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» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sexual Ethics and Politics » where chauvanists and feminists come together

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Author Topic: where chauvanists and feminists come together
John Doe
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When i have cited some of the laws that seem to discriminate against men, it is often pointed out that it is men who have, on balance, made these laws. Men do have a majority of the legislative seats, and not all, or even a majority of these men are feminists. However, while male chauvanists and feminists, particularly of the more radical variety, are often percived as at the opposite ends of the spectrum, they tend to come together on some very important issues. Neither side is really interested in gender equality. the traditional male (the chauvanist) has a very strong desire to "protect the little woman". the radical feminist is first and foremost interested in promoting the vicimization of the female gender. thus both sides line up behind things like the VAWA and the all male draft and deep and ingrained bias in the family court system against men.
The masculanist perspective is more in line with the origional spirt of feminism, looking for equal rights and responsibilities for the sexes. It is aligned with the feminism of the early writings or Betty Freidan, and very much opposed to the work of Andrea Dowarkin, Carol Gilligan and Christine MicKinnon.
I count myself as a masculanist, and am very much in favor of equal pay for equal work, and I would love to see the ERA revived. I would also like to see the repeal of the VAWA, the all male draft, an end to things like the U.S. govenments "girl power" program in schools. I would like to see joint custody be the strong presumption in all divorce cases. In short, I would like to see some fairness.

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-Jill
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I agree with you. The idea of women being perpetual victim or needing protection from wordly issues (like our own bodies) both seem questionable.

I'm in high school so I've had to deal with the very programs you mentioned. Instead of fixing some of our existing gender problems (girls sports teams are given less funding, if someone does something incorrectly they are doing it "like a girl", etc) those programs simply create new ones.

One that particularly stands out is a local science workshop type thing. Any girl that cares to may go to this annual workshop and learn more about science. That's wonderful but there is no equivalent for boys. The reasoning behind this is that girls have a harder time in science than boys. However, in every science class I have been in there were kids of BOTH sexes that just completely understood it and kids of BOTH sexes that really struggled. Instead of helping give girls a fair chance it simply discriminates against boys.

As far as custody cases go, when my parents divorced ten years ago my father received full custody. At the time it was the only logical choice, he was able to take care of three children financially, she was not. However, my mother has of course gotten on her feet in the past ten years and is just as capable of caring for us as he is, yet he still has full custody. I believe that the courts need to use much more common sense in custody issues.

Thanks for giving me a place to rant. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees things that way.


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Beppie
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Just a small correction: the names are Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin- I personally do not like their work, and they certainly don't represent all contemporary feminists.

About the all male draft, I think you might be mistaken on that issue- I browse over some feminist message boards frequented by many radical feminists, from time to time, and I recently saw a discussion of the draft, and not a single woman said that they supported an all male draft. Many said that they did not support a draft at all, but there were a significant number, among whom were some radical feminists, who thought that the draft should extend to both men and women.


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'rin
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the main problem with radical-anything-ists is that they tend to alienate everything. even and perhaps especially the more moderate members of their causes. it's hard to correct decades of discrimination in one direction without letting the pendulum spwing in the other, though. i don't think exculding boys from a science program is at all right or fair. but - i was the only girl in my calculus class in highschool, in with 20 boys, although when the advanced math program started while i was in 8th grade there was an equal number of boys and girls in it. only 3 boys had left the class by 12th grade when we did calc, all the other girls had. it wasn't a nice environment for me a lot of the time, especially since the calc teacher was also the football coach and was definately surprised to actually have a girl in his class. my ap physics class also had no other girls, although that wasn't as uncomfrotable because it was a much smaller group and the teacher was much more understanding about it. i don't like gender segregated education on principle, but if there had been a girls only math class some of the other girls may have stayed on for calc (the first week of school there were 2 other girls in the class but they dropped it, and seemed shocked that i stayed in.). it's not fair that there's a girls only science workshop program in some school districts, but it's also not fair that girls have been exculded and marginalized in math and science classrooms for years. i guess what i'm trying to say is that i see the current girl power environemt as a swing of the pendulum, mens and womens rights will go back and forth for awhile, as each side claims more rights to make up for past slights etc, and eventually we will get it figured out. at least i like the think we will, i'm a much less angry person when i think that thigns will eventually be fair along gender lines.
'rin

