Donate Now
We've Moved! Check out our new boards.
  
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » The Randoms » US/China situation

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: US/China situation
Baptist
Activist
Member # 3017

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Baptist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know about anyone else, but I am greatly concerned about the current situation between the US and China. I don't believe that the US did anything wrong and that we don't owe them an apology. I agree with Pat Buchanan that the US should take whatever economic and political steps to get our 24 service personel back. This has gone on for way too long.

This scares me greatly because both our countries have nuclear weapons and tensions are VERY high right now. It sort of reminds me of the Cold War.

Any thoughts?

------------------
"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."

-Thomas Jefferson


Posts: 232 | From: Woodbridge, Virginia, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BruinDan
Activist
Member # 3072

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BruinDan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, it's no fun alright. It is hard to watch 24 Americans be held against their will in a foreign land, especially with such a dangerous standoff going on around them.

But today it was nice to hear President Bush's speech saying that the 24 servicemen and women would be coming home soon. I'm glad they worked something out without resorting to violence. (Although standby for what may happen if the Chinese don't return our plane...<sigh> )

--Danny

------------------
Stupid is forever, but ignorance is curable.

ICQ# 3953848


Posts: 2727 | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bobolink
Activist
Member # 1386

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bobolink         Edit/Delete Post 
The Chinese held onto the American crew because they had to explain a dead Chinese pilot to their own people. There is no way a 4-prop patrol bomber based on a 1960's airliner frame and designed for endurance, not for speed or manouverability could have rammed a Shenyang F-9 single-seat jet fighter except for gross incompetance on the part of the Chinese pilot.

However, I think we can expect that America will get it's plane back the same way they returned a Mig-25 fighter to the Russians, completely dismantled and in packing cases.

------------------
The most exciting phrase in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" ("I found it!") but rather "Hmmm... that's funny...."

- Isaac Asimov


Posts: 3442 | From: Stirling, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BruinDan
Activist
Member # 3072

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BruinDan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
x

[This message has been edited by BruinDan (edited 09-26-2002).]


Posts: 2727 | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bobolink
Activist
Member # 1386

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bobolink         Edit/Delete Post 
Thae Canadian Air Force has "Aurora" and "Arcturus" patrol bombers both based on the Lockheed Electra as is the EP-3. I've seen them demoed at air shows. That's why I found the Chinese claim so absurd. I looked up both planes in "Jane's All the World's Aircraft", the definitive non-military source.

------------------
The most exciting phrase in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" ("I found it!") but rather "Hmmm... that's funny...."

- Isaac Asimov


Posts: 3442 | From: Stirling, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LilBlueSmurf
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 1207

Icon 1 posted      Profile for LilBlueSmurf     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmm ... I think the Americans did do something wrong. Didn't they kill a Chinese pilot or something? Sure it wasn't on purpose, but it was still done.

Now, granted, i know diddly squat about American stuff ... I don't really have to learn it in school and i take no interest in it outside of school, but if i were China, i would expect an apology. Come on ... it's just saying "I'm sorry, we made a booboo"

Besides ... Aren't they sending their "prisoners" home now anyway? That's what i heard this morning on the news. They're supposed to fly to Hawaii and then onto the 'mainland' ... Unless the news is lying to me again. Could be.


Posts: 7168 | From: Ontario | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ThisGuy
Activist
Member # 968

Icon 1 posted      Profile for ThisGuy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a friend currently working on the P-3C fatigue program. That plane is an antique...mind you, so is the B-52...

Baptist, I don't mean to be rude, but this is a sex health site. As fun as politics and philosophy are, they really don't belong here. Could you perhaps stick to discussing sexuality in future?

------------------
Stuff© - try some today!.


Posts: 915 | From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lin
Activist
Member # 2050

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was thinking the same thing as ThisGuy.

But just to add my 2 cents, the US were in Chinese territory spying.

Yes, spying probably goes on everywhere but they were in Chinese territory and that itself is wrong.

I believe that the US owes China an apology. And I think they should be grateful that the Chinese didn't shoot the planes down which they had every right to do. Chinese pilots actually requested to shoot the planes down but it was denied.

I have no idea how different our news is but from what I have read, it is pretty clear cut that the US should at least offer China some sort of apology.


Posts: 2294 | From: Singapore | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Baptist
Activist
Member # 3017

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Baptist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ThisGuy,

MizScarlet gave me full permission to post such things in this particular forum. Actually, it was her idea. She wanted people such as yourself to understand me better by seeing what my interests are. If you have a problem with that, then take it up with her.

Lin,

1. The US plane was over international waters. We were not in Chinese territory.

2. We were not spying. This was a routine surveillance mission.

3. Why do we owe China an apology? We didn't do anything wrong. If anything, the Chinese owe us an apology.

NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM


Posts: 232 | From: Woodbridge, Virginia, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually, this section of the boards is pretty much open to the full gamut of whatever people want to talk about, so Baptist doesn't need my permission to post this topic in here.

So, everybody breathe.


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dzuunmod
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 226

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dzuunmod     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Baptist, if you take what the U.S. military says without questioning it (we were on a routine suveillance mission...) then I think you need to start taking a more critical look at the news you're being given.

What is a 'surveillance mission', anyway? Sounds like jargon for 'spying', to me.

