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Author Topic: neo nazi scum
OperationIVY
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anyhow me and my friend josh were hanging out, both us being punks ourselves weve been hangin out for about 8 years (neighborhood friend) and were cool with eachother fight after fight about bands (lol) well to the point, a few weeks ago a new family moved on the block, there peruan and since my friend josh is so anti social and rude he calls them "sand ni**ers" well yeah im angry, so showing that im mad i never think he means it and just does it to make me mad, anyhow its been like this for weeks and he always tells me how american history x is such a "cool" movie and how smashing black guys and jewish peoples heads in are such a great thing, and today he was wearing an afi shirt and on his arms he had black marker drawings of the swastika symbol all over him, so i ask him whats with that and hes like "hail hitler, **** anyone whos not white" well me i respect others beliefs (most of the time) i just have a shocked look on my face and dont know how to feel, and i dont want to hang around with him anymore, but ive known him for so long and were like best friends, im confused HOW SHOULD I FEEL?

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"those seconds reveal that the momentum that drives a subculture is more important than any particular band. The momentum is made of all the people who stay interested and keep their sense of urgency and hope" ~jesse (opivy)


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ThisGuy
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Feel how you feel.

Your feelings are your own.

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Cranial space for rent.


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Lin
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If you want you could always have a talk with him telling him how you feel about his actions.

And why you feel that he should tone it down. If he respects the way you feel, he will. Nothing is accomplished by running around slinging racial slurs and wearing T-Shirts like those he likes to wear.

And if he doesn't listen, just slowly drift away from him. If he makes you uncomfortable, why stay in such a friendship? You have a mind of your own, make your own decisions. Gd luck.


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$uMMeR
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If you don't like the way he's acting, you could, like Lin said, try talking to him about it.

After talking with him, and if he is firm and really means what he says, and you don't like it and don't want to hang out with him anymore, you don't have to be friends with him. I'm sure it might hurt, but I recommend you go have a talk with him.

You'll still be confused and have no idea if he really did mean it unless you talk to him.

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*Read my diary

*Read my page

*And...alwayz :)


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OperationIVY
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uh ok no way in hell am i ending my friendship with him, he got me started into punk, and im not losing that, plus 8 years down the drain? dont think so.....ill talk to him but im not ending a relationship just because he has different views, that just means im hypocritical and i dont need that

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"those seconds reveal that the momentum that drives a subculture is more important than any particular band. The momentum is made of all the people who stay interested and keep their sense of urgency and hope" ~jesse (opivy)


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emsily0
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honey, i'm sorry, but no one is telling you that you need to end your friendship with him

that said, they may be his beliefs, and you may not believe in jeopardizing a friendship because of different beliefs, but what you have to remember that if he really is a neo-nazi, his beliefs are WRONG and violent and they hurt people.

so, i don't know if he really believes or even understands that stuff, but even if he doesn't, it's flat-out wrong for him to be even acting it out.

i think you should do some research on the subject: find out more about nazism and hitler, and all the atrocities they committed, and the neo-nazi movement. then i think you should talk to your friend. maybe a well-informed good friend like you is what he needs to hear.

em

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Tout est au mieux dans la meilleure des mondes possibles

Everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
-Voltaire


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Heather
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Would you feel the same way about being his friend were you not Caucasian? Would he even be willing to BE your friend? Probably not. And that isn't hypocrisy, it's something far worse. It's bigotry. In other words, the turn you think you're obligated to do for him isn't likely one he'd do for you if you didn't meet his racial criteria.

Just worth thinking about.

And in the future, while I don't like racism or bigotry either (that's putting it mildly), it's helpful not to turn it on it's ear in topics with titles that call someone "scum," either. That is in and of itself a value judgement.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

"If you're a bird, be an early early bird --
But if you're a worm, sleep late." - Shel Silverstein

[This message has been edited by Miz Scarlet (edited 03-30-2001).]


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Heather
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...and it sounds to me like your friend really missed the point of "American History X."

It was great movie. But one thing it did not do was to glorify or endorse neo-nazi or racist ideas in any way. It, in fact, did quite the opposite.


