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» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sexual Ethics and Politics » Lesbians in locker rooms, oh my! (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Lesbians in locker rooms, oh my!
Sapp
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Herecomesthesun, don't insult me. You might get the thread locked again. Try to calm down and keep your composure. Come back when you can discuss this like an adult and I might respond.
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Sapp
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quote:
So in other words, it's you and your heterosexual friends who are busy checking out other guys' penises just in case they get an erection?

How does that fit with "keeping your eyes to yourself"?



Do I really need to explain this? Sigh, I guess so. Sometimes, even when you're trying not to look at something, it ends up slightly in your vision.

A) Your peripheral vision covers almost 180 degrees so an erection can be seen out of the corner of your eye even if you're not looking at it.
B) In order to change your line of sight from point A to point B, your eyes need to sweep through everything in between.
C) Sometimes you look where you think its safe, but you accidentally find yourself looking straight at the wolf.

Hope that clears that up.


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LilBlueSmurf
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How about we all just take a big huge DEEP breath and try to remain calm, k? Please. I think this is something we can all discuss rationally, in a mature manner, and w/o having to get the thread closed again. Name calling is not acceptable, nor is generalizing. Try to keep is civil, okay?

Sapp, i'm having trouble seeing the difference from what you and your friends are doing and what those labelled 'gay' are doing. How can you tell if someone looks at you unpurpose or by accident?

On the same token, what exactly is the point of same sex dressing rooms? Was it originally to keep those w/ the same genitals in the same area to change (assuming the majority are more comfortable changing w/ others of the same sex), or was it to keep those who may find other people of the opposite sex attractive, seperate?

I don't think it's fair to go around segregating people for their sexual orientation ... And that's exactly what you're doing. Like i said earlier, if you're uncomfortable changing in front of someone of the same sex who might find you attractive or look at your penis, i'm sure there are other places that you can change. You are the one w/ the problem here, why don't you be the one to change something?

[This message has been edited by LilBlueSmurf (edited 01-12-2003).]


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Heather
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Actually, Sapp, herecomemsthesun may not have been especially sweet, but he was within guidelines and spot-on as far as I am concerned, and I'm more than comfortable standing behind most of what he said to you.

It was in fact YOUR language and tone which resulted in a locked thread. And if that language and tone repeats itself, the thread is not what will be locked, but rather, your posting privledges (which would be an interesting irony given the thoughts you've expressed here which perhaps you could appreciate, but all the same, if you want to stick around, cool it.)

I'm not entriely sure why this thread being open is so important to you regardless. I think at this point it's safe to say that we've all heard you and unless you have something barnd-new on the topic to enlighten us with our collective concern in your responding further is minimal at best.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

My epitaph should read: "She worked herself into this ground."
-- Kay Bailey Hutchinson


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Confused boy
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I dont want to sound as if I am at all supportive of this sexual apartheid in general but I think in this case there may be another reason for this girl being shunned by the rest. Look at the picture of Ashly from the link that Miz Scarlet provided and you will see she has taken on many traits that are traditionally masculine. Indeed I looked at the photograph and needed to check the caption to make sure of her identity. It could just be the photography but she also appears quite imposing.

So I am not sure whether this is homophobia exactly but more the same fears that make it culturally unnacceptable for girls to change with masculine entities. I am not agreeing with their position which is clearly still culturally moored, but I can sympathise with them to an extent.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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Heather
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You know, though, women look a lot of different ways.

And if Ashly looked as she does and had a boyfriend on the football team, none of this would have happened. And what happened in the locker room was an issue with the students -- what happened with the school has to do with adults and administrative and legal discrimination. And such, in public places is not legal here. Just isn't. If in the locker room a white girl screamed out that a black girl had cooties, I can assure you the administration would not have set that black girl out of the locker room for allegedly having cooties because of some high school girls bigotted and neurotic sqwuaking. And because it is patently illegal to do so -- moreover, it's illegal and they would have KNOWN they couldn't get away with it even if they'd been as bigoted themselves. It appears they thought maybe they could in this case.

What happened is pretty clearly outlined in that interview. It was not about how she appears, save that perhaps that appearance was perhaps seen as looking "like gay or bisexual woman look."

Which is foolish, as we all look many, many different ways, just like heterosexual women.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

My epitaph should read: "She worked herself into this ground."
-- Kay Bailey Hutchinson


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logic_grrl
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quote:
And if Ashly looked as she does and had a boyfriend on the football team, none of this would have happened.

Well, some of it might still have - there have been a fair few cases where kids have been harrassed and bullied by other kids for looking or acting in a way that was deemed to be "queer" (because it challenged gender stereotypes), even though they were in fact heterosexual or had given no indications of their orientation at all.

A couple of days ago, I read a newspaper interview with a young man whose kid brother had been beaten up by his schoolmates as a "queer" - because he was taking violin lessons.

