Donate Now

Topic Closed  Topic Closed
Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Gender Issues » women

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: women
babybear
Activist
Member # 30364

Icon 5 posted      Profile for babybear     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey guys.

I have to write a list on the pros and cons of women having equal rights to men.

Of course, the pros were a breeze to list. But the cons?

I pretty much had the idea that women would have to participate in the draft. Which, may not be a con to all women.

Any ideas?!

Posts: 250 | From: somewhere | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Could you make a list of cons "from some people's point of view"?
Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
babybear
Activist
Member # 30364

Icon 1 posted      Profile for babybear     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll have to ask the teacher!

(I wasn't planning on "stealing" any of your ideas, I just wanted to get the jist of what people felt [Smile] )

Posts: 250 | From: somewhere | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Light
Activist
Member # 32327

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Light     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
here is a con: if women have equal rights as men, people might not take pity on them in desperate situations, i.e. a town gets invaded. They used to kill the strong men, and leave the women and children, but now they might kill both men and women. Or in a titanic situation, women and children got on the boats first, nowadays it might be more equal, which would be a con for the women.

A bit of a strech, I know, but its a tough subject.

Posts: 70 | From: Nova | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh effing whatever... it has been /so/ common throughout history, in /so/ many situations... WW2 in Germany and East Asia, Africa, Vietnam, etc. for the invading soldiers to violently rape the women. And then of course lots of countries have provided visiting allied soldiers with "comfort women".

(Just for the purpose of historical accuracy, I don't really think that's something she can use, Light)

Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was thinking the assignment's answer could be something like: "Well, from the perspective of men who are currently in power, women gaining equal rights would be a threat to the men's position in society" or something like that...
Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Light
Activist
Member # 32327

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Light     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wounded Knee:
The words of historian Robert M. Utley make our point best: "Wounded Knee was not deliberate; overcharged emotions touched off a bloodbath that neither side intended or foresaw. Nor was it indiscriminate; the troops tried to spare women and children, and did spare many, but they were mixed up with the men and often impossible to identify in the smoke and confusion."

Terrorism:
Cairo - Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has urged would-be suicide bombers not to kill Israeli civilians, saying it was "inadmissible to kill a child or a woman in a restaurant", an Arabic newspaper reported on Sunday.

In General: Click

In the interests of historical accuracy, it is a valid point.

Edit: I edited out that large link--it was doing some funny stuff to the page formatting. That's all! Thanks!--Darkie

[ 02-04-2007, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: DarkChild717 ]

Posts: 70 | From: Nova | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
000
Activist
Member # 30201

Icon 1 posted      Profile for 000     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What I mean, is that there are also plenty of cases (with U.S. soldiers, included) where women have been /targets/ of violence. So even with some cases where soldiers tried to spare women, you cannot make generalities about that being the case w/o equal rights. (And I'm not sure why an equal rights ammendment would change the way civilians at war time were handled anyway. The U.S. army is not supposed to target /any/ civilians unless "necessary".)
Posts: 443 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Women have been casualties of war, in great numbers, from the start of war. Rape, at a point of fact, pretty much became as pervasive as it is as a very intentional tool and spoil of war, traceable in great numbers at least back to the Greeks and Romans.

So, arguing that were there equality, women would no longer be spared from trauma or injury from war, strikes me as baseless, since through the whole of history, women have generally never been spared: we've been tortured pretty routinely, albeit in different ways sometimes than men are (and that also includes girls, and less often, but often enough to note, boys young enough to be easily feminized). If you mean that rather than just being killed outright, women have been "spared" by being rapes and tortured, sometimes by tens to hundreds of soldiers, sometimes over months (and many in ancient times were even forced to marry their rapists)...well, that's an unusual defintion of "spared" in my book. And this hasn't decreased over time: it's as pervasive as ever (look for instance in parts of the Hebrew scriptures, at the organized gang rapes of World War I in Belgium, in Nanking, in the Cambodian wars, in Bosnnia/Herzegovina, etc.). If this had not been a pervasive issue, it'd be pretty hard to explain why it was (finally) addressed in the Geneva Convention additions in the late 40's. On top of that, what's more common is for women to be tortured and killed just as men are and ADDITIONALLY subjected to sexual violence which men are not.

