More news... A 17 year-old Nigerian girl was sentenced a little while back to receive 100 lashes for having premarital sex, and 80 more for falsely accusing a group of her father's friends of raping her. She lives in Zamfara, a Northern, heavily Islamic state in Nigeria.
If you're outraged about this, why not consider calling your local Nigerian government consulate? A campaign to do just that quickly gained momentum and forced the government here into issuing a formal complaint with the Nigerians. I'm sure a similar U.S. government complaint would carry much more weight. Here is a list of Nigerian consulates and embassies around the world.
There is really not much you can do if it is very strong Islamic society. About 100 years ago, They would kill people that had pre-maritual sex. I don't want to get to graphic so I can't explain what they would do. Now a days they tend to slash or cane you. I come from a country that does it. I really don't think it is the thing to do ir that it is right at all. "Lin" would probablly have more advice for it since she is from a country that I think does the same thing. I think 180 slashes would probablly kill someone if 6 can kill a strong man, then what do you think 180 would do.
Hmm ... it's extremely hard to base an opinion on a society that we know nothing about ...
I live in Canada, and premarital sex happens and un-wed women and children (i say children b/c you ARE a child under the age of 18) get pregnant *everyday*!! Most of this society doesn't believe that premarital sex should be paid for by death. And what if that was the way things turned out? It's not right that people should have to die for doing something as natural as having sex
Again ... this is just my opinion. And i can only base it on what i know from my own society. I'm not living there and i've never been told whether or not i'm a virgin. I've never really been asked!! I wonder what it's like ... Honestly. What would happen if we put ourselves in their shoes and maybe think "wow, we're lucky" rather than "they're all crazy! lets' complain!!" Just a thought ...
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I'm not usually a universalist, but there are a few rules that I think the world -- not just certain societies within it -- needs to follow.
I have a moral objection to any physical punishment, for having committed a crime, for instance.
Smurf, you yourself made note of the fact that this girl is still just that -- a girl, not an adult. Is killing her going to do her any good?
Other notes on the case: Amnesty International says that she had no legal representation at her trial. Other sources also say that she had seven witnesses to support her rape charge, but the judge said that that wasn't enough.
I would be curious to know from our Muslim members, what is the position of the Koran on this? Not tradition but what did the Prophet, peace be upon him, say? I know that he didn't expect Muslims to observe the Ramadan fast if it would jeapardise their health or lives. He wanted Islamic law to be goverened by reason not by fiat. What is his position on people who have been coerced against their will? I will consult my English language copy of the Koran tonight. I always have gotten the feeling that the Prophet was wary of religious fanaticism.
Posts: 3442 | From: Stirling, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000
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Hmm ... alright ... different points to add as well
I don't agree w/ physical punishment either ... or capital punishment (same thing? almost). It's just not right, according to me. Hurting someone physically isn't going to do a lot for their mental state ... or show them right and wrong. They'll just resent you for it
Yes, she is only a "girl" ... And i have no idea what killing her would do. I never said that i thought she should die for this. I said that this is another country w/ totally different beliefs than ours and it's kind of hard to put everything into perspective when you're half way around the world ...
To me, I'd have to say that this sounds a little extreme. Having pre-marital sex doesn't seem like something that should be punishible by death, but this culture seems to think so. The really sad thing is that she may have been raped, and they simply didn't believe her because she was a woman. In many cultures similar to that, women are still viewed as second class citizens. They are thought to be simple, and to lie simply becuase they don't know better, and for this reason, even if she had witnesses, taking her word over the word of the men she accused wouldn't happen.
Another thing that I notice no one has mentioned here yet, is what will happen to the child, assuming that the lashing kills the mother? It will likely be forced to carry the guilt of it's mother's betrayal of their culture with it for the rest of it's life (I use 'it' because I don't remember the article mentioning the gender of the baby). As such, that is essentially saying that two children are being punished for an offense which might not have even truly occured.
It's a terrible situation, I consider myself very lucky to live in the culture I do.
------------------ "Intelligence is like underwear. We all should have it but we shouldn't show it off." ~James Dent
"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart." ~Helen Keller
I understand what you're saying, Smurf, but personally, I think there is absolutely no justification for taking the life of another person, when doing so will not save another's life.
Also, I wonder why there's no mention in any of the articles I've read, about the Nigerian authorities trying to track down the baby's father. Obviously, if one parent (the girl) isn't married, a male is equally guilty of having had sex outside of marriage here, too. Perhaps women are at a bit of a disadvantage when it come to being prosecuted for this "crime", because there is evidence left on them (sometimes) in the form of a baby. Perhaps the Nigerian authorities like it that way...as it gives them an excuse not to go after the man (men).
Where pregnancy is concerned, all the father has to do is flee, and that's it ... he's not the one walking around w/ the big belly and a baby 9 months later. He's not the one being labled hidious names for his "mistake", b/c if he doesn't want anyone to know, then they don't have to know.
