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» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sexual Ethics and Politics » Continuing the pro-choice/pro-life debate... (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Continuing the pro-choice/pro-life debate...
joshie_T
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Personally, I think it is quite sad if somebody has sex, fully understanding that sex is for reproduction, and then they kill the life that they have created. If it is your own fault, by that i mean, if you willlingly decided to have sex, you should damn well be ready to raise a baby. And if it was a complete accident, well face up to the embarassment, have the baby, and give it up so a family who isn't lucky enough to have the abillity to have children can have a kid to raise. It is too bad that people are so ashamed that they got pregnant, they are will to destroy a potential life.

As far as abortion in general, I am by no means against it, I am just against it, if the child was a typical "accident" I think abortion is good for its reasons, if it will save teh mother's life, go ahead with it. If you've been raped, go ahead. But if you are mature enough to have sex, be mature enough to deal with the consequeces.


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MarvellousPurple
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One point to think about, though, is that I think quite a few people (me included) have chosen to have sex knowing that abortion is an option, should they happen to get pregnant.

Now, i'm not saying it's birth control. It's not, and I'm certainly not using it as such. What I'm saying is that I know that should my birth control methods happen to fail (and I'm taking lots of care to see that that doesn't happen), I know that I wouldn't have to have a child I'm certainly not ready for. I made the choice to be sexually active knowing that, and it was a factor in my choosing to do so. I really don't think I would have a problem aborting if I happen to get pregnant.

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I'm never gonna know you now, but I'm gonna love you anyhow.


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lilmsirishrage
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To me, dignity of life is quality of life. I would feel horrible if I brought a child into the world knowing that I could not take care of it as well as he or she would deserve. My mom met a lady who got pregnant only because her husband wanted to. She had no wish to have any more children. Turns out she had twins, and now all she ever does is complain about how much she hates having to spend time taking care of them. That, to me, is more of a dignity of life issue. All children deserve loving caretakers, and I am not convinced that adoption can properly assure this.

I also disagree that people should abstain from sex for as long as they don't want children. Women were designed to have children at a "young" age, and we become sexually mature before we even finish high school. Society has made it difficult to live according to our biological clock. Later is better, they say. For some people this is a blessing, and for some it is not. The fact is, it is difficult and often looked-down-upon to have children at the age of 22, let alone as a teenager. This is a travesty, in my opinion. Just because society dictates that life is money and money is life doesn't mean that a person's natural urges, for sex or for motherhood, should shift to a later age at the same time. I don't like the idea of having a child that cannot be taken cared of, but our government doesn't exactly do enough to help families, IMO. Abortion has to be an option. I would rather stop a potential life from suffering (if I believed that this would happen) than have a child and not be able to do as much for him or her as I would like.

Wow, I really ramble =)


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joshie_T
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You know you can stop a child suffering without abortion. Give somebody else the oppurtunity to have a child, by giving it up for adoption if you don't want it.

And people saying that they have been more willing to engage in sexual activity becuase abortion is an option!!! Come on people. Have a little more respect for your sexuality, and for the life that could, or is created.

Think if you had been an adopted child that was born from a teenage mother, or unwanted pregnancy. Just curious how you would feel, knowing that if your mother had believed in abortion, you wouldn't even be alive? The most wonderful person i know (my girlfriend) was in that situation, and i can't imagine if she had never been born.


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lemming
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joshie_t, it is your responsibility to treat other users with respect on this forum, with respect to the guidelines which you agreed to when you signed up here, and knowing that Scarleteen is a pro-choice forum (click here for more).

please exercise caution in regard to your tone.

if you have comments or questions about this warning, please direct them to boardmom@scarleteen.com .

