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Author Topic: Bad Boy?
Dan---
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The media, and often in the forums you may see the male being portrayed as the one who rapes, watches to much porn, cheats and lies? Is it just me or are males often seen as the bad one?

From birth boys are often treated much differently than girls. Growing up I often found myself bent over, receiving the "paddle of tears" as my brother and I called it. I realize that boys naturally tend to do more dangerous things and end up getting in trouble for it, but the girls in my family were always treated much differently, it was always pretty girl, shes such a good girl, isn't that cute. It was much like the boys were the ugly slaves and the girls were the beautiful princesses.

My question is, why are we raised so differently? Do the effects carry on... most people in prison are men, I honestly feel that a man on trial for theft has a greater chance of being found guilty than a women with the same charge does.

Please express your feelings on this topic, girls, how do you feel about this, and guys, anything else you can think of that makes us the "Bad Boy".

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Menthol
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There's an evolutionary reason why males are prone to riskier behavior. Classically, they were the "hunters," and hunting is risky, dangerous business. It takes a certain degree of wrecklessness to plunge headlong into a stampeding herd of buffalo (or whatever).

It was imperative for females to form strong relationships with fellow women... for the communal raising of children, systematic gathering of wild fruits and nuts and what-have-you, and the preparation of the game brought home by the men. Drying meat is a huge endeavor. Affection and coddling facilitated these strong bonds.

But in our modern world, humans are less defined by clan or community. We're more individual and our family units are smaller. We don't have to hunt or gather or farm or any of that, anymore.

While such attitudes ARE slowly but surely being minimized... stifling instinct which helped keep humanity alive for so long is going to be a long process.

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logic_grrl
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The media, and often in the forums you may see the male being portrayed as the one who rapes, watches to much porn, cheats and lies?

Just as a point of fact: the vast majority of rapes are committed by men. So it's not surprising that board posts by users describing rape reflect that.

That's not an issue of "portrayal", but of fact.

And it's not because men are inherently "bad" or because women are incapable of being abusive. In all likelihood, it has a whole lot to do with how people are socialized and what they are taught to see as acceptable.

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000
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Just FYI, Menthol?

All that stuff you wrote is not really something heralded by the current scientific community. It's pretty speculative. It's not like we have a way to prove it. Throughout history, though, a lot of people have come up with "evolutionary-based reasons" for upholding the status quo. So basically, I just don't like perpetuating that kind of reasoning when we don't know for sure. (I mean think of this -do you really think it would not be /advantageous/ for men to also cooperate well when they were out on the hunt? I have a feeling things are actually pretty complicated, evolutionarily-speaking.)

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Menthol
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I'm not saying that it's an excuse for being a testosterone-fueled jackass... or an excuse for encouraging such behavior. But it's what I was taught in pychology 101.

Let me reiterate. Regardless of the CAUSE of such gender-stereotypical behavior, there is no longer any valid reason for these sorts of attitudes to continue to exisit. I'm not trying to perpetuate or encourage anything.

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PenguinBoy
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I think the man's got a fair point in the different way in which boys are brought up.

I think there must be a domino effect of male role models and father figures who push the stereotypes that were enforced on themselves. I think many things are inherited, but not always genetically.

The human brain is pretty advanced, and even if men have got more of some chemical whizzing round there than women, they have the capacity to counteract that, or we all WOULD be rapists. So there must therefore be other factors effecting men's behaviour.

And just because there are more robberies, rapes and murders committed by men than women, doesn't mean that boys should be disciplined more harshly or aggressively than girls. Nor that they should be spoken to entirely differently.

Dan-- "male being portrayed as the one who rapes, watches to much porn, cheats and lies"

logic_grrl "not an issue of "portrayal", but of fact."

is it a matter of fact that male is the one sex who rapes watches too much porn, cheats and lies?

Maybe it's fact that they do MORE so. But not that they are the only ones who commit these.

Allot of stereotypes are based on facts, but it doesn't mean that they should be allowed to speak for the huge proportion who are not obedient to those facts.

[ 12-29-2006, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: PenguinBoy ]

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LilBlueSmurf
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is it a matter of fact that male is the one sex who rapes watches too much porn, cheats and lies?

Maybe it's fact that they do MORE so. But not that they are the only ones who commit these.

Allot of stereotypes are based on facts, but it doesn't mean that they should be allowed to speak for the huge proportion who are not obedient to those facts.


I really don't see anyone here saying that men are the ONLY ones who do these things. It has already been acknowledged earlier in the thread that this is not the case.