And a friend of mine describes being labelled "queer" by his schoolmates for saying he found the musician/poet Patti Smith sexy (as an adult, he identifies as bi, but points out that it's interesting that a heterosexual attraction was taken as evidence of his "queerness").

So homophobia and prejudices about gender roles often seem to intertwine in some not-very-rational ways.


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Heather
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Agreed, for certain. And what you're saying, logic, illustrates vvery clearly how problematic stereotyping in regard to sexual orientation is. I've heard some very femme lesbians who have been really traumatized because when they've tried to come out, they have simply been dismissed or disbelieved because of how they appear, on the flip side. or simply told, dead-to-rights, "No, you aren't gay."

However, the kiss of death in this case seems to have been because when asked if she was a lesbian, her answer was a clear yes.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

My epitaph should read: "She worked herself into this ground."
-- Kay Bailey Hutchinson


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punkfag
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I would love for there to be unisex bathrooms/changerooms everywhere....the solution to sexual assault is not segregation. People murder each other- why don't we put everyone in their own little room. Men abuse their wives- let's ban marriage (actually, I like that idea).
I only use public washrooms if I'm making a choice between using them and peeing on the floor. I change at home. I usually use the women's washroom (unless I'm in a queer, trans-positive place, where everyone uses every bathroom, like our local queer theatre, where the "women's washroom" has a butch grrrl/boi on the door, and the men's has a drag queen kinds thing).

I have to choose between the dirty looks I get in a women's bathroom and the threat of violence in a men's washroom. (if only those men knew that it's not just a "female" in their bathroom, it's a fag). But I'm not checking them out- I'm peeing for cripes sake. i have better things to do with my time.

Hell, If we're going to egotistically accuse people of checking us out, we might as well do it in a non-gendered bathroom- then we can blame straight people too!


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Sapp
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quote:
Actually, Sapp, herecomemsthesun may not have been especially sweet, but he was within guidelines and spot-on as far as I am concerned, and I'm more than comfortable standing behind most of what he said to you.

So I'm allowed to attack other forum members - call them ignorant, tell them to grow up, tell them to examine themselves as a human being, etc? I'll remember that.

quote:
It was in fact YOUR language and tone which resulted in a locked thread. And if that language and tone repeats itself, the thread is not what will be locked, but rather, your posting privledges (which would be an interesting irony given the thoughts you've expressed here which perhaps you could appreciate, but all the same, if you want to stick around, cool it.)

Eh? What did I do?

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LilBlueSmurf
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You've been told several times what you've done ... You've called homosexuals 'queer perverts', have been overall very insensitive to this whole topic and other peoples' feelings towards it. That is totally not acceptable here. Why don't you check out the guidelines again. As said earlier, how do you think those that are homosexual or bisexual on this site feel reading some of what you've said? Probably not too good.

Someone calling you ignorant isn't always an insult, sometimes it's just the way it is. I feel you are being very ignorant to other peoples' feelings ... and you can't expect other people to respect you and your views until you show other people some sort of respect. And really, i have yet to see that from you.

You're expecting everything, and giving nothing in return (on the boards, and obviously, in real life w/ your classmates). When you can state your views w/o insulting other people, you may get better responses


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Dusk
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To comment on Ashley's appearance, if I'd seen her in passing, I don't doubt my mind would have slated her as "male." It's not just her hair but her overall facial and body structure. But yeah, that's neither here nor there regarding her rights.

quote:
Originally posted by punkfag:
I would love for there to be unisex bathrooms/changerooms everywhere....

Not me, thanks, I have no desire to see some guy's bits, even in passing I think schools should have privacy stalls. I absolutely hated getting undressed and showering in front of people, didn't matter what their orientation was. I'm just very private when it comes to my body, I want to choose when, where and who sees me naked. The problem was, my gym class was right in the middle of the day, so I couldn't exactly go another four hours without showering.

Privacy stalls wouldn't be for homosexuals, really, just for anyone who would be uncomfortable changing or showering in front of others. Outright banning someone just stinks.


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Heather
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The kind of thing you've just come up with, Dusk, is the sort of practical solution the school administrators should have been thinking about -- not to mention perhaps educating both their staff and their students on basic GLBT issues and rights. What you've proposed deals with the actual practical problem: some people not feeling comfortable around the general public in locker rooms. Pity you weren't on their staff.

Sapp, if someone is truly being ignorant, then no, I'm not going to say another user can't point it out, especially if that ignorance is bigotry, and especially if they are saying so for something other than the sole purpose of being a jerk. We pay pretty close attention to out users histories at the site, and have a pretty good idea of who seems to have good intentions and who merely wants to raise ire. And telling someone to examine themselves is something most people could use to hear more often. If that request is an insult, it says an awful lot more about the interpreter than who spoke it.

