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» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sexual Ethics and Politics » Affirmative Action

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Author Topic: Affirmative Action
Gumdrop Girl
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I was just gonna post this under my thread in Village People, but I'm putting here at lemming's request.

Today, I participated in my first protest. I decided to get out there stand up for what I believed. And for that, I had bottles hurled at me, threats made against me, and slurs & expletives spat in my face (someone called me a "white supremacist" ). Angry members of the opposition stole our signs from our table and out of our hands and ripped them up. I can safely say that my right to free speech was violated today.

oops, I'm about to go off on the Free Speech tangent...(back on track)

Today was the Day of Action at UC Berkeley. Students gathered to protest the ban on affirmative action in the University of California system.

For those of you who are not familiar with affirmative action, I'll try to be as unbiased as possible in describing it. Affirmative Action is the use of racial preferencing or quotas to ensure the diversity of the population in a public insitution. Those in favor of affirmative action cite the plummeting numbers in minority enrollment at the UC. They contend that by banning affirmative action, African-Americans and Latinos are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to admissions to the university.

Well, guess what. I protested in favor of the ban on affirmative action. And that pissed off a LOT of people (just how many bottles were thrown at me?).

And 'cause I was on the dissenting side (oh god, don't ask me about dissenting in Berkeley, it's damn near impossible!), I had a lot of press interviewing me. I think I was on the evening news, too. I also had a lot of people yelling at me and accusing me of racism.

But here's my side of it. Why am I against AA? Because, imho, anything that involves racial preferencing is inherently racist. According to admissions standards, I would qualify as a disadvantaged, underrepresented minority. With AA, I could check a box and up my chances of admittance. But would I feel good about myself if I got into UC Berkeley because of my race? No, I wouldn't. I got here because I worked hard to get here and I wouldn't want to have it any other way.

Thanks to a lot of word perversion, I was made to look like I wanted to keep the black and Latino kids out of Cal. No way! I'd like to see them all make it in. But I don't want it to be the result of racial quotas. I don't want them getting in over some other kid who worked his/her tail off in school simply because the school needs more minority enrollment.

I think we need to think better solutions through. Making improvements to public elementary, middle school and high schools would be a great start. More funding. More books, More school days. And I hope community involvement wouldn't be too much to ask. Parents asking their kids what they learned in school today? Bake sales to fund trips to the art museum? More AP/IB/Honors classes in urban schools? Volunteer tutors?

Diversity is important, but not at the expense of merit. Your thoughts please?

and check out SF Chronicle's account of the rally.

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Kill your TV! And while you're at it, your mobile phone, too.


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LilBlueSmurf
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Are you serious?! That's insane!!

But i know what it's like to be the minority. I'm 110% Canadian and white as a ghost ... but i wasn't the majority. I lived in Toronto and about 75% of my school was born in another country. Odd ...

Why do you need to put your race on an application? I don't understand why that should matter ... i heard they were doing something like that here, w/ jobs and such, b/c there IS a racial quota. That makes no sense tho. Just b/c someone is of a different race doesn't mean s/he can do a better job ...

What they're doing is racism ... But it seems that racism only counts if it's against minority. That's the only kind that anyone seems to care about ... ??


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Heather
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On a lot of levels, Gumdrop, I very much agree with you (and what happened to you was ridiculous and completely apalling).

However, what I would say is that until everyone in this country can get fair legal representation cheaply and freely and until the laws are such that discriminiatory practices really are strongly and soundly protected against, I'm afraid that Affirmative Action may well be the lesser of two evils.

Believe me, I've had harsh feelings about it -- I recall in college being incensed that regardless of the fact that I was poor, had incredible grades, worked hard and was only a first-generation full citizen in my family, because I was caucasian, I could not qualify for aid which others in a far better position than I was could who were not caucasian.

And yet, another part of me feels that if I have to make some personal sacrifices or get shaftered a few times for very large groups to get a foothold after centuries of bias and bigotry, I can live with that.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

"If you're a bird, be an early early bird --
But if you're a worm, sleep late." - Shel Silverstein


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Rizzo
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This is a really tough topic, and I've been on both sides...right now I'd say I'm pro-affirmative action. While I can understand wanting to be judged on relevant merits, I think until things are a little more balanced, affirmative action's a good way to go.

A lot of minorities come from economically disadvantaged homes, and it's really hard to rise through the ranks on your own. Why are they under-represented in high paying jobs? Not because they're stupid, or less qualified than white men, but because they haven't had access to the same opportunities. Maybe if they get a helping hand and a university education, they'll be able to afford these types of opportunities for their children. Obviously the hope is that one day we won't need A.A. anymore.