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OperationIVY
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hes never acted this way before, cause ive known him ever since i moved here, and i dunno i guess he thinks its so "hardcore" to do it and going on with this white power bs, and tomarrow ive thought ahead of time to ask him if i were black if he would still talk to be before he started this crap....i hope its a phase
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Gumdrop Girl
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i don't really have a solution to the problem 'cause it's hard to change people's minds when they're dead set in one mode.

but i think it's so ironic that he fancies himself such a "punk" when he spouts hate and racism. imho, that's the antithesis of what punk rock stands for: freedom, individuality, and change.

if josh is your friend, then he's your friend, but you have full right to argue and disagree with his beliefs and full right to defend your own opinions. if his hate-talk bothers you (it owuld bother me, too), then tell him, "hey, that's not cool."

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This space reserved for the free exchange of thoughts and ideas.


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OperationIVY
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ive been tellin him its not cool, he just smiles nods and does that chest salute thing, ugh, and hes my best bud, and im thinking punks about peace and equality, maybe not when it started but its evolved so much, and i dont want to not talk to him because he has different beliefs, we usually fight and hang out the next few days, but anyways, i dont want to loose him as a friend, cause he did introduce me to the whole punk scene, and if i lost him as a friend i feel i would loose a big part of me and i dont ever want that
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Lin
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You know, instead of just telling him it's not cool, how about coming straight out and telling him you don't like it.

And tell him that if he wants to make such remarks, to not do them in front of you. If he is such a great friend, chances are he wll respect you and how you feel.


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OperationIVY
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well i had a huge talk with him yesterday about the whole white supremacist/neo nazi thing hes into, and he said hes been into it for about a year, and was afraid to tell me cause he thought i wouldnt talk to him anymore, that makes me feel bad for thinking it, i asked him how he would feel if i were black and he got into the white power and if he would still talk to me and he seemed sad , plus i asked him why hes into it so much and he just says stuff like this:
"jews were in concentration camps, and everyone points at the german nazis for doing it, but americans beat japs down and they beat us down in wars too, so why is everyone just against nazis"
"in school people wear crosses with their necklaces, as their beliefs in god, and i wonder why i would get disrespect if i had a swastika patch if thats my belief and i dont insult their beliefs"
"you have balls, you dont just put a middle finger up and walk away you ask questions and get answers and your so respectable to yourself and others"
i agreed with him on some of it, and i could put other comments but there too harsh, and i disagreed on many levels, and now i believe it as he can believe what he wants and i can believe what i want, he does that salute thing just to kid around with me , and he told me he would cool it and not talk about hatred around me unless i asked about it....so thats where it is now

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"those seconds reveal that the momentum that drives a subculture is more important than any particular band. The momentum is made of all the people who stay interested and keep their sense of urgency and hope" ~jesse (opivy)


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emsily0
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ok, honey, i know you want to keep your friend and you guys have agreed to keep your beliefs separate, but do you really think that will work? i mean, i hope it does, but...also, he said he was afraid to tell you about his "beliefs" - why is he believing in something he is ashamed of? and if you guys are such good friends, shouldn't he have known you would try to be accepting?

quote:
"in school people wear crosses with their necklaces, as their beliefs in god, and i wonder why i would get disrespect if i had a swastika patch if thats my belief and i dont insult their beliefs"

well, maybe it's because crosses stand for christianity, which preaches things like "love thy neighbor as you would love thyself" and "do as you would be done by." not to mention "thou shalt not kill."

on the contrary, a swastika stands for a group whose primary feature was hatred and violence. nazism was a form of fascism, which really had no particular political platform other than "action" - meaning, in many cases, violence. a swastika stands for a group whose salient historical feature is having killed 10 million people, including the biggest incidence of genocide of the 20th century. maybe that's why people have problems with a swastika. i'm sorry, but your friend's logic is very weak here.

quote:
"jews were in concentration camps, and everyone points at the german nazis for doing it, but americans beat japs down and they beat us down in wars too, so why is everyone just against nazis"

again, weak logic. "everyone is against nazis" because THEY PUT JEWS (and homosexuals, and basically everyone else who didn't fit their standards for the perfect race) in concentration and death camps. and because they killed 10 MILLION PEOPLE not to mention that the US put japanese immigrants in concentration camps here, which was also wrong.

