Donate Now
We've Moved! Check out our new boards.

Topic Closed  Topic Closed
  New Poll  
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Relationships » uurgh

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: uurgh
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know that I have much of a point, just that I've been going slightly more nutso lately than usual.

I'm having all these thoughts like:
the best moment of my life was with someone whose last name I didn't know at the time.
my mom got married to my dad at 27 basically b/c no one better had come along and she figured it would stay that way; now they have an awful lot of contempt for each other (and while this is sad, was her reasoning really so far off?)
it seems to be easier for the really pretty and cute girls to be social and nice, no matter how "alternative" they are culturally.
the only people clearly interested in me have always been people I was not interested in back (and on the flip side, the people I've been most interested in were never attracted to me).
I still don't care enough about school, and I still feel like the gap between where I am now and being happy has everything to do with a romantic life.
Why am I different? (I mostly stopped asking myself this in high school, but it still seems pertinent)
How do I know what guys are thinking, like, ever? What if my mom and aunt and cousin and dad are right about all the depressing things they say?
Will I ever be able to be assertive sexually w/o anxiety? (B/c at the core, being passive doesn't cause me anxiety)

Okay, now I'll stop because I'm just repeating myself. It's like, when everything else is hunky dory I just don't think too much about this stuff, but when I'm stressed out about anything such as school this whole feeling undesirable thing really eats at me. Also, I just saw a bunch of pictures of that guy I hooked up with earlier this year and I thought he looked /gorgeous/ and if he knew I was still thinking about that he'd probably totally think I was a creepy stalker...

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
-Lauren-
Activist
Member # 25983

Icon 1 posted      Profile for -Lauren-     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You just stated in a previous post that physical attractiveness is your main interest and that getting to know folks on a "superficial level" can increase your chances of a relationship.

It seems to be easier for the really pretty and cute girls to be social and nice, no matter how "alternative" they are culturally.

And yet, is this not an example of you feeling that YOU are being judged superficially, unfairly? Just something to think about.

Posts: 4636 | From: USA/Northern Europe | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know, obessing over a one-night stand many months later is...well, obsessing over a one-night stand many months later.

It's over. It's done. (And it's got to be amlost embarassing at this point to be hanging on to it this way.) You put a lot of status on the experience and tend to put a lot of value in the idea that someone you've elevated in your mind would deign to find you interesting for all of one whole evening, so it's no small wonder you've got it in your head as one of the best night of your life. (And I KNOW you've got a better "best night of your life" in you than one night of groupie sex. Come on.)

Social status also has so much to do with your sexual/romantic ethos from your post history here that again, no small wonder that experience is was so penultimate to you.

Okay? See where I'm going here?

Gal, you have got to make some big adjustments to your headspace and to the way you think about all this stuff and yourself if you want a change. This has been a given pretty much since you started posting here and remains a given.

Aren't you sick of how the way you think about some of these things has you stuck in an endless loop yet? Ready to accept that this isn't about how crappy the world is-- or how substandard you are -- and what it doesn't give you, but the way you think about it and set yourself up with it?

You're smart, that's obvious at this point, yet even in just this one post above, there are so many clear connections with this stuff you just don't seem to want to put together that I gotta be frank -- it's just hard to know what to say to you at this point.

You seem so invested in holding on to the way you view certain things, despite the fact that they clearly don't make real sense and don't work out for you. If we talk about this stuff with you, it generally results in little more than your defending the very stuff that's obviously holding you back, or you're holding yourself back with.

So, what can we really do for you here? Really?

[ 02-22-2007, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Heather ]

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, embarassing or no, it /was/ the best moment of my life. And I've got very little sense of shame ever, anyway. If I did, I probably would have killed myself a long time ago. And I just say it was the best because it /felt/ the best at the time and thinking about it still makes me happy when I'm feeling down (although part of that is just the sheer humorous/entertainment value). Plus it's still one of my better stories. Maybe I wish I wasn't so obsessive about certain things in general. But like, a couple of family members are OCD so maybe it's a little genetic -I haven't a clue.

When I'm attracted to someone I /try/ to get to know them. At any given point there are a few people I'm attracted to. But seriously they're never the ones who are into me. /Never/ On the other hand, I do get hit on from time to time and they're typically not people who are attractive to me. I don't see how this has much to do with headspace, because I'm just talking acting on/talking about gut feelings.

I just suggested for that one guy to get to know a lot of people b/c he was indicating that he just wanted a relationship. And it's true, meeting a lot of people increases your chances of finding someone who's attracted to you. I've got a guy friend who's pretty attractive and smart and is good at picking people up in various situations -I get the impression he's a respectful boyfriend but he's not necessarily very picky. If this guy posting on Scarleteen was real picky about who he had a relationship with or he wanted to get to know someone really well beforehand, obviously that could be a different situation.


Okay now I need to go to class

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay maybe my lack of ability to just be happy most of the time and not care about having a romantic life, or my lack of ability to be attracted to someone who physically doesn't make me go "wow!" is genetic or psychological or whatever. I still don't know what to do about it. Even if I am a little obsessive and occasionally stalkerish I've known other girls (and guys) who are also, especially with this internet stuff we've got now. So I don't really think that's my biggest problem.

I just feel like I've spent 6 years or so of being not-ugly and reasonably friendly and having gazillions of crushes and trying to get to know people and it goes nowhere. I know awhile ago some kid on these boards mentioned the concept of "leagues" and no one shot them down. So maybe my problem is that I always crush on people out of my league. I know it's not a nice concept, but that doesn't mean there's not an element of truth to it.