Again, it's not a 'portrayal' that the majority of rapists are men if it's the truth. No one is trying to trick anyone into believing something false; no one is being dishonest.

Here's a question for you ... If you hear about a rapist on the loose in your area on the radio or television, do you ask yourself what he looks like, or do you think, maybe it's a woman? Personally, i usually assume it's a man, NOT b/c women cannot rape, but b/c the vast majority of the time, it IS a man.

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PenguinBoy
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quote:
Originally posted by LilBlueSmurf:

I really don't see anyone here saying that men are the ONLY ones who do these things. It has already been acknowledged earlier in the thread that this is not the case.

Again, it's not a 'portrayal' that the majority of rapists are men if it's the truth. No one is trying to trick anyone into believing something false; no one is being dishonest.

Here's a question for you ... If you hear about a rapist on the loose in your area on the radio or television, do you ask yourself what he looks like, or do you think, maybe it's a woman? Personally, i usually assume it's a man, NOT b/c women cannot rape, but b/c the vast majority of the time, it IS a man.

I assume it's a man.

I agree. but what I interpreted was dan's original post as saying was that there is a portrayal of men being only ones. (right?)

and then in reply it was said that it was a fact.

And I put the two quotes which said that, next to each other.

The fact may be that the MAJORITY of rapes are conducted by men. And i said yes to that.

I hope I didn't misinterpret the comments.

As it said later on in logic grrls comment:
quote:
it's not because men are inherently "bad" or because women are incapable of being abusive. In all likelihood, it has a whole lot to do with how people are socialized and what they are taught to see as acceptable.
I certainly didn't intend to accuse anyone of being dishonest at all.

I was just trying to say that the fact was about men being more likely to commit these crimes (this is true). but the portrayal dan was talking about was that all men are dangerous and "the bad ones" as he said. And i didn't mean to imply that people here were saying that. I was saying that this portrayal was unfair to men who predominantly are not rapists.

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logic_grrl
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Dan referred to "The media, and often in the forums you may see the male being portrayed as the one who rapes, watches to much porn, cheats and lies".

I don't know exactly what Dan's intention was, but I thought it was important to clarify this factual point since he referred to the forums as "portraying" this.

Posts on the forums where someone describes having been raped by a man are not a "portrayal" of anything, and people should not be made to feel that mentioning the gender of their abuser is somehow perpetuating a stereotype or "unfair" to men.

Do you see the issue?

I was saying that this portrayal was unfair to men who predominantly are not rapists.

I don't see how this follows.

Saying that "nearly all rapists are men" (which is a statistical fact) does not lead to or imply "nearly all men are rapists" (which is obviously not true), and I haven't seen anyone say that it does.

In fact, I haven't seen anyone on the forums say that all men are dangerous or "the bad ones" - or at least, not without being corrected immediately by a mod.

I think Dan's started a really interesting topic, but it's important to be able to fight stereotypes (that guys are innately "bad") without ignoring facts.

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"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it." - the Talmud

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PenguinBoy
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I thought he was just talking about forums in general, and the media.

I'm sorry about that.

I was not trying ignore the facts about rape, or encourage anyone to suppress statistics!

Any portrayal i mentioned is NOT about people talking about rape experiences and not THIS forum. I was only addressing the CONCEPT of portraying men as a sex as being "bad".

quote:
Originally posted by logic_grrl:
Saying that "nearly all rapists are men" (which is a statistical fact) does not lead to or imply "nearly all men are rapists" (which is obviously not true), and I haven't seen anyone say that it does.

^^ that is what i was trying to say!

As far as I'm concerned we're in agreement on the actual issue. So I'm unsure of what to say apart from that if I feel there's disagreement over technicalities in communicating thoughts rather than opinions. And I think it is probably best to move on.

PS - in regards to:
quote:
Originally posted by logic_grrl:
In fact, I haven't seen anyone on the forums say that all men are dangerous or "the bad ones" - or at least, not without being corrected immediately by a mod.

I really do respect that and AM thankful for it.

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logic_grrl
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As far as I'm concerned we're in agreement on the actual issue. So I'm unsure of what to say apart from that if I feel there's disagreement over technicalities in communicating thoughts rather than opinions.

Yup, it does seem like a communication issue. Glad we could clarify it [Smile] .