I'm guessing Nigerian women are still lagging in the "fight" against men ... well not all men, just men who think they can control us. The only control people should have is over themselves ... And even THAT isn't done most of the time
Oh my God. Phsygnosis, we in Singapore do not do the same thing here.
Yes, we do cane criminals based on the offence. But no one is caned for having pre marital sex. Caning is reserved for rape convicts, illegal immigrants, people convicted of abuse etc.
I know we caned Michael Fay and chewing gum is not allowed. Actually, chewing gum is allowed. It is just illegal to buy or sell it.
Singapore is conservative. yes. But by no means are we a barbaric society. We do not believe in violence. We are too tiny to believe in it.
Alot of people have misconceptions about Singapore. Many think we are part of China. WHile dear David E Kelley, creator of Ally McBeal and the Practice thinks we speak a foreign language.
But just wanted to clear that up. And max number of lashes is 24. And it hurts. It splits the skin but no one dies. Really. And you don't get 24 lashes at a time. But actually that hurts more.
It is very hard for me to judge as well. While yes, nobody should die for having sex, it is a different culture and society. I bet if I lived there all my life, I would see it as normal. Not barbaric. So there is nothing much I could really say coz that is all there would be. Words on a screen and nothing else.
Lin, I am sorry for what I said. I thought that singapore would be alot like Malaysia due to the fact that Singapore was once part of Malaysia.
To Bobolink, The Koran or Quran, (depending on where you are from) doesn't state all the laws of Muslimaninty. There are also 11 or 13 more books I think ( I am not sure) That are called Hadiths. They will state slot more of the Islamic law then the Koran will. I don't thinl I am allowed to talk about religioun like this in here. So, if you want to know more would you please e-mail me at Phsygnosis@yahoo.com. Miz S. I don't now if talking about a religion is allowed to be spoken in here or not. I know that schools aren't so I didn't want to take the chance here. If I did something wrong please delete this message and forgive me.
Oh please don't apologise. It is no biggy. Just wanted to clarify some stuff in case no one ever dares to step foot in Singapore.
Posts: 2294 | From: Singapore | Registered: Dec 2000
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There are alot of things that are illigle in Countries such as Malaysia and Singapore. In Malaysia, it is illigle to smoke in public places, (malls, shopping centers, on the road etc.) I don't know if I am right about this one but it is illigle in Singapore to seel, buy gum because people will spit it every where. Singapore is a very very clean country and very strict about it. I have only been there once on vacation and it was very strict compared to Malaysia. Lin, if I am wrong please fix my statement for me. Thanx
Basically, it came to a point whereby everyone was really pissed that people were spitting their gum everywhere and sticking their chewed gum all over the place. Cleaners had a really hard time getting the gum off and it started to llok really unsightly. So, zee wonderful government decided to ban it.
We won't get arrested if we chew it but we can't trade gum. So no buying or selling. But everyone ends up buying it in Malaysia anyway.
We have a zillion rules here. My bf just got fined about US$80 for throwing his cigarette butt on the floor. We are really picky about cleanliness. Which is really one of my pet peeves about Singapore. We make ourselves out to be clean and green and we really are but who cleans? Not us. It's the cleaners that are employed.
Most Singaporeands don't think twice about littering. And I think it's just so hypocritical of us. We are so proud about having a clean nation but we don't even pick up after ourselves. But as the souvenir T-Shirts say "Singapore is a FINE country."
It was on CTV and there was a story about a group of Mississauga students that went to Ottawa to protest the lashing. They said that the Nigerian government "welcomed" their suggestions and they're waiting now for results? Isn't that awsome? They cared enough to take the 5 hr drive to parliament!!
...but then again, I read in the paper this morning, that another cases of premarital sex resulting in lashes has come up in the state. This time an 18 year-old has been sentenced after she was found to be pregnant.
Also noteworthy: the original 17 year-old has married, but, of course, not one of the men that she claims fathered her baby.
Smurf- I know it's hard to judge other societies when they're halfway around the world because it's true, they have different standards and traditions and they're used to things that we think are horrible and whatever else you want to say. But really, when you think about it, that's largely a false premise. Female Genital Mutilation is a "tradition" in a lot of countries, but that doesn't make it any less cruel or barbaric, and it certainly doesn't mean that the girls and women who are forced to undergo it, do not find it demeaning. The Taliban has reduced rape and other sex-related crime by severely limiting women's freedom, but women there would rather be allowed to go to school. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, it's important to respect other cultures, but there are certain things that go beyond the lines of respect.
Hey Kids, Here's some good news... the Nigerian court that sentenced the girl has indefinetly postponed her sentence. I found a couple of articles stating it, but neither of them had URLs short enought to post. You can check out the Web sites of the Toronto Star or the Globe and Mail for updates.
Also, if you're interested in getting a different view on the whole thing, check out this article from the Guardian in Lagos, Nigeria. ------------------------------------ Aha! I found one!
[This message has been edited by Dzuunmod (edited 01-15-2001).]
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