------------------
When you get off work tonight, meet me at the construction site, and we'll write some notes to tape to the heavy machines, like "We hope they treat you well. Hope you don't work too hard. We hope you get to be happy sometimes."
-the Weakerthans


Posts: 1515 | From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
(And IMO, the US should indeed apologize, if for no other reason than to keep its people safe. China could whoop our butts with little to no effort, and it's our attitude of machismo and bravado that tends to get us into these situations in the first place, not of valid concern. If we're going to throw the gauntlet, we may want to start looking before we let the thing fly.)
Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alaska
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 1896

Icon 1 posted      Profile for alaska     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And I completely agree with Miz S here. Over here in Europe, everyone is yet again shaking their heads over the US (and its machismo and world polic attitude) for being so utterly ridiculous about this.

The US got caught spying. A collision occured. A chinese pilot died. And your personnel had to land on Chinese land. And no matter how exactly the accident happened, you should simply apology, simply to get the people out. And that letter that made the return of the US army personnel possible, wouldn't have been a sufficient apology by my standards. But then, that's just me.

[This message has been edited by Alaska (edited 04-12-2001).]


Posts: 4526 | From: germany | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Baptist
Activist
Member # 3017

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Baptist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I get most of my news via shortwave radio and not from the US military. We were in international waters doing something that we have been doing for years and we were not spying. Would a plane like that be used for spying? Heavens, no. We would use something like a U2 or an SR-71. We didn't enter into this situation with a "macho" attitude at all. President Bush's reaction to the incident was anything but "macho." We conducted ourselves in a civil, stately manner and as such, the incident ended peacefully.

The US should NEVER have had to apologize for anything. Pat Buchanan was right when he said that the Chinese were playing the same Cold War game that the Soviets did. Hitler also asked for apologies from the British prior to WWII.

[This message has been edited by Baptist (edited 04-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Baptist (edited 04-12-2001).]


Posts: 232 | From: Woodbridge, Virginia, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No one ever really *has* to apologize for anything.

However, doing so is often gracious, and in our best interest.

Humility is really never something bad. For the most part, it is always beneficial.


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dzuunmod
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 226

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Dzuunmod     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What I mean, Baptist, is that everyone who is reporting on this stuff is getting their information from both the U.S. and Chinese militaries. (I mean, no reporters have been allowed to get close to the soldiers, really.) So, any information whatsoever that comes out of this, needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

And, I'd still like to know what differentiates spying from surveillance.


Posts: 1515 | From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bobolink
Activist
Member # 1386

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bobolink         Edit/Delete Post 
Spying:

Covert operations in a foreign counrty in disguise for the purpose of gaining stategic or tactical military information.

Surveilance:

Overt operations carried out by uniformed military personnel outside the boundaries and territorial waters/airspace of a foreign country. Russia has carried out such surveillance of Canada by air and sea for 40 years. Canadian air and naval forces constantly intercepted them but as long as the Russians kept to international airspace there was nothing to be done but shadow them.

I suspect that is what the PLA Air Force was doing when one of its pilots did something stupid.

------------------
The most exciting phrase in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" ("I found it!") but rather "Hmmm... that's funny...."

- Isaac Asimov


Posts: 3442 | From: Stirling, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Beppie
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 94

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Beppie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's strange how uptight people can get about "I'm sorry"- only two words all in all.

If someone walks too close to me, and I tread on their toe, I say I'm sorry- I don't need to accuse them of walking too close.

Saying you're sorry doesn't always mean you feel that you are to blame- it can mean that you regret that it happened. The US could say "We are sorry, we regret that the pilot was killed," even if the US was not at fault.


Posts: 2710 | From: Australia | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ThisGuy
Activist
Member # 968

Icon 1 posted      Profile for ThisGuy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A bit of perspective:

TR-1 (updated version of the U-2) overflights of China are likely to be fairly dangerous - the threats since Gary Powers was shot down, have greatly increased. That's definitely out.

The SR-71 has effectively been replaced by Keyhole spy satellites. Last I heard, even NASA stopped flying Blackbirds for experiments.

Such flights are largely unnecessary - in effect, between spy satellites and agents, the US gets plenty of data.

However, they need to get close to the mainland to get decent electronic intelligence. So, they do.

Lets face it, no other country in the world has the same level of surveillance and intelligence gathering as the US. U-2 and SR-71 overflights were not reciprocated.

Was this accident a tragic mistake? Yes.
Was the Chinese pilot at fault? Probably.
Should the US have even been there? Maybe, maybe not.

------------------
Stuff© - try some today!.


Posts: 915 | From: Australia | Registered: Aug 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lin
Activist
Member # 2050

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe the news I am getting is very different from what you are getting Baptist.

And I agree with Miz Scarlet. An apology is in the best interest of the people and it is just an apology. Chinese culture and American culture is so different. To us Chinese, "face" is very important. And I believe above all else, that is what the Chinese government wants. It wants an apology so it can give a suitable explanation to its people.

Just to make a stand, Ibelieve that the US owes China a sincere apology because I feel that the US was wrong to spy on them. You call it routine surveillance, I call it spying. I think what's also happening here is that Bush and his administration do not fully understand what makes up Chinese culture and that I feel is in itself disrespectful.

And this might be a silly point to make but I feel that while spying does go on everywhere, the US was careless enough to actually get caught and thus they should be gracious enough to admit it and say sorry.


Posts: 2294 | From: Singapore | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Get the Whole Story! Go Home to SCARLETEEN: Sex Ed for the Real World | Privacy Statement

Copyright 1998, 2014 Heather Corinna/Scarleteen
Scarleteen.com: Providing comprehensive sex education online to teens and young adults worldwide since 1998

Information on this site is provided for educational purposes. It is not meant to and cannot substitute for advice or care provided by an in-person medical professional. The information contained herein is not meant to be used to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease, or for prescribing any medication. You should always consult your own healthcare provider if you have a health problem or medical condition.

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3