If you're a minority, and you're confident of your abilities, then no one's forcing you to indicate your race on your application.


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Bobolink
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Hi Gumdrop:

What you experienced was, unfortunately, not uncommon. Campus groups can frequently be dominated by people with their own personal agendas. What you experienced was Fascism in action. Himmler and Beria would have been proud of your oppressors.

These are the people who would make great secret police.

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"A free society is a place where it's safe to be unpopular."

- Adlai Stevenson


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exit seraphim
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i have issues with this.

I work so incredibly hard in all honors classes, join clubs i'm interested in, do lots of community service, because i know that because i'm caucasian, even though i probably will need a lot of financial aid because of my parents financial situation(although i've been working hard saving my money in a special college account), i won't get college benefits specifically because of my race. Not that i wouldn't do community service or join clubs or work hard in school otherwise, it's just that i need these things to get into college.

recently, i was invited to do a leadership program in DC. so was my friend who happens to be hispanic and whose family happens to be more well off then mine. The 1,700 dollar price tag was too much for my family...but because she was female and hispanic, she also got a scholarship to go to this seminar. we were both deserving of the trip, but because of her race, she gets a significant amounted chopped off the tuition.

after i read this topic, i asked my mom about it, and she has similar feelings. her family was poor, but she went to marist college in the 70's while working two work/stdy programs. because she was white, she had to maintain a 2.0gpa to stay there. she worked in the financial aid office, and came to the realization when she was 18 years old that life was not fair, without her family there to talk about it or this wonderful message board she was quite angered when she saw the financial aid/files of a female minority student who had not maintained even a 1.6gpa her entire time there, barely went to class, yet got a stipen to live off campus, a transam, and still had full tuition covered.

Shouldn't these perks be given to someone who actually deserves them and wants to work for them, no matter what their ethnicity, not just because of it? I think benefits should be given to those who deserve them, and definately NOT by race.

BTW, is AA illegal now?

-justine

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have i been wrong?
have i been wise?
to shut my eyes and play along?


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Baptist
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Affirmative Action only hurts our educational system. Personal excellence should be the only qualification to get into a school.

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"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."

-Thomas Jefferson


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Gumdrop Girl
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whoa. I have a copy of all the major papers in the Bay Area, and I *wasn't* quoted in three: SJ Mercury, Berkeley Daily Planet and SF Examiner.

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Kill your TV! And while you're at it, your mobile phone, too.


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Lucky1402
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It makes alot of sense that you would rather be admitted to college based on how good of a student you are than what your race is. I'm kind of neutral on this subject, though. I understand what you mean, about feeling wrong to be admitted because you are a minority. Everyone should be given equal chances because of how good they are. On the other hand, it could be useful in certain situations. Many, many people are prejudiced nowadays, and that could have a direct effect on whether they get into a college or not, even if they are good, intelligent students. Until people mellow out and start putting aside differences, AA might not always be bad. It could help hard working minority members get a better chance at admittance. But it could also be detrimental to those white students who are working hard, but aren't of a minority group, or those who are only being rcognized by their skin color.

I don't know, I'm at a loss.

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*^Lucky^*
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Gumdrop Girl
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Whether or not AA is in effect depends on where you are, in terms of schools anyway. Proposition 209 was a California referendum that meant to ban affirmative action in CA's public universities. It was passed by the vote of the public. So this means all UC schools are barred from using affirmative action (so whether or not the Regents repeal the ban on AA, it doesn't matter because 209 overrides their decision).

But what about other schools? Stanford still has affirmative action. They are *private*. Some states have AA bans in effect. Some don't.

Can anyone post a list of AA banned states?

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Kill your TV! And while you're at it, your mobile phone, too.


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SlowCookie
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I tried to find a list but no luck. Here in Florida, AA is banned. If you're in the top 20% of your graduating class, you're automatically admitted to a Florida university. However, you won't necessarily get into the one of your choice. Simply being 18% or 19% does not guarantee your admittance to UF, although it may get you accepted to FIU.

I'm a minority who is not in favor of AA. I think that if you aren't good enough, then you aren't good enough. If you can't get into a college with your grades, test scores, community service, essays and whatever else, then you simply don't belong there. Simple. To me, this issue is very cut and dry, however faulty that may be.

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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.


