposed to be watched by the whole family'. What I mean is actually based on my own point of view, or should I say I just mean 'cartoons', the traditional one.

To make one point clear, I do watch Japanese animation (anime) too, a long time ago and also plenty of them, but not those sexually explicit ones. Not all anime are hentai. I know what they're like and which belongs to this category, I'm just not interested. If such animations are just one kind of pornography, then it'll bring the same effect and should be treated like one. So, get real. I supposed most people knows the harmful effect of viewing pornography.


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JamsessionVT
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quote:
Originally posted by moonangel:
So, get real. I supposed most people knows the harmful effect of viewing pornography.

moonangel, you need start checking your facts before you make statements like that. I don't mean to be all over your case, but some of the information you have been sharing on these boards is incorrect or inapproriate.

The statement that pornography is harmful is very tricky. If you take a peek around the site we have a million threads that question the effects that sexually explicit material has on viewers. Watching said material does nothing to physically or mentally harm a person. It does not cause addiction or dependancy.

So, while your views will be accepted and respected as just that, your opinions, I would advise that you PLEASE try to present them in a way that is not arguementative or offensive.


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moonangel
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I guess maybe my English is just not very good. When I said harmful effect on viewing pornography, I don't mean take a glimpse or things like that. If you read more about pornography and its effects, which may be available on the Internet, as well as in books, you will understand.

Pornography do cause addiction. There has been a lot of controversial views on this topic, but those who deny the harmful effects it may cause, are just trying to get off with it and lie to themselves. It causes addiction, because when there's once, there'll be twice, especially for people with low self control. Pornography is not natural, and it is not sex education, for the information of some people who don't know this fact.


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JamsessionVT
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You can knock off the attitude. I hate being rude, but seriously, come on.

No one ever said that pornography is sex education. I doubt that parents of younger children want them viewing said material, as it is usually staged, using actors who may or may not be experiencing anything they portray, and really has no educational value. And no one even mentioned whether porn is "normal" or not. If you want more on this, try the Scarleteen article dedicated to it:

http://www.scarleteen.com/boyfriend/porn.html

Just because someone does not share the same view as you does not mean that they are incorrect, or, as you put it, "are just trying to get off with it and lie to themselves". No on here will appreciate you attacking their views if they don't happen to share them w/ you, and quite frankly, the way you are going about expressing your opinions as God-given fact is going to get you in trouble.


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moonangel
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Thanks for your opinions. I always welcome different opinions because I respect in the differences among people and their mindsets.

However, trying to attack somebody with some strange reasons are not very much appreciated. All I did was saying that pornography has harmful effects, and there is nothing wrong with such a simple statement. So please do not try to create an issue in this forum. The forum board is created for people to exchange opinions, and not to judge other people based on their own likings.

Different people may have different sets of thinkings, based on their diversity in social and cultural backgrounds. For me, I rather not choose to attack a person due to some opinions opposite to mine. But I do try to explain and make them realize that I only give my opinions and I won't pin point anybody.


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LilBlueSmurf
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I believe you are the one causing the issue here, not JamsessionVT, as you are the one spreading all of the misinformation.

I understand that you believe pornography to have harmful effects. Do you have any research to back up this claim?

I don't believe JamsessionVT was attacking you, merely pointing out the flaws in your arguements. For example, just because i say that i think the sky looks purple, that doesn't make it so. It's not; it's blue, and this is fact.

Again, feel free to list any research you have that show pornography to be harmful in anyway.


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moonangel
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For your information, pornography do have harmful effects, and it's very naive not to understand this. If somebody wants to view pornography, I can say that's their own choice, but I cannot deny my statement.

If you like to know more about the harmful effects caused by pornography, I suggest that you go to these web sites and take a look.
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/

This is just one of the links, I've read more than that, and I supposed those who still have doubts may do so if they're interested in such issues.

I do not understand the issues that you're trying to cause here, when I just ask for opinions whether the kind of animation that I mentioned can be categorized as pornography or not. Therefore, I really don't want to continue to this long thread if you can't get the idea of what I'm trying to ask and get opinion for.