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"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it." - the Talmud

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Dan---
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Why I say the forums portray men as the "Bad Boy" is mainly because everytime a moderator responds to a girls question about a relationship, the first thing they mention is, did he force you, its your choice. Then when a guy asks a question they don't even mention the girlfriend pressuring the guy! I understand that it is difficult for a female to rape a man, but she can still do other things. I don't want to seem mean here, but females seem to attack metally, instead of physically, if men made the things some femals do to them mentaly more known to the world they would be seen just as bad! The biggest problem I have with this sterotype is that I feel targeted as a male, when females all seem more inocent...

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-Lauren-
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The staff and mods here only make it a point to ask users about possible pressure from their partner/ difficulties expressing their limits if the user suggests that something like that might be taking place. We strive to ensure everyone's safety and health, regardless of gender. We realize females are capable of abusive behavior, too, and ask the same questions of males with similar concerns.

quote:
I don't want to seem mean here, but females seem to attack metally, instead of physically, if men made the things some femals do to them mentaly more known to the world they would be seen just as bad!
Stereotypical generalizations like that aren't acceptable here. Crappy tendencies toward manipulative behavior exist in all genders.

(I'm sorry you feel targeted by some of the subjects around here. If you'd like them addressed further, please send an email to boards @ scarleteen.com. Per the guidelines, personal issues with the board aren't to be discussed publicly. Thanks!)

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SatisfactionBroughtItBack
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im female but I do agree with what you are saying.For instance..I am good friends with some guys and all of us dress like drapes(rough cut,kinda punk-ish,ie,we dont look friendly but are).We are all very kind and friendly,but yes as i said we all look equally threatening because of the choice of fashion..and YET..when we go into a supermarket,it is always the guys not the girls who get followed by the security gaurds...
It kinda makes me angry..its like..i want us all to be equal even if it means we get followed too...I dont like this feeling that the guys are the 'bad ones'.I'm really close to these guys and they are the most kindly,most sensitive people I know,hardly troublemakers..but becase they are guys,they are watched suspiciously wherever we go.
I feel angry at the ignorance at some people.There are girls I know who would do things 10 times worse than anything the guys would even DREAM of..and yet nobody bats an eye when they walk into the shop simply because they are girls.
Does any other girls feel angry at this injustice to their male friends?

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Heather
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quote:
Does any other girls feel angry at this injustice to their male friends?
Trouble is that it's not really an injustice.

In other words, it's based in reality: most crimes -- like theft, and more particularly, violent crimes -- are and always have been commited by men. In these things we are not equal, nor would I presume we'd want to be, and the fact of the matter is that while your particular group of friends may vary or seem to vary, things like this are overwhelmingly more likely to occur due to men than to women.

Trouble certainly lies in applying a broad brush to everyone, and making judgments based on dress or FALSE judgments based on gender, but when it comes to safety and the law, you have to be broad to some degree. If the safety guards or police followed everyone around unilaterally, instead of doing what they can to make their best guess, based on realities, per who they paid attention to, they'd not be very efficient.

And while the men who I choose to have in my life are also men who I know, or sincerely trust, would not commit serious crimes, those same men also don't tend to have a problem with sound protections/generalizations being applied based on current gender realities, even if they don't apply to them personally.

[ 03-22-2007, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]

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chessplayer
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hey logic_grrrl just because most rapist are men, doesn't mean most men are rapist.
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Heather
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And I didn't see her suggesting that anywhere.

In fact, she said, quite specifically, that that was not the case.

quote:
Saying that "nearly all rapists are men" (which is a statistical fact) does not lead to or imply "nearly all men are rapists" (which is obviously not true), and I haven't seen anyone say that it does.


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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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Queer Power
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quote:
Originally posted by Heather:
In other words, it's based in reality: most crimes -- like theft, and more particularly, violent crimes -- are and always have been commited by men. In these things we are not equal, nor would I presume we'd want to be, and the fact of the matter is that while your particular group of friends may vary or seem to vary, things like this are overwhelmingly more likely to occur due to men than to women.

Is this not what people say to defend racial profiling? If men are always followed in stores, that means that women would get away with stealing more often, making the statistics meaningless. If you always go after a certain group of people, of course they're going to be arrested more often. (Note: I say this as someone who is pro-shoplifting and anti-police).

Most survivors of (non-sexual) assault and violence (both state violence, including imprisonment, and street violence) in general are male, but I don't think men are generally treated as survivors. I think that part of machismo is for men to not talk about being hurt or attacked - physically or psychologically - and to silence men when they try to talk about their feelings or emotions. I think creating an image of male-as-abuser is part of this silencing and continues the cycle of men abusing each other.