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Rizzo
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Well Slowcookie, judging from the posts on this thread, looks like you're not in the minority around here
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Eclipse
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Gumdrop, I'm really sorry you were injustly harrassed for sticking up for your beliefs on what's really a very difficult issue. I think it's just as hard to hold a 'conservative' position in a 'liberal' community as vice versa. I have a friend here at my extremely liberal college (New College, in Sarasota, Florida) who is pro-life, and a couple of years ago when abortion was a big issue on campus, a feminist group threw a brick through his dorm window, I kid you not. Let me stress that my friend wasn't an activist, wasn't harassing pro-choice activists, and wasn't being destructive in any way, and while I do not agree with his position on this topic, he's a good person. And really. A brick through the window.

Now the more difficult part. The thing is, AA is a *systematic* response to the *symptoms* of hundreds of years of severe systematic injustice that continue on in to the present day. As a systematic response to systematic injustice, it's going to result in its own injustices on the individual level, like those that several here have had personal experience with. And as a treatment of symptoms, it has no lasting or inherent merit, only merit in so far as the symptoms exist and there's no easy cure for the causes (though goodness knows plenty of people are working on it).

I find it very difficult to object to AA in as much as compared to the extremity of the hundreds of years history of racial oppression, it's really an exceedingly paltry gesture. I find AA disturbing in as much as it enforces a variety of divisions that are perhaps better not so starkly institutionalized right now. Certainly, if any preferable alternative is proposed, I'll gladly support that instead.

I think admitting people to schools based on personal excellence would be a fine thing, if only there were any way of measuring, comparing, or even easily recognizing personal excellence. Alas, there is not.

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited 03-10-2001).]


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Ron
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Its ironic, Gumdrop that you got such treatment for expressing your beliefs. AA is supposed to be about overcoming intolerance and discrimination.

Its fine to say that hard work and excellence should be the only criteria. But how do we measure that? Grades? SAT tests? Both of those have been shown in many studies to be biased by race and cultural background. In other words, you will get better grades and SAT scores just for being white and middle class with educated parents, *without having to work hard for them*.

How do we know if a disadvantaged person is hard working and excellent if we don't give them and opportunity to learn how to show it? That's what AA is all about.


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FlirtieGirlie
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What IS Affirmative Action?

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Kids in the backseat cause accidents. Accidents in the backseats cause kids! (So be careful!) Luvs to Jeremy! Email me at Ladybug705@yahoo.com


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Dzuunmod
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FlirtieGirlie,
Gumdrop explained it in the first post to this topic.

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Lynne
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quote:
Grades? SAT tests? Both of those have been shown in many studies to be biased by race and cultural background. In other words, you will get better grades and SAT scores just for being white and middle class with educated parents, *without having to work hard for them*.
Were economic factors and the importance of education within the cultures of disadvantaged minorities figured into this? My understanding of this general argument is that grades and SAT scores are biased towards white Western culture. The fact that Asians are on par with whites in terms of grades and SAT scores, however, causes that argument to fall apart, leading me to believe that economic factors and the importance of education within the culture of certain minorities plays more of a role. If that is the case, then giving further funding to these schools (I have no idea how that could be accomplished fairly, though, as I don't think that affluent people -- or anybody, for that matter -- should have to watch their money go fund a school that any children they have will never conceivably attend if they don't want it to) and making sure people are aware of the importance of education is a better -- and fairer -- solution than AA. (Of course, if those two factors were included in the studies, and blacks and Latinos still came out on the bottom, then I'll have to revise my position as to whether or not the grading system and the SATs are biased.)

I'm against AA. I don't think it's fair, and the argument that it makes up for historical injusticies doesn't fly with me. I personally haven't been committing acts of injustice against minorities, so why should I pay the price for previous generations who did?

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To the rational mind there can be no offense, no obscenity, no blasphemy, but only information of greater or lesser value.
-- Jennifer Diane Reitz

[This message has been edited by Lynne (edited 03-10-2001).]


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SlowCookie
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I'm not aiming any of this at you Ron, so please don't take it personally.

I read the recent issue of TIME and their special report on the SATs. I'm not buying that crap about, "We're minorities, we come from disadvantaged backgrounds; that's why we do poorly on the SATs."

You know how I got here? When I was 14 days old, my parents got on a rickety boat, hoping that they would get to any place better than Vietnam. Out in the middle of the sea, the boat starts to leak. They used a bar of soap, a gift my mom received for my birth, to patch up the hole. It's amazing that I didn't die. To make a long story short, we made it to the States. My parents aren't college educated, my mom didn't even finish grade school. I learned to speak english by watching Sesame Street. My dad rode a bike to work, doing menial jobs. We didn't speak english, we didn't know anyone.