And in fact, much of that is expressly because of a lack of equality: raping civilian women, aside of being pure entertainment, is in part a way of getting to the male enemy, because the women are seen as their property. Rape was expressly made to be a crime against a woman's "owner." There are loads of ideals (however warped) about "killing men honorably," even on opposing sides of war. No such "honors" are applied to women.

(And per Wounded Knee and other related battles, one of the biggest ways whites destroyed the native population was via the spread of syphilis and other sexually transmitted diseases: I assure you that wasn't spread via male-male rapes.)

P.S. What kind of teacher asks students to list "cons" of human equality? Ten bucks says he wouldn't make the same sort of assignment for racial segregation. Christ. Were it me, in the list of pros, I'd have included "not having this kind of obvious sexism in my school assignments," or "Not having to have a teacher, someone whom I am supposed to admire and respect, not even think twice about degrading everyone in this class with bigotry masquerading as education." )

[ 02-04-2007, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DarkChild717
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 139

Icon 1 posted      Profile for DarkChild717     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Light:
Wounded Knee:
The words of historian Robert M. Utley make our point best: "Wounded Knee was not deliberate; overcharged emotions touched off a bloodbath that neither side intended or foresaw. Nor was it indiscriminate; the troops tried to spare women and children, and did spare many, but they were mixed up with the men and often impossible to identify in the smoke and confusion."


I'd like to point out that history, as it were, is written by the victor. What victor would want history to see them as mindless murderers? History itself has a bias, and relying on a single source and a single story is never wise. This is why the bibliographies of credible documents are pages long; they consider all sides of the story.

While Wounded Knee isn't relevant to sexuality, and is a bit off topic, I'll say this: Like so much, it didn't even need to happen, so the fact that ANYONE was killed should not be overlooked.

To bring it back a bit, while death is a permanent state of being, a rape victim lives. The dead are mourned; the raped are made to feel worthless. They lived every day with the memory and reminder of what has happened. In some case, the raped woman may have gotten pregnant, and bear a child that while loved, is still the product of rape.

Just points to think about.

--------------------
Caylin, Scarleteen Volunteer
Love Scarleteen? Donations keep us around for you. So give a little! (Or a lot. Whatever works for you.)

Posts: 2789 | From: The Evergreen State | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
babybear
Activist
Member # 30364

Icon 1 posted      Profile for babybear     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, excellent points.

I don't have the time to make a full response, but I just want to say... RIGHT ON HEATHER! There really are no cons to human equality. I was actually thinking about that last night upon creating my list.

Posts: 250 | From: somewhere | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djuna
Activist
Member # 29269

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djuna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The only possible con I can think of is a possible drain on the economy due to women's wages being increased to be paid the same as men.
But nevertheless, this assignment is kinda stoopid. What kind of teacher teaches agains equality. Isn't that unconstitutional or something? She could get fi-yad for that so easy.

--------------------
In a strange room, before you are emptied for sleep, what are you. And when you are filled with sleep you never were. I dont know what I am. I dont know if I am or not... how often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home.

Posts: 1269 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JamsessionVT
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 17924

Icon 1 posted      Profile for JamsessionVT     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Try not to forget that there are many jobs where women ARE paid the same as men, if not more. This tends to be an issue more in the higher ranking jobs, but plenty of women make good money, as much as a male counterpart. So I doubt that increasing wages for those women would "drain the economy".

--------------------
Abbie
Scarleteen Volunteer
Love Us? Keep Us Around by Donating!

Posts: 3987 | From: Greater Burlington Area, Vermont | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djuna
Activist
Member # 29269

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djuna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In America maybe. In the UK there is a substantial difference of about 5-10K pa ($10-20K) for graduates.

--------------------
In a strange room, before you are emptied for sleep, what are you. And when you are filled with sleep you never were. I dont know what I am. I dont know if I am or not... how often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home.

Posts: 1269 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
Open Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Get the Whole Story! Go Home to SCARLETEEN: Sex Ed for the Real World | Privacy Statement

Copyright 1998, 2014 Heather Corinna/Scarleteen
Scarleteen.com: Providing comprehensive sex education online to teens and young adults worldwide since 1998

Information on this site is provided for educational purposes. It is not meant to and cannot substitute for advice or care provided by an in-person medical professional. The information contained herein is not meant to be used to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease, or for prescribing any medication. You should always consult your own healthcare provider if you have a health problem or medical condition.

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3