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"-and i hope i'm not shooting my mouth off...again...and i pray i'm not tempting the fates....."
-james, off millionaires
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-ben franklin


Posts: 219 | From: lost in yonkers | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
John Doe
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The problem is that boys are demonstribly doing much worse in schools than girls are, yet all the resources are being focused on "Girl Power". yes boys at the very top do have a slight edge in math and science, but boys also dominate the bottom of the class as well. Math and science are not the only subjects taught in school. Girls are more likely to take AP exams than boys are (11.7% of 12th grade boys in 1996 vs. 14.4% of girls, and the gap has been growing) Boys as a group are 1 1/2 years behind girls in reading and writting by the time they are in HS. Are there any boys only reading and writting programs? On almost all IQ and achivement tests the boys group will have a much higher standard deviation (a wide bell curve) while girls will have a smaller standard deviation (a taller narrower bell curve). Thus there tends to be more boys in AP physics (although that gap has narrowed dramatically in recent years), but boys are far more likely to drop out of school. Boys are less likely to go to college, or even take the SAT's. they are less likely to feel that they are liked by their teachers. They are more likely to get harsh discipline when they mess up than girls are, even if the misdeeds are the same.
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'rin
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which is the swing away from the time when girls were not allowed to go to school at all. it's impossible to make things fair all at once in a society where there is no one person who makes all the rules and can demand it. instead, we make new mistakes on our way away from the old ones, go back and forth awhile, and eventually settle down in the middle some where (hopefully). i wasn't speaking about all math and science classes, or all classes, but about my own experience with them. 5 years ago i almost dropped out of my calculus, ap physics, and ap biology classes b/c i was the only girl in a math class taught by the football coach who had a very condiscending attitude towards women in general, and me in particular. it was impossible to take the ap science classes in my hs without taking calculus as well (makes sence for physics but we really didnt' need calc for biology) unless you wanted to get permission from the principal, not likely, since he was the assistant football coach and didnt' like to hear anything negative about the calc teacher. i KNOW that if there had been another math option for girls there would have been girls other than myself taking those classes. girl power is mistaken in its application, but the idea is sound. it's almost like affirmative action along gender lines - a really nifty idea with no good/safe applications. it's trying to make up for decades of women being overlooked almost entirely by the education system. it's not fair that some boys are being overlooked now, but it is a step towards finding an equilibrium.
'rin

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"-and i hope i'm not shooting my mouth off...again...and i pray i'm not tempting the fates....."
-james, off millionaires
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-ben franklin


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Laura
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I agree with 'rin and Beppie that it is crucial to distinguish between so-called "radical" feminists and (for lack of a better word) the "regular" feminists. If someone makes a generalization like "All blacks are thugs" or "All whites are the devil" or "All Jews are money-grubbing slobs", most people would not hesitate to call that person a racist (or anti-Semite, or whatever is appropriate.) And yet, if someone makes an equally ridiculous statement like "All men are rapists," she's branded a "radical feminist", gets lumped in with the rest of the feminists, and ends up giving feminism a bad name, in my opinion.

Regarding boys and girls in school: I've been to several girls-only math and science programs, and I've worked with people who organize them. Their purpose is not really to give girls "extra help" in math and science, but to encourage girls to develop their interest in the subject, without the pressure of being the only girl in the room, or having boys sneer at them when they give the wrong answer, or having boys think they're "too smart" when they give the right answer.

