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» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Gender Issues » Video game hero(ine)s (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Video game hero(ine)s
Rizzo
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I saw a segment on TV tonight about the role of women in video games. The good news is that there are more female characters in video games than there used to be. The bad news is that they are usually highly sexualized.

To be fair, the men in video games are usually quite unrealistic as well. They have bulging muscles where the women have bulging... other things

What kind of message is this sending to children? Do you think that the ideals of masculinity and femininity are more exaggerated in video games than in other media?

(For related topics see: http://www.scarleteen.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/000449.html
and http://www.scarleteen.com/forum/Forum25/HTML/000019.html )


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BlackRoseFaery
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Some video games are really bad in that sense, but take Resident Evil. The girl, Jill, is a lead character and while you can tell that she has breasts, she's dressed in fatigues, and not revealing ones! ^.^ Plus, she really kicks butt! he he...but this all my opinion.
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Rizzo
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I tend to prefer games designed for children (like pokemon or Harry Potter) or girly games like Ecco. Heehee. Although they tend to be a little wimpy, at least they don't have busty women everywhere in them.
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badly_behaved_badger
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Yes, I think masculinity and femininity are exaggerated in some video games, especially ones aimed at an older age group. I don't think the video game industry does this any more than, say, the porno industry, but video games aren't usually supposed to be all about sex.

Video games don't use real people, the makers have a bit of 'artistic license' so they can exaggerate any physical features that they think people will find attractive.

As for the messages that these games give to children, I think most kids would recognise that the characters aren't real, and they ar more likely to want to be like video game heroes because they *save the world from evil*, rather than what they look like.

*Badger*


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Pumpkin_Pie
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Look at Tomb Raider right, Lara Croft has about 36FF breats, but manages to backflips and dodge wolves and climb walls and spin arund. Its completely insane.

I think taht a lot of video games and movies are giving out this idea that you can't be a hero or a heroine without giant boobs and washboards abs. Resident Evil is also a game that promotes this insane and ridiculous theory.

p.s. I still play them and love them though...


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Celtic Daisy
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I tend to enjoy games like final fantasy and umm...Shadow Hearts. Those games i like because they're role playing games and they have stories i enjoy. Usually the main character is male, but you pick up about 8 people during a game and have realistic looking males and females.(depending on where it's set, y'know, if people are in a different world, or the new final fantasy has a lord of the rings type feel in my opinion)

I think it all depends on which game you're playing, but on other games, like Lara Croft, i wish they would tone it down a bit.

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Gaffer
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I like the Final Fantasy series too, and often it's obvious that the creators didn't want the game to look realistic. The hairstyles make this very clear, and the game is called Final Fantasy after all.

But I do think gender stereotypes are a pretty common thing in most video games. Lara is a good example, as is Tidus in FFX, not to mention Mr. Bond's womanizing in the 007 series. But more important than these stereotypes, I think anyone playing a video game knows that it's not real life--that's half the fun.


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Grizabella
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I'm a FF fan too. The women are pretty tastefully done, although many of them wear skirts that just don't seem like very practical clothing for fighting monsters. I have noticed, however, that in FF8 one of the Guardian Forces is a very scantily dressed ice goddess.
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Pumpkin_Pie
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Ah, Shiva, she's been like that in Final Fnatasy since FF7, if not before. Tifa in FF7 was a bit on the top heavy side though wasn't she?

Aeris was a cutie. I cried for ages when she had after that horrible kebab incident.


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Confused boy
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I am a bit of a fan of Final Fantasy too. Though I am not very impressed with recent characterisation. FF7 had simply but sweet characters that matched the cute graphics well but now we see far more realistic graphics, but no more complexity in the characters.

Oh and I suppose it is worth mentioning that some people regard Duke Nukem as the gaming worlds main gay icon. I am not sure myself, but his character is apparently full of homo-eroticism.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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Pumpkin_Pie
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I never played Duke Nukem myself, but on the cover he looks pretty macho.

I hated FF8, I thought there was too much characterisation. So many boring incidents with Quistis and Squall, blah blah blah. The best scene was the ballroom scene, or maybe the beach.


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Dzuunmod
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I don't know that anyone playing a video game can fully understand what they're seeing. As for the comparison to porn, I'd say that many - maybe even most - gamers are under the age of 18. Presumably, the same thing cannot be said of porn. When I was, oh, 13, I don't think I knew of a single boy who didn't at least have a casual interest in video games.

There's an exhaustive study on the sorts of issues being brought up in this thread - and it's over here.

Yes, yes, I know that just because a study says it, that doesn't make it so. But that doesn't mean it's not true, either. Think about it this way: in terms of television, music videos, video games, movies and porn, have you ever seen a study that says that women, or blacks or gays or muslims are represented fairly? Neither have I. If it was possible to have such a study, I'm sure the TV, music video, video game, movie and porn people (read:men) would get together and commission it (okay, well, maybe not the porn people).

Most of the video game Web sites that I've visited (a fair few, as a gamer myself - though mostly I play sports and Sim games) have ads for porn sites. This suggests to me that the two are aiming at the same demographic, and maybe the two serve to reinforce terrible, terrible stereotypes about race and gender.