i'm sorry to be so sensitive about this. i don't know if the stuff you are quoting is the stuff you could agree with or understand, but really, it's wrong. i am jewish. i am also german. german does not equal nazi. still, when i went to germany a few years ago, i was afraid to wear my chai necklace. can you understand how something like that feels? to feel uncomfortable because of your religion? something not even visible to the onlooker, but a cultural belief you couldn't change if you wanted to?

no, it seems to me like you have no idea at all what that's like. if you did, you would be taking his "beliefs" a little more seriously.

i just want you to understand that neonazism is not just a set of beliefs. it is HATRED. how can you respect someone who has hatred as a belief system?

em

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Tout est au mieux dans la meilleure des mondes possibles

Everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
-Voltaire


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OperationIVY
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uh how can i respect his hatred? well i dont know ive known him for 8 years id call him a pretty good friend, and that christian thing? yeah ok there not all love thy neighbor, a bunch of them are against gay people and black people and bs like that so dont contridict yourself.
plus, the us put the japs in camps too, so why arent we judged? and they put us in camps, so yeah whatever..and how can i respect him? hes my friend, i dont leave friends because they believe different than i do, i know it sounds like im taking his side but whatever, he does have some good points, and alot of bad, but i dont think im gonna give up on him just because he thinks differently and has reasons why he thinks that way and i dont, so no

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s13_sr20det
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dude.....its all on you. ask yourself "do i really want to hang out with a guy like this?
i know he's a long time friend but he's a load of trouble. if he continues down that path sooner or later he is gonna get into big trouble. he's gonna cross the wrong guy or do something horrible to another person. let me tell ya, you don't want to be involved in those things. i've been in a group where they've done wrong and i wondered if i should bail. leaving them was the smartest thing i've ever done.

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emsily0
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opivy? honey? please don't overreact like that. i'm not telling you to stop being friend with him. i know that a lifelong friendship is a tough thing to just forget about, and i'm sure it's more valuable to you than what is hopefully a phase he is going through.

that said, i have a couple of issues to take up with your post. first of all christians - in the true, uncorrupted sense of the word - should not be against gays or black people or ANYONE else. "love thy neighbor as you would love thyself" is one of the central tenets of the judeo-christian tradition, and anyone who breaks it is not truly a christian.

as for the US putting the japanese immigrants (please don't use the word "jap." it is derogatory and inappropriate here) in work camps: the first thing you need to understand is the difference between the US work camps, which were bad, and the german death camps which were incomparably worse. at the work camps, people were fed and adequately housed, but they were taken from their homes unjustly which was wrong. in the german death camps, people were not only unjustly taken from their homes, but they were KILLED. do you see a difference? because it's a completely different thing.

i just think maybe instead of passively accepting your friend's hatred, or abandoning him as a friend, you should try to talk to him. really, do some research about nazism and neonazism, and then talk to him about it. it sounds to me like you are both misinformed.

(by the way, i love op ivy)

em

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Tout est au mieux dans la meilleure des mondes possibles

Everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
-Voltaire


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alaska
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op.ivy, em has made some very very good points here and has said very well what I want to say, too. Let me add some words though.

What makes the Holocaust and the entire thing that happened in Germany between 1933 and 1945 so horrible is the scale of what happened.
Yes, atrocities have been (and are still) committed in other countries, too (don’t forget that what’s today the US wasn’t empty before Europeans got there, and trust me, people here in Europe still judge the US for that, and for a whole bunch of other things, too), but the way that several million people got killed in my country at the beginning of the last century was the first time in human history that genocide was extremely thoroughly planned and the first time bureaucracy was used to organize the complete removal of a large group of people.
In addition, this happened in the heart of Europe, in a formerly “civilized” country, not in some far off place, and millions of people stood silently by as their neighbors were deported.