I don't really see the problem with still thinking about a one-night stand months later -I mean, isn't that right in line with like a gazillion movies and stories and a lot of our culture's idea of romance? It's not like I can't control my actions and /act/ cool and rational about stuff so that I'm not troubling other people -I do that all the time. I /do/ wish it wasn't the best moment of my life because I wish I had a lot more ones that good or better. I also feel, however, that judging by the trajectory of like every adult woman in my family it's perfectly possible that I won't ever have much in the way of romantic highlights in my life.

My little sister is almost 15 and she always has boys after her and always has boyfriends and everything, and it just boggles my mind b/c I don't know what the big difference is -but maybe she's attracted to a wider variety of people, or something. I just basically have /no idea/ what it's like to be someone who dates every couple of months, and dates anyone at all before they're like 18 -they might as well be another species I have so little idea what any of that would feel like.

[ 02-22-2007, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: iheartdc ]

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Desperation is the world's worst cologne.

(In fact, I always kid people that if I ever got to be a big celebirty who did the silly "have my own perfume" thing, I'd call it "Emotionally Unavailable," since so many people seem to be drawn to that.)

Point is, it's been really clear through your whole history here that you put a LOT of stock, per your own esteem, in being found to be sexually attractive. Mind, a lot of people get stuck in that, and some level of worth in that is okay. But from what I see, you put way more in it than is actually healthy, and to boot, other people pick up on that. Someone who needs an ego boost might be drawn to that energy: after all, you're making clear that their crumbs are vital to your worth. But well-adjusted people, people with a real eye towardsw mutually beneficial partnership of any kind, tend to steer clear of that energy.

Flatly, I do think it's a bum deal that the best moment of your life so far was groupie sex, not because of what that encounter was, but because there's so much more to us than being found attractive and basking in that, and for someone as smart as you are, I'd hope that some other kind of real personal achievement would wear that crown. Not something as arbitrary, random and really, not about you at all, as a touring musician having a night of sex with a fan when it's pretty clear it wasn't half as interesting or memorable for him, or the guy would have asked for your number and called you up again at least once.

And personally, I do think being stuck on that evening isn't healthy. Movies are movies, and Harlequin Romances are Harlequin romances. They're dippy, surface fantasties: they're not supposed to be models for life. Our culture's most common denominator ideals of love and romance are really messed up: I don't see the value in trying to emulate them or hold them up.

Per the "out of your league," stuff, who the heck knows. But if you want to go by that school, and you put all or most of the energy in your life into being found attractive, then sure: you're going to be out of a lot of people's "league" who have more to show for themselves because they invest a lot less energy in something so essentially empty, arbitrary and ultimately meaningless, especially when you're talking about nothing on your side or theirs than chemistry or physical appeal. Yawn.

You've said here time and time again that you don't really want to invest time and energy in getting to know the people who want to get to know you in a real way. If that's so, then your romantic mileage is certainly limited, and to boot, I get the impression that you'd be one of the folks drawn to the guy wearing "Emotionally Unavailable."

Again: there are changes you need to start making if you want change in your life to happen. Otherwise, you stay stuck in this rut (and seem to keep us stuck right there with you: I feel like broken record at this point).

[ 02-22-2007, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What do you consider "desperation?"

I mean usually if I like someone I know in a platonic context like through work or school or something I just try to be friendly (and maybe flirt a lot, but that comes naturally; I try to tone it down sometimes). Or I'll like maybe ask people if they want to come do things with me, and maybe make a fair amount of eye contact.

One thing I'm confused about: if someone likes you, they're not going to dislike you for paying them some attention, right? I mean, I don't /think/ I dislike people simply for paying me attention.

My sister who seems to good with guys never wants to call me back and can act kind of conceited, but I hope that's not the kind of "Emotionally Unavailable" you mean.

And yeah, if there's some guy who I don't find attractive within the first couple days of knowing him, my experience is that I'm never going to find him attractive -so there's no point in giving it a shot. I did that once, got myself entangled with someone who seemed nice and interesting but not physically attractive, and the whole experience just wound up making me nautious. So I've been afraid to try that again.

(I also can't help but wonder if this is like what my mom went through when she was younger and why she didn't date, or if for her it was just purely the being raised Catholic and not wanting to have sex with too many people thing.)

Maybe I need a coach: like someone to teach me how to be cool and flirty and everything. My cousin keeps trying: trouble is I really disagree with his view of relationships too. I guess I just wish things were easy. I really don't like a challenge -I don't care a great deal for people who play hard to get and I don't have much desire to play hard-to-get. And anyway, the times I've thought I was doing that, that didn't work either.

And personal accomplishments? Bah. I'm so scatter-brained. I was like in 6th grade the last time I finished anything particularly impressive -I volunteer and am constantly trying to be creative and productive. Sometimes I impress other people, but I haven't found anything that I consistently enjoy doing or that gives me a sense of accomplishment. For the most part we're all just cogs in a wheel, anyway -the social/romantic stuff is what's really novel to me... I can't get enough of it, and I have little to no understanding of it either

I sympathize with the record bit. I've probably been on the same record since boys and girls started getting crushes and holding hands in school

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can also kind of understand why I might not be too attractive -I mean, I personally think I'm okay looking, and relatively nice, and relatively smart -but nothing special. I don't like to act too feminine and that scares off 3/4ths of the male population right there. I have never acted very giving emotionally or sexually in the context of being with someone. I'm not too comfortable with giving. I'm a bit of a taker maybe I think. And then sometimes at random moments I get anxious and my communication skills are mediocre. A lot of that is in the context of an actual relationship though -so I guess I still don't really understand why the people who turn me on generally don't seem interested in getting to know me (or getting to "know" me).