This, I think, is a large part of the reason for the math/science gap: many girls can be, in some sense afraid to express their interest in the subject, or ask for help if they need it, in an environment where boys are the majority. The larger the boy/girl ratio, the more intimidating it can be, in my experience. That's why girls-only programs can help, if they're promoted properly. That's why the math/science gap has been narrowing: because people have been working on it.

Is the reason for the reading/writing gap similar? Are boys intimidated in English classes where girls are in the majority? (This runs contrary to my experience, by the way: in my high school English classes, the handful of boys never seemed to have a problem voicing their opinions or asking for help. But I'm not inside their heads, so I don't know for sure how they felt.) I guess what I'm asking is, is there evidence that boys-only reading and writing programs would do any good? If there is, then I'd be all for them.

As for fewer men going to college: could part of the reason for this be that there are relatively many male-dominated jobs that pay well and don't require a college degree, and relatively few such female-dominated jobs? Could it be that boys who don't go to college are thinking, "Why should I go to college when I can make a good living as a construction worker or an auto mechanic?" In my high school, that seemed to be the prevailing attitude among boys who didnt go to college, but I'm not sure.

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Banana, pineapple, passion fruit, papaya, cherimoya, coconut, carambola, mango,
tango, mambo, limbo, samba, cha cha cha!


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John Doe
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Come on Laura, boys don't want to go to college because they can find jobs that don't need them? The economic returns to going to college have been increasing over the years, not shriking. The gap betweeen males and females in college is by far the widest among blacks. Do you really think that black boys don't need a good education to make it in this society. the groups that promote the "girls losing their voice" bit the most, like the AAUW hide all evidence to the contray, even when it comes from their own studies. The following is from the AAUW study that started all the girls being underserved and losing their self esteem in HS bit.
When asked "who do teachers think are smarter, girls or boys, girls answered girls 81% of the time, and boys 13% of the time, boys answered girls 26% of the time girls 69% of the time.
When asked who do teachers punish more often 92% of girls said boys, and only 5% said girls. Boys agreed with 90% saying boys, and 8% saying girls.
In short your football coach teacher was an aberation. Its far more common to find teachers with negative attitudes towards boys than negative attitudes towards girls.
The reason that there are no boys only programs is because the federal government would block them as a violation of title IX and the school would lose all its federal funding.
The idea of the pedulum swinging is all well and good, but unfortunately my sons are going to school now. It doesn't help them much if 15 years form now schools go back to being fair.
The federal govenment has to stop funding groups like the Wellesley college Center for research on Women and the Womens Educational Equity Act publishing center which are actively hostile to boys education.
We have to stop the craziness where 9 yo boys are handcuffed and fingerprinted as sexual harrassers if the bump up agaist a girl in the lunch line (true story). We have to stop suspending kindergarteners for sexual harrassment. In short we have to stop making schools a hostile environment for boys.

Rin,
"the time when girls were not allowed to go to school at all" When are you talking about ? The 1830's? Public education has always been co-ed. There have been womens colleges around for 100's of years (although many have folded and been absorbed as the traditionally male colleges all went co-ed in the 60's, i.e Radcliff/Harvard, Barnanrd/Columbia. My alma mater was founded as a co-ed school in 1856. Both of my parents, now in their late 60's and 70's have college degrees. Its not like there was massive discrimination against girls five years ago that has to be made up for. The U.S. and Europe are not afganistan or iran.
its not just the way out feminists like Andrea Dwoarkin who have a vested interst in the female as victim mythology. It pervades the "mainstream" feminist organizations like NOW and AAUW.

[This message has been edited by John Doe (edited 10-10-2001).]


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Confused boy
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I can agree wholeheartedly on the last bit of that. For those below 10, and frequently above, boys will not even understand what sexual harrasment is and it wont come into their decision making. I suppose that comes under the over sensitivity to anything vaguely "sexual" complaint.