Despite all that, I did pretty damn well on my SATs. I didn't get a perfect 1600 but you don't see me blaming it on the fact that my parents aren't white and educated. My background doesn't consist of a house in the suburbs with 2 cars and a dog. Yes, I'm only one person but there are many people like me out there. So when someone starts spewing about how they never had any opportunities, take it somewhere else. Don't use your minority status and disadvantaged backgrounds as an excuse. Nothing prevents you from working hard. I'm no ant but I'm not sitting around relying in AA either.

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You know, Hobbes, sometimes even my lucky rocketship underpants dont help.
-Calvin


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Heather
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Cookie, it sounds to me like you have a very beautiful and incredible immigration story. I'm always sorry my grandmother didn't live long enough to tell hers, and my father was too young to remember.

If you're ever up to writing about it in more depth at some point, I think personal immigration stories would be excellent articles.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

"If you're a bird, be an early early bird --
But if you're a worm, sleep late." - Shel Silverstein


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Lin
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Oh cookie, that is a beautiful story.

My grandfather came to Singapore from China too. And he worked very hard to bring up my dad and his two brothers along with my grandma.

And lookie here, I have someone else to ask for help when I sit for my SATs.

And this is the first time I have heard of AA. But from what little I have found out about it, I would say that I'm with Gumdrop. Any kind of racial preference is indeed racist. You go gummie.


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hmm987
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couldn't have said it better myself, Gumdrop. Rarely do I find someone who shares my view of AA...
It IS a form of racism... just a different form than what we're used to hearing about.

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Ron
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SATs are being abandoned by major universities for admittance due to the built in biases and other problems. Culture does have a lot to do with it, especially whether parents value education and are educated themselves. Economics is also a factor.

The issues are complex and require compassion rather than morally uplifting stories about how some people overcome all the odds and live the american dream. The fact is there is a huge and growing underclass that is growing up with out the basic skills needed to participate in the brave new world of american prosperity. If ways are not found to improve the opportunities for these people then they will destroy our society. Its that simple.

I'm open to hearing better suggestions than AA. I sure there are better ways, what are they? But saying to an inner city minority kid who lives in an apartment with 30 other people, most of whom have spent more time in jail than in school, just to "just work hard" is kind of the same logic as abstinance sex education, ie it just doesn't address the problem.


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momma cat
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The problem with AA is it makes a generalization about symptoms and does very little to address the problem. Under AA, a white child growing up with 30 meth-lab running adults in one apartment will have less opportunities for advancement than a black child growing up in the same situation across the street. The problem with AA is that it says the black child should be admitted to a college for keeping up a lower GPA than the white child. Find fault in the logic here if you can, but giving more money and opportunities to someone based on race alone implies that for the same amount of effort, they will acheive less than the white child. This reeks of racial superiority/inferiority to me, which I just don't believe in. Same thing with giving Suzy with a 3.0 a larger scholarship than Jack with a 3.2.

I really can only condone need and merit based ANYTHING. Scholarships should go to kids who just happen to be born to less affluent families, and openings in college should go to who has worked the hardest to earn them. There just shouldn't be a line for race or gender on the forms.


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Ron
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Your logic is ok, momma cat but the underlying assumptions are not. What you say would be fine if racial equality was a fact. But racial discrimination is the fact. Seventy percent of the people in jail are non.white, and for every inner city white kid like you describe there are 10 black ones, even though they are only something like 20 per cent of the population. AA is combat discrimination, so it has to discriminate the other way.
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BruinDan
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I have been a visitor to this site for nearly a year now, but have never posted...up until now I have read and learned. But today, when I stumbled upon this thread, I felt compelled to register and speak.

First of all, I think GumdropGirl has really hit on something. Like her, I attend a UC school (I'll let you guess, based upon my nickname..haha), which I entered in the Fall of 1997. My class was the last one which was subject to race-based admission factors, as Affirmative Action was banned for all subsequent classes. Since then, there has been protest after protest, riot after riot, all by a very vocal segment of the student populace who favor the return of AA. Faced with such a group of people, it becomes very difficult to voice an opinion that is different from theirs.

I think GumdropGirl definitely had her First Amendment rights trampled on...these days it has become more and more difficult to speak your mind unless you agree with the majority. It almost seems that Freedom of Speech is fine only in cases when you are part of the popular opinion.