**** this man -I haven't made a genuine attempt to hookup with anyone in a long while. Maybe that's what I need to distract myself -actually go to a sleazy weekend party and not be so god-darned choosy. I think it really screwed me up having this one guy who I found so attractive (and we had entertaining dialogue. and he was nice/polite. And I don't know why he /would/ have found it overall positive and memorable when I ultimately acted relatively crazy and unfriendly. That's not the point.). Whether he actually found me attractive or not I think I'm going to get old and die without ever managing to have an ongoing relationship with someone I find that attractive. I am awesome. Okay I'll try to focus on work now.

[ 02-22-2007, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: iheartdc ]

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecofem
Activist
Member # 13388

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ecofem     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been wanting to reply to you here, iheartdc, but I'm having trouble figuring how to start...

OK, I agree that finding someone physically attractive can be very important. However, it's not just about having a mixture of "pleasing" physical features but your charisma, your attitude, your body language and your tone. (That certain "eau-de-Cologne" Heather mentioned. [Wink] ) The whole personality package, in other words.

You should stop worrying about being pretty or not (I'm sure you look good), and focus on your whole self. "Sexy" is self-confidence, sexy is having things (like hobbies and interests) you're passionate about, sexy is realizing all the good things about yourself (and having it show in how you go about life.) To be blunt, you're not sending off that kind of message in your posts here; that is what is "scaring" (to use your own word) people away. It is not a lack of flirting technique or the whole "not being feminine" bit. And until you make that connection, I think you're going to keep coming back to this same situation.

However, you do have all the potential to get what you want in this regard. Start doing things for you versus what you imagine are society's perceptions (or comparing yourself to your sister, for one.) Start counting and having new accomplishments that make you happy and proud. Do stuff for you, find your niche and glow with resulting self-confidence, and I promise you the guys will come.

[ 02-22-2007, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Ecofem ]

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I appreciate your response.

Thing is, I fairly regularly get the comment that I seem "self-assured" or "confident" or whatever. So even if I do have confidence issues that screw me up in the context of an actual relationship, I don't think that turns people off to begin with. (I mean, if a level of confidence is such a defining characterisitc of the way I present myself to others that people regularly comment on it, is this possibly even an indication I could be perceived as the extreme, as a little arrogant?) I may have some obvious, more complicated personality flaws, I'm just at a bit of a loss for perceiving them in myself or knowing how to work on something like that. I also have hobbies, plenty of 'em, that I do with enthusiasm (I dance, I organize activism, I read, I like art) -I just don't get a feeling of "fullfillment" from that alone. At least, the feeling I get from that doesn't compare with the satisfaction I feel for moments with romance, in any form.

But seriously, the guys I tend to crush on, even if I don't automatically feel that they're all whoa out there and possibly out of my reach, I almost always later find out that every other girl who knows them thinks they're quite attractive (looks and personality-wise). I don't know whether this is typical, but it is what is making me feel like maybe I'm too choosy. I mean, there's this one girl who is a part of one of my national activist organizations, and like every straight male friend I have at the conferences from around the country flirts with her and tries to chat her up, and talks when she's not around about how pretty she is. I may not be bad as a package, but I'm not that girl.

[ 02-23-2007, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: iheartdc ]

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecofem
Activist
Member # 13388

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ecofem     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey, I'll first start with your second paragraph.

quote:
Originally posted by iheartdc:
But seriously, the guys I tend to crush on, even if I don't automatically feel that they're all whoa out there and possibly out of my reach, I almost always later find out that every other girl who knows them thinks they're quite attractive (looks and personality-wise). I don't know whether this is typical, but it is what is making me feel like maybe I'm too choosy. I mean, there's this one girl who is a part of one of my national activist organizations, and like every straight male friend I have at the conferences from around the country flirts with her and tries to chat her up, and talks when she's not around about how pretty she is. I may not be bad as a package, but I'm not that girl.

I have two takes on this: First, it goes back to trying NOT to compare yourself to other people. Everyone has their own style and is special in their own way; trying to figure what makes them however they are, and how you aren't that-- it just makes you feel more lost and disappointed with yourself. No one else's life is as good as your own (as in making it one you really like having). It seems you have a life you want (being in DC, being active, etc.); now try to focus on how cool that is versus what you think is missing (sex, relationship, etc.)

As for these organizations and guys and stuff: I do see where you're coming from on this. I'm sure they're fine, but the problem is not you or what you might be doing "wrong." Granted, taking part in political organizations or social clubs is just as much about the socializing and fun interpersonal dynamics as it is the cause. However, sharing an interest doesn't mean you're all similar or even that you like each other.

These guys are pretty moronic and just not nice if they're "talks when she's not around about how pretty she is" in front of you and others; it's one thing to like someone, but this is just rude and immature. I'm sure your friend is a fine person, and I'm not saying this as a criticism to her, but I'd guess that she has a way to make these guys feel really special (that their viewpoints are so important, etc.) That's fine, but I'm not going to go around strokin' people's egos to make them like me.

These guys are probably insecure with themselves that they prefer the feel-good attention. If these are the 3/4 of guys you're talking about, then you probably don't want them anyway. You'd want someone who genuinely is interested in your opinion and be impressed by your independence and stuff. Something to add is that liberal or left guys can be just as big jerks as anyone else (just look at how Karl Marx treated women, for example!)

I say still involved in such organizations, but do it for your own interest versus expecting to find guys there. I mean, great if it works out, but it doesn't seem to be the most happy, welcoming place. (Back to it not being you but "them".) I'd try out other groups where the people are nicer. Last year I was in a capoeira group whose members constantly frustrated me; granted, I made a great friend or two, but I had no idea why they were so unfriendly and uninterested in me (as in even just saying "hello" or waving when I arrived, which some finally did after my training there many times a week for three months.