As for the other things... its not quite as one sided as the picture you paint there John. In this country, there are no extra things specifically for girls to do but they still do better than boys in exams. This is mainly because the exams now favour hard work (something it seems girls are more prepared to do). Girls are frequently more mature than boys at these teenaged ages and therefore act more intelligintly. Boys usually catch up a bit later so the exam results are not everything and should not be treated as the be all and end all of education.

For your sons, while there may be small argumentative points to make on exactly how teachers treat boys, in general, it is a fairly level playing field. Besides, playful complaints about boys are not a new thing, how does that ryhme go: girls are made of sugar and spice.....?

Im sure that if your sons contain an ounce of the vehement belief in oneself you have, they will not be affected by a few nasty comments from teachers in the slightest.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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sapphirecat
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First off: the statistic is goofed up. "boys answered girls 26% of the time girls 69% of the time." Huh?

Second: swinging pendulums should be studied in physics class, not applied to law. Let's put it in the middle and leave it there. "Where is the leadership that will tell blacks that they can't end racism by supporting laws that institutionalize it?" --Eric Raymond I know it's about racism instead of genderism, but girls-only programs seem to be an alternative form of alternative action.

Third: there is no such thing as equality when comparing people. There is only equality in the distribution of wealth to cover all people instead of favoring one gender.

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-- Sapphire Cat

Condense soup, not books!

I don't use the term "straight". It implies its opposite is "crooked".


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John Doe
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What is so hard to understand about the statistic? Yes it does not add to 100%, some boys and some girls each answered "about the same".
I whole heartedly agree with you about placing that pendulum in the middle and keeping it there. Unfortunatly it does not seem to be happening.

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Laura
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John, I don't understand why you think this idea is so ridiculous: why *wouldn't* the availability (or lack thereof) of fairly-well-paying jobs that don't require a college degree affect a person's decision to go to college or not?

Like I said, this seems to be confirmed by my own experience. Most of the boys I knew in high school who didn't go to college already had a decent job lined up for them by the time they graduated. Sure, they're not getting rich as auto mechanics, construction workers, and the like, but I'm sure they're supporting themselves quite nicely. A lot of them probably make more than I do right now, after I went and spent $80K on a college degree.

As for the stats from the AAUW study, they clearly couldn't have hidden them very well, since you managed to find them. (Where did you find them, by the way?) I'd be interested in seeing those stats broken down by age or class level (like AP, honors, college prep, non-CP). Do you know if this was done?

As for the other things you say, I'll agree that there are double standards in this world that favor women, in schools and elsewhere, just like there are some that favor men. As I've said before, I don't believe it does anyone any good to argue about whether men or women suffer more from these injustices, rather than figure out how to fix them.

I, myself, have thought a lot about the nature of the math and science gap, and what can be done about it, because I'm a woman in science and it directly affects me. (If you don't think there's still progress to be made, take a look at the gender ratio of any science graduate school. My class has six women out of 25, and that's extraordinarily high.)

I'd be interested in hearing your proposed solutions (or first steps toward solutions) to the problems you mention. How *do* we get teachers to punish boys and girls equally for the same offense? How *do* we close the reading and writing gap? As I asked you before, do we know what causes the reading and writing gap in the first place? That would be a place to start.

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Banana, pineapple, passion fruit, papaya, cherimoya, coconut, carambola, mango,
tango, mambo, limbo, samba, cha cha cha!

[This message has been edited by Laura (edited 10-11-2001).]