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Laurel Lemming
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Do you realize/That everyone you know/Someday/Will die?/And instead of saying all of your goodbyes/Let them know you realize..." - The Flaming Lips


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lilmsirishrage
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If someone prefers to give the baby for adoption, great. All choices are equally good, and I'm glad that person resolved a very complicated issue. For me, it's not a good option because adoption doesn't automatically stop suffering. There was a story pretty recently about a family that had several birth children and adopted 4 boys. The adopted kids were only given peanut butter and raw pancake batter for food, and often ate plasterboard because they were so hungry. The 19 year old looked like a kindergartener, he was so malnourished. I know this is a severe case, but abuse certainly happens. Also, it may even be hard to place a child who is not Caucasian, especially if he or she has any disabilities whatsoever. Not all adoption stories are horror stories, obviously. I'm sure there are adopted people here who are just fine, and people who have given a child up for adoption and the child is doing well, too. I just am saying that it's not a guarantee that the child will be okay, which is why I would not choose it. I've heard too many stories from the foster kids down the street (about their past experiences...their current family is good to them).

I'm not adopted, but my mom is very pro-choice. If she had become pregnant with me before she was ready, she would have aborted me. I believe that my "soul" would have been given to another physical body. So, it doesn't really bother me that much. The only thing that really upsets me is when a person is forced into a decision, whether it be birthing the child or abortion.


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Etch
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Ordinarily I dont argue about abortion. When I do I rarely use the arguments I am about to use. But I am in a wierd mood so Im going to anyways.

We all kill life every single day. When you wash your hands you are killing innocent bacteria (yes there is good/innocent bacteria). When you walk in the grass you are killing. I see abortion the same way I see killing a spider on purpose. Bhudists dont believe in killing bugs, if you are anti abortion for the reason that a fetus is a life then you should not kill bugs either. Just because something isnt humanoid doesnt mean it doesnt have a soul (if you believe) or that it doesnt feel pain. And you should feel horrible guilt everytime you wash your hands (just think of the multitude of lives you killed)

Next. Adoption is WONDERFUL (my dad, aunt, and younger brother and sister are all adopted). To me though, having a child with intentions to give it up isnt fair. There are so many needy children out there that need homes because rich buttholes would prefer a perfect newborn. I wish that more people were like my mom and willing to adopt disadvantaged children. And it isnt fair for that child. Being adopted can cause some major psychological issues that I would be ashamed to afflict on someone.

Not to mention, it isnt like there is a shortage of humans on this planet. Everyday our population grows in alarming rates. While I believe every life is special, I also believe that we need to consider the global impact. And don't say "its only one life" because we all know from elementary school that if everyone littered then what would our would look like?

Now that I sound like an insensitive psycho I dont have anything else to day. If this was inapropriate tell me and I will edit the message.


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bluefreak44
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Wow, where do I start. First off, I want to address the "I'm glad my mom was pro-life" argument. I don't really think of that in my life, but my boyfriend's. My mom was 23 and married for 3 years before I was born. My boyfriend's real mom is a different story. From outside circumstances, she had every reason to get an abortion. She was 17, w/o steady income, and single. 3 months prior to my boyfriend's birth, his father was murdered. So, young, single, poor, and with no father for her baby. However, she didn't terminate Chris, and I am VERY glad of that. He grew up with an abusive stepfather, and eventually went to live with relatives other than his mom. But...he LIVED. And despite some of the harsh times of his childhood, he's happy.

There was another argument brought in by Eagle in a similar thread, but I figured I should address it hear since this is the "debate" thread. Someone (was it Miz Scarlet) that she had a bad relationship with her sister, so Eagle may not be missing much. I know that if I said to my boyfriend, "Well, my dad and I don't usually get along that great anyway, so I doubt you're missing much," things would NOT go well.

I also agree that if someone wishes to have sex, he or she should be prepared for any consequences, whether that be STDs or pregnancies, both of which can occur in usually "safe" environments. This is part of the reason that I'm choosing to remain abstinent until I am married. I know many scoff when someone says this and think they won't make it, but I've stuck with it 19 years, and am continuing to through a serious relationship (a little over a year). If one thinks he or she is ready to have sex, I think he or she should be prepared for any accompanying consequences. I would like to clarify that I am referring to those who chose to have sex, who CONSENT to it. I'm excluding victims of rape and such from this.

Well, I'm going to stop now because I know if this is too long it probably won't be ready.


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-Jill
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Bluefreak, scroll up and check out MarvellousPurple's reply.