Thinking back, it's like "d'uh!": People who do it are often more kinetic versus socially-inclined; plus, it's such an ego boost and self-focused (oh, my muscles are so big! I can do so many flips!) They were totally fine people, I just was expecting the wrong things from them. Contrastingly, I was in an improv group where the people where so welcoming and friendly from the start, and we had so much fun playing around.

With that in mind, I'd branch out activities: Do stuff for you, but also look for groups with people whom you click with. I think bonding with fellow nice people will make these groups more fulfilling to you. OK, I'll write more later, addressing your first paragraph.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
September
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 25425

Icon 1 posted      Profile for September     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
DC - I read a Chinese proverb the other day that seems really spot on for you: "If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are going."

You have mentioned several times that you do not want to end up like your mother, and yet sentences like 'if there's some guy who I don't find attractive within the first couple days of knowing him, my experience is that I'm never going to find him attractive -so there's no point n giving it a shot' make it sound like you're not really dedicated to making more than superficial connections with people.

On one hand, you are complaining that no one you are interested in finds you physically attractive and that you will therefore never have that romance you crave, yet on the other hand you are dismissing people based on their physical appearance before even getting to know them as a person. See the contradiction there? Of course physical attraction is a big part of it, but it's not all there is to it, and it is very often something that grows with time and with appreciation for someone as a person.

Maybe a first step would be to try and start making an effort to get to know people for who they are, regardless of the way they look.

--------------------
Johanna
Scarleteen Volunteer

"The question is not who will let me, but who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand

Posts: 9192 | From: Cologne, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"I'm sure your friend is a fine person, and I'm not saying this as a criticism to her, but I'd guess that she has a way to make these guys feel really special (that their viewpoints are so important, etc.) "

She's a nice person, which is of course important, but she doesn't suck up to the guys that I can see. No, they mostly like her for her looks. I've heard a couple of girls comment on her being "very pretty" also, although personally, her looks aren't really the kind I go for. I tend not to like people who look particularly young or "cute".

"I say still involved in such organizations, but do it for your own interest versus expecting to find guys there. I mean"

I get involved for my own interest, most definitely. But I also tend to get crushes on people everywhere I go -I call it a healthy libido.

"On one hand, you are complaining that no one you are interested in finds you physically attractive and that you will therefore never have that romance you crave, yet on the other hand you are dismissing people based on their physical appearance before even getting to know them as a person. See the contradiction there?"

No, I don't see a contradiction. Because, I don't think it's wrong for some people to not be attracted to me based on physical appearance. I think attraction based on physical appearance is not something many people, including me, have much control over. The visual is a huge element of attraction and sexual experience for me -I just don't feel like being sexual with someone unless looking at them makes me feel sexual. For me, this mostly just means being able to see some muscle tone and being almost my height or taller, but the presence of certain other characteristics can boost or reduce the attraction as well.

I have people I know (i.e. platonic friends) who I am not physically attracted to, sure.

I have a bit more to add, expanding this beyond simply arguing about things I've already said, but I need to work now, so maybe I'll come back later.

[ 02-23-2007, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: iheartdc ]

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecofem
Activist
Member # 13388

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ecofem     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by iheartdc:
Thing is, I fairly regularly get the comment that I seem "self-assured" or "confident" or whatever. So even if I do have confidence issues that screw me up in the context of an actual relationship, I don't think that turns people off to begin with. (I mean, if a level of confidence is such a defining characterisitc of the way I present myself to others that people regularly comment on it, is this possibly even an indication I could be perceived as the extreme, as a little arrogant?)

Well, since I can't "observe" you in person, I can't really tell you how you're coming across. Confidence is good, but it being misinterpreted as "arrogant" can mistakingly turn people away. Instead of asking for flirting advice from your cousin, why not ask a close friend for honest feedback on how you're coming across in general?

quote:
I may have some obvious, more complicated personality flaws, I'm just at a bit of a loss for perceiving them in myself or knowing how to work on something like that.
I don't see this really as being a problem as such because we all have our strengths and weaknesses-- what are you referring to specificially here?

quote:
I also have hobbies, plenty of 'em, that I do with enthusiasm (I dance, I organize activism, I read, I like art) -I just don't get a feeling of "fullfillment" from that alone. At least, the feeling I get from that doesn't compare with the satisfaction I feel for moments with romance, in any form.
You're doing quite a smorgsbord of stuff, that's good, even if it's not fulfilling as you'd wish.

But now to quote my mom: "All these things emphasize FUNfunFUN, but the truth is that life isn't fun all of the time or even most of the time. Things like errands or work are often even really NOT fun; however, they're important life skills and stuff needs to get done. And it makes those good moments even better." Maybe stop seeking fulfillment as such, and just focus on doing your thing day-to-day; the fulfillment will come. Are you familiar with the sociological (and more) concept of Satisficing? Basically, you can't have everything, but you'll be happiest if you can find a happy medium with the options you do have.

Partnered sexual activity probably tops many people's "unofficial favorites list"; romantic relationships can also be pretty nice. However, they aren't so great all the time, especially if the longing for them is causing you more grief than the reality (and it is in your case.) Try to focus more on things you can do alone versus requiring another person, because you can somewhat control what happens in your life, but not someone else's. (Like I can work towards getting a college degree on my own, but I can't really have "marriage" or a relationship as a definite goal, because it's always 50% of my hands. Not the best example, but it sort of illustrates my point.)

quote:
But seriously, the guys I tend to crush on, even if I don't automatically feel that they're all whoa out there and possibly out of my reach, I almost always later find out that every other girl who knows them thinks they're quite attractive (looks and personality-wise). I don't know whether this is typical, but it is what is making me feel like maybe I'm too choosy.
I dunno, I'm not saying I'm going to go after everyone or that they'd be interested in me, but I don't think anyone's "out of my reach." That whole concept is such bs, just try to stop stratifying your crushes, girl! It's ok to be attracted to someone a lot of other people are... but why are you even surveying others? I mean, this isn't middle school and how attractive others think of your crush isn't important!