The last thing I want to remind you is, when I said 'harmful effects', it doesn't mean some effects that will cause 'death' or something. It's about ruin the viewers themselves and their relationships with their partners. Thanks for your input anyway. However, I will appreaciate more if the input is to give opinions on the QUESTION which I asked. That is why I start this thread. I hope that you can understand this fact.


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moonangel
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Sorry, I forgot to include one thing. If you like to know any RESEARCH, I have to admit that I can't provide any, I didn't do such research due to the fact that I'm not a sociologist. But I did read articles about such issues.

Try to be more open in the way you see things and see it in different angle, LilBlueSmurf. You not wrong if you say the sky is purple, because the color changes due to the weather and time. Be open and willing to listen and see things among all the diversity and possiblities.


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dailicious
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moonangel, sorry to dispute this further with you, but the type of harm you're bringing into the discussion is NOT caused by pornography itself; it goes much, much deeper into troubles BOTH partners in a relationship have. Pornography may be a means to bring that out, but it's the people who cause the harm, NOT the material. This is a much deeper of issue of how couples and how people in general view certain things, interpret themselves, relationships, communication, committment, etc.

Moonangel, you're saying things like "be more open to other ideas" to us; you have to understand you're not taking your own advice in responding to what we've said and our views.


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moonangel
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dailicious, thanks for your opinion. The material does causes harms, so do the people who are involved with such materials.

This will be my last post, as I've decided to close this topic. People have been led too far away from the original question and topic. Although I've tried to bring you guys back to my QUESTION, which is the original thing that needs attention and opinion, but things continue to drift, and there seem to be no end to the matter. To avoid causing people to waste more time on giving opinions and posting things with are totally not related to the topic, I'll put an end on this.

Anyway, I enjoy hearing your opinions, because the ways all the ideas and opinions presented are quite new to me. People in my surroundings don't usually do so. Thanks for opening my eyes to such new experience!


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LilBlueSmurf
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Your original question was answered by GumdropGirl ("yes, it's porn. Softcore porn is still porn"). This isn't really something you can have an opinion about. It just is. I'm sorry if you didn't like the answer ... I'm sorry if you didn't get the answer you were looking for.

Your website doesn't do as much for your case as real research would. You don't have to be a sociologist to find research ... Research is readily available over the internet.

I don't believe myself to be close minded (on this topic, at least ) or naive ... I believe you're mistaking these articles for research, and they're not the same.

Again, if you'd like to provide the research we've asked for, then we can discuss it further. If not, stop making claims (ie, pornography is harmful) that you can't back up w/ research.

(Topics can only be closed by advocates and sexperts. When/if there's a reason to close this thread, it'll be closed.)


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chai_tea
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Just out of curiosity more than anything else-- Has anyone found any hard research about the effects of pornography? I see a lot of claims that aren't backed up by research. I was searching around the internet after seeing this topic and most of the studies I saw seemed really flawed. I'd just be interested in seeing studies on the topic, rather than just anecdotal 'evidence'.
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JamsessionVT
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After some really extensive web surfing (I seriously went all out on this one), I didn't find anything that qualifies as hard core (no pun intended) evidence that sexually explicit materials are physically or emotionally addicting.

I did find several "personal experiences" about how devestating pornography is, and plenty of claims that it is, but I've yet to come across a sentence of scientific proof varifying said claim (actually, I found a few number stats, but they were shot down by other information). I even found one researcher from Virginia Tech who said, and I quote, "the arguement could use scientific evidence"

[This message has been edited by JamsessionVT (edited 08-01-2005).]


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Heather
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Here's the tricky thing with pornography research and related behaviour: the VAST majority of men view or have viewed porn, of many types.

If you want to talk about trying to relate, say, porn and rape or general violence the majority of perpetrators in rape and violent crimes are and always have been men.