Smurf has made clear, as I have several times now, what this issue is. I have also made clear that regarding this post, we've heard you. Over and over again. Loud and all too clearly.

I suggest you find other threads to participate in at this point.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

My epitaph should read: "She worked herself into this ground."
-- Kay Bailey Hutchinson

[This message has been edited by Miz Scarlet (edited 01-12-2003).]


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cupcake
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See I've always subcribed to the theory that if you feel uncomfortable, leave.

That's not saying that the girl should leave, I'm saying that anyone who feels uncomfortable should leave....

It sounds so harsh, but in 7th and 8th grade, when most girls at my school didn't feel so comfy with their bodies, they'd go change in the bathroom.

Unless this girl was blatantly drooling at teh sight of EVERYBODY'S bodies, or the majority's what's the big deal?

YOu hear jokes all teh time about guys checking each other out at the urinals to see if they measure up, there's stalls for a reason, I suppose.


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Heather
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And if the latter WAS the case (which it was not, she wasn't "drooling over" anyone at all) the problem would not be with "lesbians" in the same way that if a boss is sexually harassing his secretary at work -- the problem isn't with heterosexuals: the problem is with the single person who is sexually harassing others and you deal with that specific person and scenario.

Something that's crossed my mind as this gets disucssed -- especially from the vantage point of men looking at it -- is that women are (unfortunately) used to being sexually harassed by men just about everywhere they go. Some more than others, but it's pretty much a constant in our lives. I don't think that's a "male" problem in any biological way, I think it's pretty clearly a social and socialization issue, but even given that, I've yet to hear anyone talk about that harassment -- or even simple exposure to men in private places or in environments in which the body is exposed -- as being a problem with "heterosexuals." If we did, would we be hearing edicts that no straight men should be allowed to be gynecologists, obstetrictians, general practictioners, massage therapists and the like? Jeepers.

(Not that that all wouldn't be equally ridiculous, it would, just found it interesting to think about.)

------------------
Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

My epitaph should read: "She worked herself into this ground."
-- Kay Bailey Hutchinson


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logic_grrl
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quote:
To comment on Ashley's appearance, if I'd seen her in passing, I don't doubt my mind would have slated her as "male." It's not just her hair but her overall facial and body structure.

That's true for a lot of women, though, just as there are lots of men with pretty "feminine" facial structures. And it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Generally, there's a tendency for men and women to have somewhat different facial structures - but the trend isn't half as strong as people often think it is.

If you remove the external clues from clothing style, haircut, manner, facial expression, and just look at someone's face, there are plenty of people whose gender can't immediately be "read", or whose gender gets read incorrectly.

Like Ashly, I have cropped hair and tend to wear baggy, unisex clothing - that's just my personal preference.

As a result, I've been in a fair few situations where people have simply assumedthat I was a boy, or assumed that I was a lesbian (which is a pretty educational experience, since I'm neither).

As Miz S says, "women look a lot of different ways" .


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Dusk
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quote:
Originally posted by cupcake:
See I've always subcribed to the theory that if you feel uncomfortable, leave.

Unfortunately, that's not always an option. My high school didn't have bathrooms near the locker rooms, they were across the gym and a hallway. The rules also stated that changing outside the locker room, or during any time that was not designated, would get you in trouble. The only time gym clothes could be taken out of the locker room was at the end of the day, so you could wash them, and they had to be back in your gym locker before school started the next day.

The trouble you got from both teachers and students for not showering wasn't exactly a great thing to endure either.

quote:
logic_grrl:
If you remove the external clues from clothing style, haircut, manner, facial expression, and just look at someone's face, there are plenty of people whose gender can't immediately be "read", or whose gender gets read incorrectly.

Um... that's why I said, it wasn't just her hair but overal facial and body structure. There are some, general, differences between a male and female body. I'm not saying there aren't women who tend to have more "male" features or men who have more "female" features. And it didn't have anything to do with sexuality. It was just a comment on physical structure

[This message has been edited by Dusk (edited 01-13-2003).]


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Sapp
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Hmm, I've learned a lot from this thread. I'll think about it.
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Kangae Kaeru
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Most interesting. I wish I'd come across this thread earlier.

Perhaps a solution lies in making the decision not to care if someone else is homo- or bi-sexual? I have friends who are both. It doesn't matter.

Allow me to repeat: It doesn't matter.

They are still people. They're good people, good conversationalists. They know where their preferences lie. I know where my preferences lie, and if somebody chooses to admire my body?

What a compliment! Why should it matter, if my preference does not match theirs? It is not an insult or in any way a slight to be considered beautiful or arousing, no matter who says so.

~Kaeru

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"The real world exists somewhere, a dream exists in what we are."
~Kaworu, Neon Genesis Evangelion


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