I think we can want a sexual or romantic connection, but also be totally not ready for it at a certain time. Right now you're trying to figure out who you are and it's quite frustrating; that's pretty much a sign for not being ready for one right now. I've been there, too; I was so busy sorting through my own stuff, I just wasn't ready for someone else. (It's not a permanent thing though: right now, when I am ready and open, I am in a relationship; before would not have been the right time, and it didn't work when I tried.)

I would recommend you just focus on living, studying, doing whatever, but NOT on a personal philosophical self/relationship/gender/etc. analysis. Life experience gives you that. IN classroom learning and discussions at college are also a good time; focus on theory and concepts, and it'll eventually fit together. It's sort of like how I totally was freaking out, wanting to know "what am I! what is my sexual orientation, I want to figure it all out right this second!" a few years ago. A little pondering can be fun, but painful-almost-obsessing doesn't really get you anywhere but down.

How did you feel about all this stuff back when you were growing up, living with your parents and in high school?

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"How did you feel about all this stuff back when you were growing up, living with your parents and in high school?"

Umm... well you mean with sexuality and relationships in general? I guess there's like a thousand things I could say.

I think I was in grade school when I decided everyone was to some degree attracted to members of both genders -I didn't know any bisexual or homosexual people at the time, it just made sense to me. I always wore "boy clothes" and had a "boy haircut" until 6th or 7th grade. Growing up I was like /the/ kid who got teased by everyone and had few and sometimes no friends, because I was so awkward. So it took me awhile to come out of that shell. I started getting really strong sexual crushes like in junior high, generally on guys. In jr. high it was /definitely/ on people out of my league -because at my jr high I was still basically unpopular and I tended to get crushes on guys who were popular, either in mainstream or alternative crowds. I went on my first date in 10th grade, but I wasn't that into him. I continued to have crushes though -I can count so many of my female friends who wound up dating my crushes, after I introduced the two. I was always pretty frustrated, and my mom would always say things like "if you don't date until you get to college, it probably means you're doing something /right/." I eventually decided that I think she has a really dysfunctional attitude about all these things, but oh well. I had friends who dated and were sexually active and everything, but I was always out of that loop like whoa. The only time I kissed anyone in high school was in a play. I think I finally learned to flirt my sophomore or junior year of HS, but it never really got me anywhere. And I wasn't living at home in HS, I was going to this public boarding-shool place.

I had an ongoing but largely awkward and dysfunctional relationship my freshman year of college. (the new sensations were so fun that it took me awhile to realize it was a bad idea to try having a relationship with an intriguing guy I just did not find physically/visually attractive) I had a few random hookups that varied from "pretty fun" to "whoa!", but you know, nothing really substantive.

The other thing I was thinking about earlier is how interesting it is that different people give me totally different suggestions about how to date more, depending on what relationship we have and what they know about my life.
My younger sisters have said occasionally they think I'm really awkward, and have sometimes said they think the guys I have crushes on are too good-looking for me when I've shown them pictures.
My adult male cousin has suggested I need to act more feminine, play hard-to-get, and not sound angry when I talk about certain political issues. He also has told me that I'm "pretty" but if I "ask out the hottest guy in the bar, expect to get shot down."
My dad has suggested that I intimidate guys. (although he's not the most articulate human being, so I'm still not sure I understand precisely what he thought he meant by that).
My mom has suggested I'm too serious. Or unfriendly. (Of course at various points in time she's thrown every insult at me under the sun, so I feel it's always a little hard to know what she really thinks)
My best guy friend has told me that I'm "witty, and friendly, and cute" and he would expect me to have a romantic life within the average range. (he has suggested a major lack of chest might mean I have to work harder than other girls to get attention, though; he's a major breast-man).
A random guy thought I was "too open" about my life.
A random guy and a random girl have suggested that when I was around them I sometimes "talked too much/too frankly about sex, and that could scare some guys off"
I know some people think I'm good-looking, it's just that as far as I know no one I've had a serious crush on has ever been attracted to me that way (except for this one girl, but by the time she told me I'd moved. And we never talked)
And then I /know/ I've sometimes scared guys off by coming on too strong, but if I don't go after them they never make efforts to get to know me either so I just don't know what to do!

I made that list of things people have said not because I automatically take everything to heart, but rather, to illustrate the fact that I am so, so confused.

[ 02-23-2007, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: iheartdc ]

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"why are you even surveying others?"

And about this. Yeah, I'm not surveying others. It's just that sometimes it comes up, you know...

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecofem
Activist
Member # 13388

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ecofem     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi iheartdc, I'm just about to go to bed and will write more tomorrow, but here are a few points that really stick out to me.

It appears that you've had a lot of people put an emphasis on being pretty or good-looking (that it's the most important thing) while telling you that you aren't pretty or good-looking enough. It's to the point where it's not about whether you're pretty "enough" or not, but that internalized: "I am not pretty" -> "I am not good enough for _____." That's a lot of negativity that you've, unfortunately, had to deal with so long. It could explain certain mental roadblocks when otherwise you've really got your **** together and are confident.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well and again, it's like I'll agree that once I'm in a relationship that could be a problem-causing factor. But I don't see how anything like that just being in my head would affect other people being attracted to me to begin with. We do have a culture that puts an awful lot of emphasis on a few very sort of streamlined "desirable" looks, and whether or not we like it I don't think any of us do very much to change it on our own.

And like September pointed out, a lot of my attraction to others centers on their physical characteristics, so it's totally normal to me that that happens a lot. I'm also totally up for trying out this idea that maybe my looks don't typically have too much to do with crushes not liking me back, that it's sometimes personality/social factors and sometimes just random factors.