If we look at this society we see that 95% of prisoners are male. Heather and others have argued on this thread that this is because men commit more crimes, but I think that according to who's in prison, that line of reasoning would also lead to saying 'blacks commit more crimes' and so on. It apologizes for police and the prison-industrial complex and doesn't offer an analysis of state repression. I don't think that prison or police exist to 'protect people', much less protect women.

Neither women nor men constitute social clasees. There are very clear class divisions in this world, but they don't happen along the lines of sex or gender. If we want to look at who steals, who is put in prison, who is followed around in stores, and so on I think that the answer is poor and working class men and women, particularly people of color. In some cases - custody battles, prison sentencing, etc - the state is 'easier' on women, and in others the state upholds male domination (rape cases, etc). The problem with the game of 'who is the most oppressed' is that nobody wins. I think that how we can get out of this mess is by uniting around our common interests and experiences, and acting together for ourselves.

[ 04-24-2007, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Queer Power ]

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Heather
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quote:
I think that how we can get out of this mess is by uniting around our common interests and experiences, and acting together for ourselves.

Sorry, Queer, but when my sex makes substantially less on the dollar than those who are male, when my reproductive rights are held hostage by a body composed primarily of men (and largely because men have done all they can to keep it that way), when men rape (women and men, though women are still more greatly victimized) and also enable systems which prevent their crimes, as a class, from being reported or punished, when my legal system -- like most systems in charge of our rights and well-being as women -- is dominated and gated by men, when overwhelmingly, the poor of the world are majority female (and by all means, this often gets compounded by race), to suggest there are not class differences between men and women just in those few (and there are many, many more) basic and overarching givens alone is proposterous and disingenuous.

And if my economic class were different, all of the above would still stand: only if my sex were different would those factors be different for me, even if women of a certain economic or racial status may suffer more greatly due to compunded oppressions.

Calling out men for perpetrating crimes when they ARE the perpetrators is not silencing men, but asking women to keep quiet about who victimizes them -- and lord knows, we've been asked not to individually and as a class for all of history, IS. And we don't need to look at who is in prison to figure out who commits the crimes: we can simply ask the VICTIMS, and we are all capable of speaking, even though we're so often asked or ordered not to. Sit in a room with 50, 100, 500 rape and sexual abuse survivors and ask who raped, abused and assaulted them. To state that victims naming their abusers and their sex enables MALE violence towards men is -- I'm sorry -- not only ridiculous in my book, it's yet again, more victim-blaming, of the sort we're all used to.

Women and men ARE different social classes nearly everywhere in the world. Certainly, men harm their own as WELL under their own systems, and you'll get no argument from me there: I absolutely think patriarchy hurts everyone. But men oppress women -- men are the dominant class-- and the real kicker is, because we do NOT have equal status, we do not have agency to opt out of that oppression. We DO constitute social classes: we certainly don't have to, but the way the system is set up in nearly every corner of the globe right now, again, BY men, we do.

Believe me: I sure the heck don't want to be of unequal status, and I don't know many people who do, so people stating that we are aren't trying to keep everyone in harm's way: quite the opposite.

And asking me or any other woman in the world to just ignore the status we have been given and "help everyone" is just....I don't have a word for that which I'd post here, honestly. Women have spent nearly all of history spending more of their energy helping men rather than helping themselves even just equally: clearly, fixing male-perpetrated violence isn't something women can fix (especially given that again, we aren't given the equal power and agency to do so, besides), and something that men really need to start devoting themselves to. And if you're looking for a "why don't all of them," then look back to my first para here, because, as a class, it has a whole lot to do with the fact that our sexes DO have different social/class status, and a great many men do NOT want that to be any different.

You may find Barry's words/posts here and here helpful in sussing this all out. Or, you could look even to a sentence in a page you linked someone to just a few days ago:

quote:
Men commit the most outrageous harassments and insults against women simply because they can get away with it: they know they will not get hurt for saying and doing things that, between two men, would quickly lead to a fist fight or a stabbing. There are no consequences for abusing women.
(Per your comparison to racial profiling -- I don't think it's apt, no, especially when you consider, if you would, the original topic and what was asked within it, as well as what specifically I was responding to: indeed, most of these crimes ARE committed by men as a class and majority, of all colors, and that is not simply based on who is imprisoned for them, but on who DOES them: crime doesn't happen in a vaccuum, after all -- those who have had the crimes done TO their person, or who witnessed said crimes, almost always knows who did them to them.)