As for AA, clearly a better answer is needed. I happened to fall in love with a beautiful and intelligent woman during my freshman year (to whom I am still committed to this day). For us, AA was a study in contrasts. I grew up in a lower-middle class family as the oldest of five children. I got my job at 14, and finally banked enough to put myself through college (no student loans, thank heaven!) When I was a junior in high school, I had to cut back my work hours because my mother passed away...I had to help take care of my younger siblings. Not so fun, but life is life, right?

My girlfriend grew up in an upper-class family with two highly intelligent parents. Her father has a PhD in Acoustical Engineering, and her mother received her BA as well. She came from a very expensive, very highly respected private school, and entered UCLA with a lower GPA and SAT than I had. She also came to college with a host of opportunities that I was not offered. Tuition Assistance, free mentoring, free tutoring, academic assistance, essay review programs, test-taking classes, and the one that really burned me up--priority enrollment for classes.

Why did she get these wonderful programs? What was the difference between us? My parents were born in America. Her parents were not. Even though her mother had moved to the United States from Mexico when she was 9 months old, my girlfriend was considered to be a "minority" and was granted special status.

Because she was did not believe this was fair, she turned down every program that was "specially" offered to her. I thought long and hard about it, and came to the realization that things which were based purely upon race were wrong. Plain and simple. How is AA any different than Jim Crow progams were in the 1960's? Sure, the intentions are different, but the message that is being sent is the same: The color of your skin dictates the treatment you will get.

Ron, while I agree that something is needed to help equalize opportunities among all people, I respectfully disagree with your belief that AA is needed to counteract the racist American society. My SAT had five written segments which dealt with Sandra Cisneros, W.E.B. DuBois, Fredick Douglass, Amy Tan, and Maya Angelou. I did not have a shared experience with any one of those fantastic writers, but still managed to understand the SAT and get through it.

Thanks, GumdropGirl, for bringing such a thought-provoking thread to the forefront. =)

--Danny


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Heather
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quote:
My SAT had five written segments which dealt with Sandra Cisneros, W.E.B. DuBois, Fredick Douglass, Amy Tan, and Maya Angelou...

THAT is incredible. Okay, for those of us who are less optimisti about this stuff at times, let me say that when I took the SATs 15 years ago, that was SO not the case.

That is truly excellent.

And that was an excellent post, Danny. Glad you finally spoke up!

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

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But if you're a worm, sleep late." - Shel Silverstein


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daniel
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Question, Gumdrop, although I don't know if you'll have the answer... how has the enrollment of minorities been affected since affirmative action was banned in this case?
Posts: 105 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BruinDan
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Hi Daniel,

As another member of the wonderful UC system (I didn't like teargas as much as Gumdrop Girl, so I chose LA instead of Berkeley), I can help answer this question.

At UCLA, minority admissions have increased 14% since SP-1 was placed into effect with the incoming class of 1998. If it is okay with the moderators, I will link you to an article which discusses the results of AA's demise. It does vary somewhat from school to school, but it is interesting nonetheless.
http://www.blackstocks.com/in_news/9298d/page2445.htm

Hope this helps.

Take care!

--Danny

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Ron
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Thanks, Danny, for sharing your experiences and information on this subject. I never said that AA was "needed" to counteract racism, I only meant that that was its intention. I personally know people who were given a chance to enter a positive challenging environment where they were able to find a better life, an opportunity they just wouldn't have had without affirmative action. I also know people for whom the effort and cost were just a waste.

I don't know the answer. If it's not AA, then what? What I do know is that this right stuffer argument of "excellence and hard work" is just baloney that does not help solve the problem. I have a feeling that the problem lies in our public elementary schools and their relationship to the families they are supposed to serve, but like I say, I don't have the answers.


Posts: 364 | From: San Cristobal de Las Casas, Chiapas, Mexico | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Daniel
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Interesting article, thanks

I just hope that enrollment and the levels stay at good levels... if a university can show AA is not required to keep the levels of minority students at suitable levels, it'll be something to smile about.


Posts: 105 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gumdrop Girl
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quote:
I have a feeling that the problem lies in our public elementary schools and their relationship to the families they are supposed to serve, but like I say, I don't have the answers.

Ron's got a good point here. I'll agree that there are some serious reforms needed within the K12 public school system. But it's hard to serve a community that is apathetic toward schools and education. Which is not to say these people are against education, but what can you do when the only real (and somewhat unfeasible) solution is to change the mindset of the community to emphasize the importance of getting a proper education. What can you do about parents who honestly do not care whether their children go to school. You wind up with poor attendance and low scores.