While I'm ready to be sexually active, I'm certainly not ready for a pregnancy or raising a child. I may never be ready for those things or simply never want them. The knowledge that I have a choice makes all the difference between being able to feel secure in my decision to be sexually active and constant doubt and worry.

I really believe I'm ready for any consequence my actions bring me, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to bring a child to term, nor should it. I find it pretty dismissive to simply write off those who choose to abort as "unprepared." For me, in the (highly improbable) event that the condom fails and emergency contraception fails, the next step in my plan would be to abort.

I've given this serious thought on my own, it would be discussed with my partner ahead of time, I know I could get the money to pay for this. I certainly don't think I'm the only one who has thought ahead like this. I don't think we're unprepared or being irresponsible; I think we're making the choices that work best for us, just as you're making the choice that works best for you by choosing to be abstinent.

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"Don't you know about the new fashion, honey? All you need are looks and a whole lot of money." -- Billy Joel, "It's Still Rock and Roll to Me"

[This message has been edited by ookuotoe (edited 12-10-2003).]


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Heather
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It's also worth a reminder that PLENTY of married women opt to terminate accidental/ failed method pregnancies for numerous reasons, including that they do not want to bring children to term or rear them (or more children, if they're already parents), cannot afford to, know the harsh realities of many adoption scenarios, etc. Around 20 - 25 percent of all abortions are performed for married women.

Terminating a pregnancy IS one means of accepting and dealing with consequences. Bringing a child to term is not the only manner of saying one accepts consequences in regards to accidental pregnancy.

And without speculating overmuch, you brought up my comment on a user wanting siblings. The thing is, none of us has ANY way of knowing if the people in our lives would STILL be in our lives, even if someone aborted or miscarried. In other words, the fabric of the universe may be so that when any of us are born, we can be born into any number of possible bodies/vessels. For those of us whose beliefs involve reincarnation, for instance, that's a probable theoretical scenario. But, given we can't know how that works at all, assuming that a given person would or would not exist had an abortion or miscarriage occurred is really assuming quite a lot.


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Jesse
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Wow, it's been SO long since I posted this one...seems like so much has happened. I've done alot of thinking about this topic lately because a recent development in a relationship. Alot of people talk about the ups of being a virgin and saving yourself until marriage, andmake it seem like not being a virgin is a bad thing.

One thing I've learned about myself recently is that I don't think it's a bad thing to become sexually active before marriage. It's a choice you have to make for yourself, when you decide you're ready. It's like choosing a favorite color. There's no right or wrong, if that's a decent analogy. Being a teen and sexually active once you're ready isn't a bad thing, it's just a choice. I personally think that if you are a teen and active, you're living your life as it's meant to be lived -- to the fullest. Good for you.

Myself however, I know for a fact I'm not quite ready to be sexually active. I just know, so I wait. But when I find someone I really care about and I'm comfortable with the situation, carpe diem, man.

Jesse

Thanks for all the awesome replies. It's really helped me base my own ideas.


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KCallahan
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Since it is unlikely I'll ever have a child biologicaly, the only things that define me as being "pro-life" is the firm belief that an individual is formed at conception. I owe it to my Catholic background. In anycase, I pretty much only get involved when it comes tot he father's rights. I do believe they exist. If I was an accidental father, considering my view on abortion, and the mother went and had an abortion without telling me, well as someone pointed, that child is 1/2 mine. I would be crushed. I would be willing to pay for it, be willing to raise it, because it is the right thing to do. I know that many guys would not feel this way, and much of the problem is that they run off. That doesn't apply to all guys, and I think that laws need to reflect some sort of time period to tell the father and find out if the father is okay with it. I know that even considering the situation gives me shudders.
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qitelremel
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quote:
Originally posted by KCallahan:
If I was an accidental father, considering my view on abortion, and the mother went and had an abortion without telling me, well as someone pointed, that child is 1/2 mine. I would be crushed. I would be willing to pay for it, be willing to raise it, because it is the right thing to do.
But would you be willing to accept sole custody? That's the big question.