P.S. You do recognize that it doesn't really help your argument here to state clearly that you support theft, being someone who is sexed male, right?

[ 04-24-2007, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]

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Queer Power
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So you're saying that rich women and poor women belong to the same class? That at my last job I was in the dominant class over my female manager? Doesn't this deny class divisions amongst women? Capitalist women don't work for a wage, so they're certainly not concerned with making less per hour then men...

All women don't have shared interest. A woman who owns a business does not have the same interest as the women she employs. A woman who's a judge or prison guard does not have the same interest as a women who's in prison. The men and women who work at that business and the men and women who are sentenced to prison terms by that judge DO have common interests.

I'm not saying women should "help men". I'm saying exploited people should assert their common interests against capital and the state, and that bosses and cops are enemies no matter what's between their legs. If you want to place these ideas in the feminist canon, I would look to the autonomous marxist feminists of the late 70'x, particularly in Italy and the theories that emerged from those struggles, though I'm more drawn to the history of extremist groups like Os Cangaceiros.

As far as the paragraph you quoted from 'Justice is a Women With a Sword', I totally agree with it. I think every woman - and man - should have the tools (weapons) and knowledge available to defend themself from an attacker. Abusers are not going to change anytime soon, but women can arm themselves right now.

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Heather
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quote:
So you're saying that rich women and poor women belong to the same class? That at my last job I was in the dominant class over my female manager? Doesn't this deny class divisions amongst women?
If you read what I posted, you'll note that I said quite specifically that these divisions increase when we also factor inadditional classes and oppressions like race and economic class, but that ALL women, of any race or class, and subject to those oppressions, though the harm done by them, and the level of enactment of those oppressions often varies.

As I understand it, you are male-bodied. if I am mistaken, my apologies, and feel free to correct me. But yes:overwhelmingly, when we are looking at the whole picture, not merely one facet, the class of sex trumps the class of economics, which is incredibly obvious when we not only note that far more women than men live in poverty in the first plave, but also appraise ourselves of the issues that women and men of the lowest incomes deal with and the sex discrepancies --

(such as far higher rates of being a victim of physical and sexual domestic abuse than their male counterparts, lesser access to comprehensive healthcare, even greater extrenal controls over their reproductive rights -- observe the history of forced sterilization for low-income women, but NOT men, for whom sterilization is also a possibly reversibale and far less invasive process -- the fact that low-income mothers are overwhelmingly more often single parents than low-income fathers, and mothers of the lowest economic classes more often become pregnant via rape by men of their own class, no less, just for starters)

-- which are almost always not only present, but glaringly obvious.

All women do not have identical interests or the same agenda, absolutely, But that does not negate that all women are an oppressed class, and that men, as a class, are a dominating class. Most bosses, most law-enforces, most lawmakers, most of ALL the people who have the power TO oppress, because of the system we live in, are MALE.

That does not mean all men have equal power or equal agency, but what it does mean (did you check out those links, by any chance?) is that when we have women as a class, and men as a class, at this time, in nearly every corner of the world, and solely or only on the basis of sex, men have more power and status than women.

quote:
The men and women who work at that business and the men and women who are sentenced to prison terms by that judge DO have common interests.
Having common interests does not, simply by that commonality, make their needs the same, nor their oppressions the same. That is an incredibly simplistic view.

So, when we are talking about men being the perpetrators of the vast majority of violent crime, for instance, the men and the women jailed by the same judge cannot be presumed to be in the same place (especially when you consider how many women are in prison BECAUSE of men in a compunded way -- their jailers and judges were male, men as a class enable their poverty, many women in prison committed the crimes that they did FOR men or because of them, e cetera, et cetera.

And I'd suggest you reread that quote from the piece I gave you: if women were NOT oppressed by men, as a class, that quote -- and much of the piece -- would be without merit.

FYI?

quote:
Capitalist women don't work for a wage, so they're certainly not concerned with making less per hour then men...
Again, you're saying really proposterous things which are factually incorrect. Women who are salaried are ALSO those who make less on the dollar than men -- wage differences between women and men are not only calculated for hourly-wage workers -- and women around the world daily, actively VOICE and have voiced these concerns: doctors, lawyers, writers, professors, women in corporations, the works. Who are you to deny their concerns, and how on earth have you somehow missed hearing their voices or reading their words?

[ 04-24-2007, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]

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manuelrodriguez
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we are not different from them, guys! the present society declare that lousy concept!

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