As for BruinDan's question about the demographics of the UC, UCLA and UC Berkeley have both shown lower numbers of minority enrollment if you compare the years prior ot SP-1 and the years after SP-1. However, since the implementation of SP-1, minority enrollment is on the rise again.

This however is in jeopardy because I don't know about UCLA, but the Minority Outreach Programs at UC Berkeley have announced as of last week that they will no longer recruit or even promote UC as a place for them to get an education. In fact, they will actively discourage blacks and Latinos from attending the UC. This is their way of protesting SP-1.

But I think this is selfish and counter-productive. And it in no way will bring positive results to their cause because even if the Regents repeal SP-1, it is up to the State of California to repeal Prop 209 (the measure that bans AA in all California public schools). If the outreach programs want to stop doing their job, then I think the least they could do is to stop accepting ASUC (Associated Students of the UC) funding.

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Posts: 12677 | From: Los Angeles, CA ... somewhere off the 10 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gumdrop Girl
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And one more topic that is emerging is the disproportionate number of Asians in the UC system. Lately, there have been some reports of hate crimes and attacks on Asian students at UC Davis.

If you ever visit a UC campus, you will quickly notice that there are a lot of people of Asian descent, or international students from Asia. At Berkeley, we make up a plurality at 43%. At UC Irvine, Asians are a majority at 60%.

The concern is that the Asian and Asian-American population within the UC system is grossly disproportionate to the population at large. And with the decreased numbers in minority non-Asian (because most Asians are no longer considered a minority) enrollment, it's becoming easier to scapegoat Asians for displacing other ethnicities.

This issue is quickly becoming a new source for racial tensions in the University, as if there wasn't enough tension to go around.

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Posts: 12677 | From: Los Angeles, CA ... somewhere off the 10 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BruinDan
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I just got done reading an article in the Los Angeles Times about yesterday's protest over AA at UCLA. I noticed that many of the protesters were exceptionally young...and I was right. The article stated that students from several inner-city high schools were bussed to UCLA to participate in the protest. One has to wonder at who's expense this bussing took place.

The most remarkable part of the article is the last three paragraphs. Apparently many students who participated in the protest had no idea what they were even there for. This is definitely an article worth reading.
http://www.latimes.com/communities/news/los_angeles_metro/20010315/t000022583.html

Ron, again, I think you have touched on a very vaild point. The primary school system has a heavy responsiblity when it comes to educating children, but it cannot function alone. It takes parents who are serious about their childrens' success, parents who are willing and able to spend time with the school and with their kids to create the appropriate learning environment. Sadly, there are not many parents who are able to, or who choose to spend that kind of quality time working with their childrens' school. As a result, the kids suffer from the outset. There may never be a perfect solution, but something has to be out there. And one day an answer will present itself in a form that is much more workable, practical, and acceptable than the current AA system.

Take care guys!

--Danny

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Remember...absence makes the heart grow fungus.

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Lynne
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quote:
Seventy percent of the people in jail are non.white, and for every inner city white kid like you describe there are 10 black ones, even though they are only something like 20 per cent of the population.
Again, Ron, have you taken into consideration economic factors?

Personally, I think a fair way to equalize things (beyond improving schools in poor neighborhoods) would be to take into consideration an individual's situation. This way, anybody who has a life so hard that it prevents them from working as hard in school as they could is given an opportunity, whether they are poor inner city students or white members of the middle class. Poor minorities who have to struggle financially get a chance this way, and middle class whites from abusive homes don't lose that chance simply because they happen to be white. Yes, it would mean that the university had to take extra time in the admissions process, but not that much more: students already write admissions essays. It would be fair, though. (And yes, people could lie in the essay, but people can probably find ways to cheat the current AA system.)

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[This message has been edited by Lynne (edited 03-15-2001).]


Posts: 266 | From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sympathys_Sin
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Affirmative Action is just one more thing in this country that started out as a good idea but just went too far. My opinion is that whether or not it is fair, universities should let whoever they want into their schools. I mean, if some interviewer let his dimwitted half cousin into a certain school just becaus he was family, well... more power to them both. I just think the government should butt out. And if a school is all white, or all black, or all hispanic, who cares anyway? I'm sick of all this "it's not fair, I deserve better" crap. Maybe if the government would leave us alone and stop trying to fix all our problems, we would all stop being such babies. Get what I'm saying?
Posts: 49 | From: MA | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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