And I don't think I have my proverbial **** together -not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm dynamic, but I told you I'm scatterbrained -think minor ADD mixed with minor OCD, with some good old-fashioned artsy-eccentricity on top. I just don't think I exhibit a particular lack of confidence ever, except in very intimate situations. And you're absolutely right, without observing me in-person you really couldn't know what a barrier to me attracting the people I'm attracted to might be.

And maybe I'll figure it out eventually -I hope I do! I just feel like it's equally probable that finding someone for a relationship will eventually mean settling for someone who I am not /so/ attracted to as I am to most of my major crushes. And it's equally probable a few years from now the best moment of my life will /still/ be with some dude whose last name I didn't know (a really funny last name, at that) (maybe it will even be with some different guy whose last name I don't know, because I can totally see myself being a repeat offender [Wink] I'd rather have fleeting experiences like that than none at all).

[ 02-23-2007, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: iheartdc ]

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecofem
Activist
Member # 13388

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ecofem     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
And I don't think I have my proverbial **** together -not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm dynamic, but I told you I'm scatterbrained -think minor ADD mixed with minor OCD, with some good old-fashioned artsy-eccentricity on top. I just don't think a lack of confidence is any barrier to me meeting people. And you're absolutely right, without observing me in-person you really couldn't know what a barrier to me attracting the people I'm attracted to might be.
Again, I don't see how those characteristics are necessarily something negative.

Honestly, I just don't think you're going to get the right feedback from us here. As you mention yourself, I can't really figure out what's the problem when I'm not interacting with you in person. It's like, you're trying, we're trying, but it's just not jibing in a way truly helpful to you. I suggest you look for in person advice, such as from a counselor or therapist. (I don't mean this in a bad way or as an attempt to stop the conversation; I just just really feel it's the case.)

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh yeah. But see, counselor's don't observe me interacting with other people either, so they can't tell me if there's a problem I'm not perceiving either. And then I've occasionally asked friends and gotten sometimes ambiguous and sometimes positive responses (with one, the look issue came up a little) -but you know, that sort of thing is really hard to ask friends, and it's probably even harder for friends to answer. I know myself personally have sometimes had to walk a fine line between my truthful opinon and not wanting to hurt my friend's feelings when someone asked me about a part of their life about which they were insecure. And I think (or at least I hope) that friends are friends in part /because/ they like you, anyway, so they're biased. And I don't currently have a friend I would prefer to date (I think the last time I did, was like 8th grade).

Basically, I just think I'm screwed. And I guess I'm going through that period of my emotional cycle where I obsess more about it. But at least it's the weekend; after I finish a paper I'm gonna try to go party!

(And I'm not sure if this is what you mean before, but I do sort of feel that anyone who has never heard of or does not take the "I am not good looking enough for _____" thing at all seriously probably either is exceptionally good-looking themselves, or else is from a different culture/planet. Sorry for the downer, just sometimes I feel like these Scarleteen folks don't exist in the real world. I'm all about cultural change, but I can't live in denial of the current state of things permeating around me. And I think I'm /fine/ looking, but I'm not trying to date myself, either.)

Really, I learned a lot from Scarleteen, but at this point I know I'm in the wrong place for all this, anyway. I'm older than most of the users, and most of the users are asking questions because they're actually sexually active. I kind of wish someone would start a website for the "over 19 and sexually inept/frustrated" crowd.

[ 02-23-2007, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: iheartdc ]

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
September
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 25425

Icon 1 posted      Profile for September     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just as a note, I don't think that you should dismiss counseling before you've really given it a shot. I know it's a bit difficult to see how just talking to some random person who doesn't know you will help in any way, but believe me, it does. So why not haven an open mind about it and give it a real try? You don't lose anything by giving it a try and if nothing else, it might leave you with some new ideas for figuring out where you're going.

--------------------
Johanna
Scarleteen Volunteer

"The question is not who will let me, but who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand

Posts: 9192 | From: Cologne, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecofem
Activist
Member # 13388

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ecofem     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by iheartdc:
Oh yeah. But see, counselor's don't observe me interacting with other people either, so they can't tell me if there's a problem I'm not perceiving either.

Well, yes and no. There are counselors who do observe people in social situations and then work with them on things they've seen. However, what it comes down to is what's in our heads, how we're perceiving everything. The "Looking-glass self" is how we perceive we are being viewed by others.

quote:
And then I've occasionally asked friends and gotten sometimes ambiguous and sometimes positive responses (with one, the look issue came up a little) -but you know, that sort of thing is really hard to ask friends, and it's probably even harder for friends to answer. I know myself personally have sometimes had to walk a fine line between my truthful opinon and not wanting to hurt my friend's feelings when someone asked me about a part of their life about which they were insecure. And I think (or at least I hope) that friends are friends in part /because/ they like you, anyway, so they're biased. And I don't currently have a friend I would prefer to date (I think the last time I did, was like 8th grade).
Yes, you're absolutely right here. The potential of feedback from friends is limited, and is meant more for just tweaking: it's hard to be unbiased and, like us here at the boards, they're not trained professionals.

quote:
Basically, I just think I'm screwed. And I guess I'm going through that period of my emotional cycle where I obsess more about it. But at least it's the weekend; after I finish a paper I'm gonna try to go party!
I don't think you're screwed but I agree you're at a point where such self-analysis is unfruitful and even unhealthy. From looking at your post history, posts you started yourself, I see a lot of underlying issues from your past, such as family pressure; this could certainly explain a lot, but this takes a certain amount of guided processing.