But that's been the case for eons, long before en masse/mainstream porn existed. Things like data which show that, say, most serial killers use pornography are pretty useless since a) most serial killers are men and b) most men use pornography, and one hits this sort of big problem with pretty much all porn research.

Same goes for relationship and objectification issues, domestic violence, the works.

If you want to address relating say, porn and compulsive behaviour with any accuracy, you're going to have to ALSO look at compulsive/addictive behaviour for ALL types of media, at a minimum and/or somehow find a way to remove porn from being media, which you can't very well do as it dosn't exist in a vacuum. Even then, you'd still have to look at other compulsions like compulsive eating, compulsive nail-biting, compulsive hand-washing and fiure out how useful it is to know that pretty much ANYTHING can be and is an outlet for compulsive behaviour, and ask if the issue is everything in the world that can be used as a compulsive focus or compulsive/addictive behaviour itself.

There's a whole bunch of other monkey wrenches in studying porn and porn use in these ways, which is why, to date, the information out there is largely opinion or personal anecdotes, not statistical research (and why statistical research stating it proves EITHER porn is or isn't de facto destructive is seriously suspect because it tends to be deeply flawed in several respects by design). And ALL of that opinion is widely varied, and plenty of it from all sides is equally valid. Plenty of theories on the effects of pornography -- and the lack -- are also equally valid.

And suffice it to say, it is absolutely, 100% okay to like or diislike porn, to be comfortable or uncomfortable with it, to be okay or not okay with a partner using it or not. Nobody needs statistics to back those feelings up, whatever they may be.

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zeta
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The original poster is probably not reading this thread any more -too bad, since I may have had a slightly more uplifting answer for her.

I don't know why she is so utterly convinced that porn is always and definitely a bad thing; but thing is I don't care for it much myself. Prob with me is that being interested in human rights questions, I've read up too much on women trade and such; some of the porn industry has connections to that. Also, when we're not talking of actual slavery, abuse still happens. When I see porn I am looking at the actresses/ actor's face, wondering if they're ok, if they're enjoying it, if they could refuse to do anything they don't want to, etc. In short, I'm worried, not turned on, and if turned on I'm disgusted -I might have just enjoyed someone being hurt.

I do appreciate that there is responsibly produced porn, but the concern has stuck. Also, I must admit, I sometimes get just plain jealous or insecure.

So hentai is fine. Some of it is misogynistic or violent, but much isn't. And there are no actual people involved whose feelings I would need to be concerned about. And no strange naked women in mine and BF's flat. It doesn't trigger my "worried about the world" or "worried about own atractiveness" buttons, and therefore does no harm to the relationship. We can read the comic book versions together and laugh, because they really have very silly plots. =)

So since I have no clue what the original poster had against porn exactly, it's hard to say whether the same probs would apply to hentai. They might not.


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morganlh85
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Well I view my fair share of pornography and it's had no harmful effects on me.
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TWHSchick
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Moonangel,

hey I definitely see your piont. Porn is harmful. . . not for the the perve who's looking at it, but everyone around him/her. Your boyfriend looking at that japanese animation "porn" isn't weird at all. Infact, if I were you I would just be thankful that he's not looking at naked pictures of real life girls. It's a stage most all guys go through, and most of them take longer to grow out of it than others. As long as it doesn't make you feel insecure that your boyfriend looks at it, than it's alright. If you notice that he's becoming some what obsessed, confront him about it. Hope that helps!

For the others like gumdrop and Jamsession, stop attacking her about having 'proof'. She doesn't need proof to show that fact about porn. Moonangel doesn't need to agree with y'all, she's got her own opinion which she had stated with kindness, not aggressiveness.


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faifai
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[Btw, I don't think moonangel is on the boards anymore]

To TWHSchick, Gumdrop and LilBlueSmurf weren't attacking moonangel, they were asking her to back up the "fact" that "porn is harmful" with evidence. They are advocates of the site and are responsible for making sure there's no misinformation floating about.