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John Doe
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I got the info on the AAUW study from Christina Hoff Sommers book, "The War Against Boys". (I posted a link to a shorter article by the same name in the "back to school thread) the data was availible deep in the long report, which was not disemminated to the media, but was availible to scholars. In all of the press releases which were uncritically picked up by the media, nothing about them, or anything that suggested boys might be having problems as severe or more severe than those of girls was mentioned. That groundswell of publicity led to legislation and attiudes at the Dept of Education which were downright hostile to boys. Including efforts like "Girl Power". The government could stop distributing materials to elementary schools that treat all boys as protoharrassers and protorapists.
As for the reading gap, how about ensuring that lots of the books that are required reading are likely to be of interest to boys. How about targeted reading and writting workshops. They don't have to be exculsively for boys, but for all who have fallen behind in those areas. However recognizing that most will be boys, the subjects that are read and written about could be taylored for boys interests.
We could start by having the "gender equity" conferences that educators have to attend to fulfill title IX requirements really be about gender equity rather than about male bashing.

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DarlingBri
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I think the value in girls-only science and maths programs is that it encourages and enbables women to go into maths and sciences on a professional level.

It's 2001. How many women have really succeeded in high-profile science and maths careers?

Let's look at MIT. It's a science and maths focused university, and since teaching is a "female friendly" profession, MIT is in a liberal NE local, and they have an active antidescrimination policy, we can expect a positive outcome, right?

[u]1999 Science Faculty[/u]

Men: 235
Women: 31

In addition, there were large gender pay disparities, even among the tenured staff.

So yeah, I'm all for encouraging girls into maths and science. We need more high-profile women in these areas.


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John Doe
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Laura,
i neglected to address your first point.
Is it your assertion that only men can be auto mechanics or construction workers, that these jobs are only availible to men. That the only jobs that the emphisis on gender equality in employment should be safe, indoor, high paying, high social status jobs? Weren't thse jobs availible a decade ago, or two decades ago. in fact didn't they represent far more of the economy then than they do now? Why then should the proportion of men going to college, or even intending to go to college be falling so dramatically? How does this square with the conventional wisdom of girls in school being a silenced, underserved group? More blacks drop out of school, and fewer go on to college than whites. Should the federal govenment be spending extra resources spicifically trying to improve white education? Should it be sending out educational materials protraying blacks as muggers and criminals, just because statistically they are more likely to be so. Would that be good for blacks self esteem. The governemet does send out educational materials which portray boys as sexual harrassers and rapists. In doing so it has created a hostile environment in schoold for boys.
Math and science are not the only subjects taught at school. When you look at the overall picture, it is boys that are having the hardest time. yet it is only this one area that boys are slightly ahead in (and then only really at the elete level, such as the AP courses) that gets all the attention. Where is the concern about boys falling very far behind in foregin languages, or our native language for that matter? Dan has pointed out that his campus, a very well known, large and state supported institution is almost 70% female. that means that girls outnumber boys by more than 2-1. Imagine the screams from NOW if it were the other way around! higher education is the key to success in this world, now more than ever before. For half the population, that door is being more and more kept locked.

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Confused boy
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I believe I have tracked down the fault in the statistic you quoted John. I assume its a misprint but its very hard to know when you have complicated statistics that may be presented in a deliberately confusing way when used to expound a certain argument:

"boys answered girls 26% of the time girls 69% of the time."

Seems like you have 2 VERY different results there in the same sentence! So one of those "girls" should become "boys" and that will very much effect that particular set of statistical evidence and conclusions that can be drawn from them.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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John Doe
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Thanks CB.
Yes in answer to the question "Who do teachers think are smarter, boys or girls?

26% of the boys answered that they percived the teachers thinking that boys were smarter, and 69% of the boys answered that they percived the teachers as thinking girls were smarter.
I guess i should proof read these posts a bit before I hit the "Submit Reply" field. My inital response to the question I skipped over my use of girls twice and focused on the stats not adding up to 100% as the source of confusion. sorry about that.


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emsily0
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well...let's see.