quote:
(And I'm not sure if this is what you mean before, but I do sort of feel that anyone who has never heard of or does not take the "I am not good looking enough for _____" thing at all seriously probably either is exceptionally good-looking themselves, or else is from a different culture/planet. Sorry for the downer, just sometimes I feel like these Scarleteen folks don't exist in the real world. I'm all about cultural change, but I can't live in denial of the current state of things permeating around me. And I think I'm /fine/ looking, but I'm not trying to date myself, either.)
This is exactly our point: all this is not about appearance, I swear. We aren't supermodels living in some parallel universe (hey, I'll take that as a compliment though!) but the way we look at these things is apparently very different than the way you do.

quote:
Really, I learned a lot from Scarleteen, but at this point I know I'm in the wrong place for all this, anyway. I'm older than most of the users, and most of the users are asking questions because they're actually sexually active. I kind of wish someone would start a website for the "over 19 and sexually inept/frustrated" crowd.
I'm glad you feel you've benefited from Scarleteen; I know I have, too. I think you're partially right here: The boards for intended more for one-shot questions; either a health-related question or a short interpersonal one. For example, someone with an eating disorder might list symptoms and we direct her/him to get more, personalized help. (Of course you know this and answer these questions yourself, such as your very good answer here.

You pose broad questions that are partially personal and partially social commentary; this can be interesting and good, but not really going to yield the in-depth you'd like. That's when, say, counseling sessions for the personal stuff and sociology/anthropology/psychology classes for the cultural discussions.

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
But see, counselor's don't observe me interacting with other people either, so they can't tell me if there's a problem I'm not perceiving either.
I think you're missing the point here.

I know you're reluctant about counseling, you have been for as long as you've been here, as I recall, and for as long as we've been suggesting that it is likely your best move.

The point of you getting counseling isn't for them to see how you interact with other people, say what you're "doing wrong," and fix it so you can get what you want.

The point, in your case as I see it, would be for a counselor to help you get to the bottom of why you're so darn obsessed with some of this stuff, why in so many ways, you seem to feel inclined to act against your own best interest (or define what you think you need the way you do), and to help you find ways to have a richer life and self-image that is not about other people's percpetion of you, getting what you want from others, your (and their) physical attractiveness, the works.

Because as far as I can see, other people behaving or responding to you in the narrow way you want them to isn't the problem here. (And chances are that even when someone DOES behave exactly how you want, or you find that ideal-perfect connection, unless you start to fix some of this stuff, you won't even see it when it's there, or be able to enjoy the real joy of having it: until you stop making so much of your worth, value, life about how you're viewed, seen or valued by an other in a sexual, surface way, you're not going to be able to really connect to anyone in any real way.)

And really, we're SO far beyond the point of being able to help you with this, and that's not about our wacky expectations or any or all of us living in some sort of social lalaland. It's about us over the time you've been here making suggestions that you always shoot down...basically, you seeming to want to do nothing else but find some way to make things go exactly as you want them without recognizing that it's your expectations, the way you think about socialization and sexual/romantic relationships, and how you define your self-worth by this stuff that are the big problems.

We've gone round and round, and it's not going anywhere. Certainly, if you wanted to, you could find communities where you'd have threads of other people, of any age, whinging nonstop about how the "right" people don't find them attractive and how the only thing they can find real worth in in life is getting that sort of validation: there is certainly more than one person stuck in that rut, unfortunately. And if that's what you want, by all means, go seek it out. (Who knows: looking in that mirror may even be depressing enough that it may help you.) But it's clear that we've all put our efforts in above and beyond the call with you and this issue, we've given you a lot of different suggestions over time, and at this point, you can either take'em or ditch'em, but it seems pretty nonproductive to keep going round and round on them here, okay?

Before I go, I have a couple books to suggest that I think might be of use to you. It's a mixed-bag, but I think any and all of these might be smart for you to dig into if you are earnestly invested in just being happier with yourself, your life, and the way you view partnerships/love, in and out of context (and yes, a couple of them are self-helpy, but I think there are times and places for that, and you're in one of them):

I Need Your Love - Is That True?: How to Stop Seeking Love, Approval, and Appreciation and Start Finding Them Instead by Byron Katie

To get a good idea of Katie's style, and perhaps just be left with something to think on yourself today, which I think is penultimate for you, dig this: "When you say or do anything to please, get, keep, influence, or control anyone or anything, fear is the cause and pain is the result. Manipulation is separation, and separation is painful. Another person can love you totally in that moment, and you'd have no way of realizing it. If you act from fear, there's no way you can receive love, because you're trapped in a thought about what you have to do for love. Every stressful thought separates you from people."

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig. This is a classic, period, and a really awesome piece of work.

The Soul of Sex by Thomas Moore. This is a favorite of mine.

Addiction to Love: Overcoming Obsession and Dependency in Relationships by Susan Peabody

Communion: The Female Search for Love and All About Love: New Visions by bell hooks. bell is one of my top five favorite feminist authors, and she's insanely insightful when it comes to looking at the interpersonal. I know you're also often very interested in men's perspectives with these issues, and she also wrote an incredible book from that angle as well, The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity and Love.

Single State of the Union: Single Women Speak Out on Life, Love, and the Pursuit of Happiness by Diane Mapes.

So, there's a start for you to really start evaluating this from a different place than you have been, on your own.

I'll make one last suggestion before I go, and yes, it's kind of crunchy, but so be it.

I've never had to deal with the level of other-obsession you do. But, every now and then in my life, particularly when I was younger, I did have to deal with recognizing that I'd gotten myself in a space where I was just way too concerned with what other people thought of me, what value I had based on those perceptions, connections or lack of connections, and that rut that really meeses you up in which one gloms on to the idea that somehow the right attention from someone else fixes everything.