Also, your last statement contradicts itself--fact and opinion are very different. Facts can be backed up with evidence, opinions can't. Your opinion might be that carrots are poisonous. You have the freedom not to indulge in carrots. But when you go out and tell everyone else carrots are poisonous, too, without having any factual basis for that claim, that's spreading misinformation.


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TWHSchick
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look fifi,

I know what fact and opinion are, thanks. What I did was state my opinion and I personally don't give a crap what your opinion is so why don't you just drop it.


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wobblyheadedjane
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And regardless of your opinions, one of the guidelines that you must follow (as per your agreement on signing up) is treating the mods and users on Scarleteen with respect. If you can't handle that, then you will find yourself warned and banned quickly.
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Gumdrop Girl
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TWHSChick, here's the point (and btw, drop the 'tude because it's really not cool). moonangel came on and stated AS FACT that viewing porn is harmful to people. If this is a FACT, it should quantifiable.

She laso says she hates porn and opposes it. This is an OPINION. Having an oPINION is a-ok with us. If you don't like porn, then good for you. If you do like porn, then good for you. Frankly, I don't personally care either way.

HOWEVER, you cannot just come in and say that porn is outright harmful and state it as fact. moonangel said

quote:
I supposed most people knows the harmful effect of viewing pornography.
implying that porn *is* harmful. She does not state that it *could be* but rather necessitates that porn is harmful.

That implication of necessity makes her statement as a declaration of FACT, rather than opinion.

As for me, I attacked her for saying

quote:
I always think that animations are supposed to be something suitable for the whole family.
and criticized her for wanting to confine the genre of animated film to family-appropriate material only. if you had actually read my reply, you'd have understood that. but i guess you missed it. *shrug*

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JamsessionVT
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To add a bit more to GG's schpeel: the Scarleteen boards are very carefully monitored. It's necessary because the nature of the content on these boards can be touchy, and contain a lot of personal experience and information. So while one may be able to get away w/ trash talking and dissing other users on some boards, it's not at all tolerated here.

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. Opinions are wonderful things. But when they become a substitute for facts, it can cause some problems. I feel the need to clarify that my attacking moonangel was not because she had an opinion, as do many of the Scarleteen users, but because she used her opinion as fact, w/ no basis other than her personal feelings.


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baachus
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First I want to thank moonangel for getting me to register albeit after all the fun has died down, your thread was just begging for my voice.
And to attempt to answer the original question, it really involves what is shown and the overal theme of the film. Since I am a big movie buff I want to point out a couple of things, most movies both animation and motion picture have ratings, these are used to describe their contents.
So for starters hentai is considered porn because it depicts penetration, basically compare this to triple x porno.
If the film depicts strong sexual acts and alot of them in repetition and full nudity but no actual penetration that would be comparable to x porn, or soft core porn.
If it depicts nude bodies with few sexual acts and no insertion, then that would be comparable to an R rated movie. If it doesn't show nudity but has characters in very revealing clothing that is Sailor Moon, ha.
But it seems that a great discussion has been raised from some of your statements, I want to point out that porno can be beneficial both for a person and even for a couple involved in a committed relationship. But as you've stated it can also be damaging, but not neccessarily in the manner that you depict. I disagree that porn is addictive. (its probably the masturbation usually involved with porn watching) But it certainly has a reputation for degrading women and maybe even inspiring acts of sexual aggression. And the idea that porno is unnatural is valid, but then again with this same logic I can say that photographs are unnatural so I probably shouldn't look at them for memories because the feelings they produce are artificial.

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TAB
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Hey, here's my two cents:

I work in an adult store that specializes in movies more so than toys so I watch pornography quite frequently to keep on the frontline and just the enjoy the stuff. I happen to really enjoy porn, not just because of people "doing it" but for a lot of production companies artistic takes on it. There are many many genres of porn out there ranging from bondage to comedy (yes, comedy) and I have seen a good cross section of each and what a surprise, I'm a completely normal functioning adult.

It's not a "stage" men go through, we have clientel ranging from 18 to 70 who come in regularly. There's nothing inherently wrong with watching legal pornography.


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