UC berkeley is 50% male.
so is the university of texas at austin.
georgia tech is 71% male.
the rutgers university school of engineering is 78% male.
not to mention ALL the military academies, which are overwhelmingly male.
the list goes on and on.

yes, many of the liberal arts schools have a slight female majority. but it's not as dramatic as you say. at my school, a highly ranked northeastern small liberal arts school, i believe the ratio is 49% men and 51% women. furthermore, many of these schools, such as hamilton and dartmouth, were all-male until fairly recently.

i too would be interested in any constructive suggestions you might have as to reaching gender equality in the classroom.

em

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Boys and girls in America have such a sad time together; sophistication demands that they submit to sex immediately without proper preliminary talk. Not courting talk - real straight talk about souls - for life is holy and every moment is precious. I heard the Denver and Rio Grande locamotive howling off in the mountains. I wanted to pursue my star further. -Kerouac


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John Doe
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You are right that focusing on individual schools is not very productive, and can be misleading. For example you are right that Hamilton used to be an all boys school intil fairly recently, however for a long time before that all of its classes were open to girls from Kirkland and vice versa (I happen to know about Hamilton since its my Dad's alma mater). It is more useful to look at the overall statistics. In 1996, there were 8.4 million women and 6.7 miillion men enrolled in college. That translates to 55.6% female, 44.4% male. In a sample that large it is highly statistically significant. Furthermore the gap has been growing.
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emsily0
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ok, but do you have any constructive suggestions?

em


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John Doe
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First and foremost there should be an acknoledgement that there is a problem. Then I think that things like "take your daughter to work day" should be transformed into "take your child to work day". Some schools have already done this, but there are still some which will charge a boy with an absence on that day, but not a girl. If we are going to have special science and math workshops for girls, then we should have an equal emphisis on special reading and writting workshops for boys. An end to writting and reading excercises that are hostile to boys would be useful as well.
For example, a group of 7th graders were told. "Imagine that the woman closest to you, your mom or sister is being raped, close your eyes and think about it for a minute, Ok now write how you feel about it" These are the sorts of exercizes that are suggested in many DOE materials and promoted at "gender equity in the classroom" conferences. What message does that send to boys about themselves as future men. Doesn't it tell them that they are potential rapists by virtue of being male. Does this sort of thing turn them on to writting?
Perhaps there needs to be an effort to encourage more men to go into primary education as a field. That might give boys more male rolemodels who they associate with learning. Of course to do that the society must get over the hysteria it feels at the thought of a man having any sort of bodilly contact with a child. men are leary of going into that feild because they know that if they gave a sudent a hug of encouragement, they could quickly be labled a pervert and ruined.
There is not all that much we can do about it as individuals. I am not an educator, nor do i work for the Department of education.

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Dzuunmod
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I gotta say John, I've never heard of a 'take your daughter to work day' before. I've only heard of 'take your child to work day'.
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'rin
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i liked the point laura made about the fact that non college educated boys have more job oportunities than non college educated girls. welding pays better than waitressing. (and i've done both, personally i think welding is the easier of the two if you're physically strong enough - there are no cooks or customers to harrass you, just your boss and coworkers, and mistakes in metel are easier to fix than dropped food.) ok, to clarify what i meant about the pendulum thing - something that i have noticed in my study of cultures in general is that change doesn't happen in a straight line - it doenst just go from where it is to where people want it to be. when you are trying to change an entire culture, you get people excited about it, you get them motivated, you get the ball rolling - this takes a while mind you - and you start things in the direction you want them. it's just as hard to stop as it was to stop, and by the time you stop the change you've effected has overshot where you meant to be. so you have to go back. and forth. and eventually somebody gets it right. cultural change is not an exact thing, as much as most of us probably wish it was. right now, we're living in a culture where it is taken for granted that both major candidates for president will be men goes hand in hand with the fact that stay at home fathers are looked down on. neither is fair, at all, but i think that our situation right now is more ballanced than it has ever been before in this culture. as an egalatarinaist, i believe that men and women are intrincically equal, and i try to educate the people around me about that fact. and i thank goodness that i was born when and where i am, because to me it feels as though we are on the cusp of that equality. i guess that's why i get angryish when people are fighting over which gender has it better or worse, b/c having either gender above the other is a loss overall.
'rin