-Qit


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logic_grrl
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Actually, I don't think that's the big question. There are plenty of fathers with sole custody of kids out there, including a number who chose to become single fathers (for example, by adoption).

It's clear that if a woman chooses to have an abortion, and the biological father wanted very much to have a child, he can experience a real sense of grief and loss.

The question is whether that would entitle him to legally force her to go through with the pregnancy against her will, in order to provide him with the child.

And I don't buy that - the fetus is in her body, not his, which in my opinion gives her the right to make the final decision. He doesn't have the right to take over her control over her body, any more than she would have the right to take over control of his body.

However, it's clearly a good idea for opposite-sex couples (or any couples for whom conception is a possibility, such as same-sex couples with one trans member) to discuss in advance what would happen if they had an unplanned pregnancy, and make sure they're both okay with that.


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BruinDan
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quote:
Originally posted by logic_grrl:
And I don't buy that - the fetus is in her body, not his, which in my opinion gives her the right to make the final decision. He doesn't have the right to take over her control over her body, any more than she would have the right to take over control of his body.

Cool deal. But what about the flipside? What if the woman kept the baby to term against the wishes of the man? Should he then be compelled to pay child support until s/he has reached adulthood?

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BruinDan, "Number Three," PHOM

¡Siendo padrote no es cil!


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Milke
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However, child support exists to benefit children, not their mothers or fathers. Any man who chooses to have potentially procreative sex is taking the risk of becoming a father, and doing so knowingly. No one should be having sex with someone who feels differently than they do about why they're having sex (some people have sex because they want children, others do it for fun), but when they do, they need to be able to accept that they may not be happy with the outcome. Again, I know it's not fair, but because humans come in two general varieties (those who can bear children, and those who can cause those other ones to do so) such is life.

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

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SenegalParrot
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I beleive that if a woman is raped then she has a right to an abortion. If she was just screwing around then i think she should be allowed to have an abortion if shes a teen becuase if she can't physically go through labor at an early age. I am completely pro-choice. As i am a flaming liberal. lol
The main question is when can an embryo be considered a actual human being. This stirs up alot of gray areas.

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lemming
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quote:
Originally posted by SenegalParrot:
I beleive that if a woman is raped then she has a right to an abortion. If she was just screwing around

eeek. SenegalParrot, that phrase is objectionable in that it passes judgment on someone else's sexual activity, and generalizes the whole issue.

in addition:

quote:
then i think she should be allowed to have an abortion if shes a teen becuase if she can't physically go through labor at an early age.

actually, humans are built to give birth at a younger age than modern society would have us believe. when a girl begins to menstruate, she is fertile and able to bear children. of course, she may or may not be physically able to--childbirth is a dangerous act for any animal, she may or may not be of the age of consent, and so on. but just so we're on the same page, most teens can indeed carry a pregnancy to full term through labor.

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Laurel Lemming
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And when her spirit left her body/How it split the sun/I know that she will live forever/All goes on and on./And she goes/And now she knows she'll never be afraid... - Neutral Milk Hotel


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ChitarraRegazza
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of course, she may or may not be physically able to--childbirth is a dangerous act for any animal, she may or may not be of the age of consent, and so on.

This confuses me- are you saying that a girl under the age of consent isn't physically capable of giving birth? If so, why not?

Senegal, I'm kind of bewildered by your post too. How is saying that only women who have been raped and women who are not capable of giving birth can have abortions a completely pro-choice mindset? I'm not trying to make you defend your opinion, I'm just wondering why you use that title. You described what seems like a pretty conditional acceptance of abortion to me.
-Catie

[This message has been edited by ChitarraRegazza (edited 01-29-2004).]


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lemming
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no, I'm not saying that someone under the age of consent cannot give birth (it's an arbitrary, law-defined age), I'm just saying that abortion as it relates to nonconsensual sex is a big and different issue. and I'm not saying it very clearly.

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Laurel Lemming
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And when her spirit left her body/How it split the sun/I know that she will live forever/All goes on and on./And she goes/And now she knows she'll never be afraid... - Neutral Milk Hotel


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