Comparing the nazi death camps with the work camps that the US used for the Japanese (as wrong as that was), is a shabby deal, really. The camps which the Nazis had had two goals really: either killing people straight away, or killing them through very very hard work over a couple of months. What exactly happened there is hard to describe: people were completely robbed of their dignity before they were killed. They were treated worse than animals. There was torture worse than you can imagine. Have you or your friend ever seen footage that the US soldiers taped when they freed the concentration camps? I seriously doubt that. You should though, simply to see what it was like. There are piles of dead bodies, people so thin that one thinks they must have died long ago. Hundreds of people sharing very small, dirty shacks. Crematoria full with dead bodies (in the last days of the war, so many people would die from disease and starvation in the camps each day, that they didn’t manage to burn all the corpses). Shooting mechanisms hidden in medical examination rooms. I could go on. I have been to the remains of two concentration camps, and let me tell you, those things get a lot more real when you actually see them.

In regards to your friends statement that " wonder why i would get disrespect if i had a swastika patch if thats my belief and i dont insult their beliefs", I just want to say that IMHO, flirting with the hatred of nazism is an insult to other people in itself, simply because it’s a message of hatred, violence and injustice. Oh, and let me give you my opinion on you friends’s greeting yourself with the Hitler salute “just to kid you” and the swastika wearing thing: that’s is sick. How can anyone in their good mind play with the symbols of an immoral, unjust government that killed Jews, homosexuals, people with disabilities and lots of others just because they didn’t fit into their world picture? How can anyone do that?

The truth of what Nazi Germany was and how horrible the things that happened really were, is a hard and difficult one, it’s something I’m just starting to understand and something that is very difficult to deal with for me personally, simply because it’s the past of *my* country, because my grandparents were involved in this, bought into the propaganda and thought Adolf Hitler would safe this country. Information is the key, and it sounds to me like both you and your friend could use some decent information here.
I think you should really get yourself informed on the Holocaust and Nazi Germany. Your friend seems to be buying into some really dumb propaganda there, and you’ll need knowledge to put whatever he says into perspective. The Nizkor Project is a good start (even though the site isn’t terribly well designed), they crosslink from Holocaust denial websites and you get lots of arguments and info on your hands. Or simply check out your good old history book.

As to whether you want to remain friends with that person, let me be honest here: If I were you, I wouldn’t want to be around someone who sports that sort of opinion (how do you justify his opinion in the light of your own “punk” ones?) . But that’s just me. I can understand you want to stick with you friend, but your current stance of “excluding your beliefs” from your friendship simply won’t work IMHO. Plus if you exclude it, you run the risk to actually tolerate your friends hatred.

Sounds like it’s time for a reality check and a thorough info gathering session in the library.

[This message has been edited by Alaska (edited 04-03-2001).]


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OperationIVY
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uh dont tell me what happened in the holocaust i know what happened, im not saying that killing so many people is right but the usa killed many japs, just as much as they killed some of us, and there not getting the right justice, i know the nazis killed way more people and it is wrong, and i know hes only doing it because of the punk subculture and his friends convincing that being a skinhead is so "hardcore" its probably a phase, and weve had plenty of fights over the years,and we both agreed it sucks not hanging out with eachother, and he wasnt confident in telling me because what, if i became a christian i feel he would call me a poser or something, so theres nothing wrong with not telling me for so long, he just didnt know how i would react to hearing it cause we argue over little things like a band alot and dont talk to eachother lol so i can see that, and im scared for him , cause i know if he keeps this up HE WILL run into the wrong guys, and i had a dreamed he got killed because of being into it, im scared for him alot, but i dont know what to do, im not gonna stop being his friend, but as time passes if he keeps talking about this stuff and keeps using racist terms, etc, than i wont hang out with him for the day until he learns, im so scared for him though, he told me he was at the supermarket and outside wearing a swastika patch etc, and a car fulled with different races lets say got out of their car and chased him and probably gonna beat him down, but than his older friends were there and scared them off with shotguns.....that scares me, my friend couldve gotten beat up maybe even killed, it scares me what to do now, im scared for him every day, he wears that patch at school and writes them on his hands, and im just...ahh
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Confused boy
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I believe the reason that Germany and Japan had their governments charged with war crimes was that the Allies won. History is written by the winners. Really I suppose the biggest ever SINGLE (if you divide the holocaust up into many years and places) act of genocide was probably the dropping of nuclear bomb on hiroshoma (and one other city that has slipped my mind). That didnt really make sense as it was attacking the civilian population rather than the military. But you would never see the victors of a conflict being charged with war crimes. I suppose it is partly that the Nazis killed people that were of no threat to them while Japan as a nation posed a threat to the USA.