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Posts: 219 | From: lost in yonkers | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
John Doe
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'rin,
there is a lot of truth to what you say about the force of intertia and getting the ball rolling, and stopping it once it is rolling. I guess i'm just trying to get the ball rolling, and meeting a lot of resitance as i do so. Getting back to the start of this thread (which has sort of gotten sidelined on to the education topic, which is fine, but should probably be in a renamed thread), I find resistance comes both from some feminists, and also from some chavanists

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lemming
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<grammar Nazi> chauvinists. </grammar Nazi>
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John Doe
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I never claimed to be able to spell, some of it comes from being dyslexic, some from being a bad typist, and some from sheer laziness in going back and checking.
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'rin
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cause i don't know how to do that kewl quote thing:
"I find resistance comes both from some feminists, and also from some chavanists"
i have to agree with john there. i think that some feminists are afraid of true equality for the same reason that some chauvinsts (?sp) are. they have, or feel they have, something to gain from inequality. (not the words some, please. i know that most feminists are into euqality plain and simple, but unfortunately some of the more radical strands of this movement are also the most vocal).
'rin

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"-and i hope i'm not shooting my mouth off...again...and i pray i'm not tempting the fates....."
-james, off millionaires
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-ben franklin


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BruinDan
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Dzuunmod, out here in the US the "Take Your Daughters to Work Day" was initiated in 1991 and changed to "Take Your Children to Work Day" in 1997. Pressure from various groups resulted in the change, and it has henceforth been all-encompassing for kids of both genders. When it started (and incidentally, the first one was on 12th birthday), my friends and I found it strange because our junior high was essentially turned into an all-boys school for a day. Since then though, parents have bene encouraged to take both sons and daughters to work...and I think that works out a bit better.

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Confused boy
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<language Bolshevik> "chavinist" is not a grammatical error. It is a spelling error and more likely to be a typographical error in this case </language Bolshevik>

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[This message has been edited by Confused boy (edited 10-12-2001).]


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Bobolink
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Take your child to work and let him/her see what soul-destroying things you have to endure on order to keep them in Reeboks and designer jeans.

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We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.

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lemming
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<copy editrix>in that case, confused boy, it had been repeated so many times that I was certain it was not a typo. but I do appreciate that comment. silly boy. you're such a smartypants. </copy editrix>
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sapphirecat
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<sarcasm>Let's fill the board with major theoretical discussions about extremely important issues such as the exact nature of a particular error. Obviously, we should be debating spelling and grammar instead of Sexual Ethics and Politics. It's so much more interesting.</sarcasm>
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LilBlueSmurf
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The advocate part of me wants to remind you of your tone here, saphire ... Tho i do admit you have a good point. Maybe this thread could get back on topic ...?
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FlutterBy01
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I read through most of the posts and skimmed through others, and one thing seems to stand out in all of them. You seem to assume that everyone wants the same thing out of life. How many women have gone into a math or science related profession as compared to the number of men? Well, how many women have wanted to? While I don't deny that sexism exists, it is not as rampant an injustice as you seem to be making it out to be. From my schooling experience, girls are on average considered to be more intelligent if not more mature than boys. In my honors, gifted, advanced, or AP classes, I haven't noticed an overwhelming majority of either sex. Have I noticed that the girls on average score better in the class than boys? Yes. Does it seem that an equal amout of girls as boys are planning on going to college? From what I can see, yes, although it might lean more towards the girls. But college doesn't say everything. If a girl wants to go into stripping, is happy with her choice, and ends up making more per week than her best friend in high school who went to college and grad school to become a doctor, lawyer, scientist, ect, but is also happy with her career, who's to say who is better off? It seems to me that, now with affirmative action, women heading into a specialized career almost have an advantage over men, because many companies are now searching for qualified female employees.

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