And the best thing I found for myself to do at time like that -- or at times when I felt sick of myself, and I was the last person I wanted to be around -- was to go take a solo journey in which there WERE no others, at all. For me, it would be a solo road trip or a solo campout for a few days. Yep, it means losing a day or two's pay when you work, or what have you, but it was always worth it. Something about having no one else TO deal with but myself, being in a space where I could re-appreciate even the simplest good things about my life alone, by myself (like making a fire, making camp, cooking a meal, taking a long walk, getting to choose where I went in a day without having to choose based on anyone but me, having a sunny swim, digging the solitary sounds of a morning or night, etc.) always helped a whole awful lot. Might be a thought for you.

[ 02-24-2007, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Now I feel kind of bad because that was such a long post from you, Heather.

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

Yeah I had a rather awesome and wise high school teacher who made everyone in his independent study class read that book. He also once told me that I reminded him of himself, because I seemed like I was always on an emotional rollercoaster, because I expected a lot from life.

I have posted before that I have been to a few counselors -whatever it is they do, I don't need that either.
I can do the buddhist thing, too, the whole detachment from material needs thing. Or at least, I understand it. I can will myself to not care. I know a lot of adults like my parents are pretty big on the whole acceptance thing, and maybe that really is how most people survive. But acceptance isn't the same thing as happiness, and I swear I know some older people who seem really happy most of the time with their life and their long-term relationships.

I'm not going around seeking self-approval, I swear. My desire to hookup with someone I find attractive is not about self-validation. I really don't have contempt for myself, maybe just occasionally when I'm particularly stressed out or something. I am who I am -I think I have a pretty reasonable understanding of what things about myself I can't change and what things I maybe could.

I feel pretty confident that the desire to be around people, or to have sex, are pretty biological. That's why people stranded alone for long periods of time go crazy. That's why if you're healthy there's nothing psychological you can do to will away a libido.

I just really happen to know that little changes can make a big difference. My transformation in high school in becoming more social was very much a conscious process that took some effort -I read books that helped me realize I had to smile at people, and ask them questions about themselves. While shallower, dressing nicer didn't hurt either. And I was so much happier, having friends and not being shunned by people my own age. Speech team in high school taught me some basic things about posture, and tone, and expression -and those little things make a big difference when you have need of those skills. There are so many things I know now, that if I could go back and tell my 14 yr-old self about dating and social skills, I think I could have benefitted then from knowing.

So really, I am looking to learn about little practical changes I could make, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I don't think it's any sort of a barrier to happiness. I know what the extreme end of self-loathing and insecurity looks like. My aunt has had plastic surgery 3 times, and still does things for an ex-husband who cheated on her with a younger woman. I might feel sorry for her except for the racist comments she makes and the fact that she said in front of my sister that my sister was chubby, thus making me want to bitch-slap her. I really don't think there's any danger of me going down that road.

When I suggested a website for a little bit older crowd, although there was also sarcasm I meant a website for like practical suggestions and political/social discussion and stuff. Because I'm gonna go out on a limb again and say that I feel anyone having a really functional relationship when they're 16 probably never suffered from social ackwardness to the degree that myself and some other people do, and therefore might not appreciate how much conscious effort has to be put into having smooth social interactions. You may have dealt with it better, if you were in my shoes, but I still feel like if you made it to 21 without having a relationship you might have been a different person.

[ 02-24-2007, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: iheartdc ]

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I really don't want to get into this anymore, but just a couple quickies:

quote:
I read books that helped me realize I had to smile at people, and ask them questions about themselves. While shallower, dressing nicer didn't hurt either. And I was so much happier, having friends and not being shunned by people my own age. Speech team in high school taught me some basic things about posture, and tone, and expression -and those little things make a big difference when you have need of those skills. There are so many things I know now, that if I could go back and tell my 14 yr-old self about dating and social skills, I think I could have benefitted then from knowing.
Again and again (and again, and again...) I keep hearing you talk about these skills you need to acquire to get what you want and get people to behave a certain way around you.

And when I hear something like "I read books that helped me realize I had to smile at people, and ask them questions about themselves," all I think is that it seems like you stop at the 'right" behaviours, rather than at recognizing that if you're not earnestly FEELING a desire, a real interest in other people to ask questions not to get them to like you, but simply because you ARE interested in that other person entirely separate from you, you have a very real hurdle you need to deal with.

Buddhism, for the record, isn't just about non-attachment (and part of material attachment, for the record, is attachment to partners-as-acquisition). Far more than that, it's about real compassion and acceptance with others and oneself. That's academic, but as a Buddhist, I felt the need to pint that out, because "the buddhist thing" being presented as tuning out rather than tuning in is pretty backwards.

Other than those two sniggles, by all means, seek out other venues if you like. But I earnestly don't see these veins of discussion with you here going anywhere: we've all put a LOT of effort into trying, pretty much every volunteer here, over a substantial amount of time and clearly, it's just not going anywhere. So, coming back and asking us the same sort of stuff again and again, and from what I can gather over the whole time you've been here, no one's answers ever being the ones you want, or the right ones, no matter how wide the range of answers, makes it pretty clear we've hit a dead end.

Happy, of course, to answer other kinds of questions you have, as we are for anyone, but I think it's come time for me to forthrightly ask that with this area of your concerns, you look elsewhere. Good luck with it.

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

  New Poll   Open Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Get the Whole Story! Go Home to SCARLETEEN: Sex Ed for the Real World | Privacy Statement

Copyright 1998, 2014 Heather Corinna/Scarleteen
Scarleteen.com: Providing comprehensive sex education online to teens and young adults worldwide since 1998

Information on this site is provided for educational purposes. It is not meant to and cannot substitute for advice or care provided by an in-person medical professional. The information contained herein is not meant to be used to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease, or for prescribing any medication. You should always consult your own healthcare provider if you have a health problem or medical condition.

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3