As for your friend caught in this Neo-Nazi phase. It seems to me likes its more of an image. He does not REALLY want to kill all non-whites does he?? Contrary to my usual liberal views, perhaps getting into a couple of fights might teach him a lesson. Try talking him out of it before it comes to that.


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alaska
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(off topic:
Confused, the other city was Nagasaki.)

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emsily0
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confused boy, i think you make a good point: the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki could be construed as genocide. howevever, you can't "divide" the holocaust up into different incidences because they were indisputably all part of the same phenomenon. the directors at auschwitz and bergen-belsen and other camps were not acting independantly of each other. they were all under the ultimate direction of hitler, see? so it's all part of the same act.

also, i'm not sure bombing hiroshima and nagasaki was exactly genocide. first of all, although bombing may not have made much strategic sense in retrospect, the US was at war with the nation of japan, as you say. the jews hitler killed were unlike the japanese citizens in that they did not all speak the same language, they did not have any kind of cohesion, and they only similarity was their religion (not even their ethnic extraction was similar, as ashkenazic and sephardic jews have different extraction) - basically, the holocaust is distinguished as a genocide because its ONLY purpose was "ethnic cleansing" - to wipe out an ethnic group.

the random house dictionary defines genocide as "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national or racial group." clearly, the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki was neither deliberate nor systematic, but random. in contrast, the carefully planned death camp system certainly was systematic extermination.

do you see what i'm saying? it's not really an important point, but i think the distinction needs to be made.

as another point, of course victors aren't charged with war crimes - it's patently wrong that they are not, but such is the way the world works. if the nazis had won, no one would have had the power to charge them with war crimes. but don't say that the "only reason" they were charged is because they lost - yes, the fact that they lost made it possible for them to be charged, but that would not have happened had they not committed such atrocities.

em

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Tout est au mieux dans la meilleure des mondes possibles

Everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
-Voltaire


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OperationIVY
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screw this, im staying on my friends side, the hell with what you guys think about it anymore, im sick of this, freedom of choice, freedom of speech, eat me

disclaimer:
yeah im rude but ive been sick all day i have reasons
--
Note From Miz S.:
Reasons or not, the new policy stated at the top of every board topic right now applies and has been applied to your user privledges:

quote:
Do not come here and post when you know you are in a bad mood and cannot control yourself. Do not post statements or topics which attack any one person or group of people, and which you have a pretty good idea will upset or harass our staff, volunteers or any of our users. Do not make posts which you know full well either break guidelines or are rude or abusive in their intent.

From this point on (and the user guidelines will be changed to reflect as much), we will be giving NO more warnings to posters who harass here, or who break the guideline protocol. I will be simply suspending users rights who do.



[This message has been edited by Miz Scarlet (edited 04-04-2001).]


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OperationlVY
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oh guess who did it again? if im in a bad mood than too bad, i shouldve listened to my friend, because of you guys and your ideas i should use were in a fight, thanks for nothing
yeah ill blame it, if it wasnt for this board and its pathetic fascist ideas he would be talking to me, thats it bann me while i say **** OFF!
hopefully he will learn that im not afraid of his beliefs, im glad i have a nazi friend, at least he has different views and isnt afraid to say them or speak out for his beliefs, bye, bann me im not coming back to this fascist board, piss off

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Heather
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Ivy,
If you post here agin, I will report it to your IP server, which may halt your use for harassment.

You agreed to the rules when you registered as a contingency of being able to post here. You broke them, and thus may no longer post. If you think that's facism honey, you don't only need to get a clue, you need to get a dictionary.

Post again, and you get reported to your IP, which is likely your parents account. You can explain to them why their service got halted and how it relates to facism. I'm sure they'll appreciate it.

------------------
Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

"If you're a bird, be an early early bird --
But if you're a worm, sleep late." - Shel Silverstein


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