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blaze_of_glory1985
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When I was, oh, 13, I don't think I knew of a single boy who didn't at least have a casual interest in porn myself.

Well, anyway, Suply and demand, the whole point in playing games is u get to be who you desire to be, fantays, not reality.

And it sells


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Dzuunmod
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The difference though, blaze, is that 13 year old boys can legally buy video games.

Women get beat up all the time in video games, and no one blinks an eye. If women were beat up (and killed) on film, the way it goes down in video games, I imagine we'd see a bit more of an outcry.

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'I see the plane... come with supplies... now we don't die!'
-The Rheostatics, "P.I.N."


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Pumpkin_Pie
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What I find a lot more scary in video games, to be honest, is the amount of violence and killing in games such as Grand Theft Auto, where u actually gain money for every person u kil, and u get kill frenzies where if u kill, say, thirty people in two minutes u get a monetary bonus.I find that very very worrying.

As are shoot em up games. I've played so many now, I think I could safely say I have a prety good shot with a real gun.

Kids play these games, and they're going out on to the street with the knowledge of how to shoot someone, and with the theory that its ok.
I think its a huge contribution to the many shootings all over the U.S and other places, where guns are easily accessible.

That's more scary than scantily clad women in my book any day.

But this probably isn't the place for this discussion. Just wanted to add another two of my cents.

[This message has been edited by Slayer_gurl (edited 06-26-2002).]


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Dzuunmod
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I think you're right, Slayer, that video game violence is something to be concerned about, but it's not so much something to be discussed in the Gender Issues forum.

Sadly, I think the only way that ridiculousness such as all this is going to change, is if consumers vote with their dollars. If parents really knew what their kids were playing, I think we'd see far fewer Grand Theft Auto-type games, and more Sim-type, or, I don't know, Pa Rappa-type games.

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'I see the plane... come with supplies... now we don't die!'
-The Rheostatics, "P.I.N."


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Confused boy
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I feel your argument dodges some rather important issues. Firstly, GTA and its sequels all have an 18 certificate. Therefore parents and guardians MUST know what they are buying before their kids can get there hands on them (presuming the laws are enforced). Secondly, playing these games will show that there are plenty of subtleties and ironies within it, showing that this game is not aimed at "the kids" because such additions would be wasted on them. Add what is basically cartoon style violence and I dont feel GTA in particular is a massive risk to todays youth.

I feel the major problem with these games is that they are becoming more and more open ended. They give you a world and let you do anything you want in it. So how sick is the game? Really only as sick as the player.

There are other titles that are far more worrying. Soldier of Fortune 2 features the most realistic wound moddelling system in a game, and a standard collection weapons to test it out with. I dont think that has received quite as much media hassle because its quite a good propaganda excercise (the enemies are terrorists, the hero is based on a real life ex-US special forces chap called John Mullins). GTA, on the other hand, is singled out because of its satirising of large Western cities. I cannot think of many other games that dont follow the same conventions of action movies. They are enjoyed by the same audience. They are certificated in a similiar manner.

As for games for girls, I feel The Sims has proven that all you need is a few more creative ideas to engage with them. Though of course, I am all for dissolving gender boundaries and allowing girls and women to revel in the violence in many games as much as the boys and men! In the same way, the men should try more games like Sim City and Civilisation, not that many have not enjoyed them already.

EDIT: just spotted a rather strange part of that study. Ironic that a study into representation of women in video games would patronise women so strongly in this extract:

Girl-Friendly Scale
Each game in the study was also rated for its inclusion of features that have been found to appeal to girls. The resulting Girl-Friendly Scale had a range of 0-13 points based on the following criteria:

Games received one point for each of the following "girl-friendly" elements:

Female player-controlled characters
Cooperative play (ability to work cooperatively with other players)
Ability to create something
A reality-based environment
Puzzle-type activities
Presence of positive feedback
Availability of help
Slow or variable pace
Predictable and easy to follow game play
Clearly explained rules


Are all women only supposed to be interested in "reality"? Can they only cope when things are easy and predictable and plenty of help available? What kind of assumptions about female gamers are being made here! I think this is quite outrageous for a text that is trying to deal with these issues fairly.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky

[This message has been edited by Confused boy (edited 06-26-2002).]


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'rin
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i have a problem with videogame heroins, too. i tend to annoy my guy by calling laura croft steroid barbie. it frustrates me that female superheros in general have such perfect bodies. i remember thinking when i was a kid that i couldn't be a superhero - not becuase they weren't real- but because i didn't look like one.
some days it annoys me enough that i avoid all person based video games. which is why i have 100 percent completed all three spyro the dragon games....

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angelicmadrigal
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I belong to a gaming society here in ohio. WE play video games, table top role playing games, and strategy games. Being one of the 4 females out of 20 or so members I've found that nearly 95% of these games are geared towards guys, because they are realistically the largest market for gaming.

Many of these games say "Vampire the Masquerade", "Resident Evil", "Risk", etc... offer little appeal to MOST females. In addition they are NOT for children.

However, the truth is children do get a hold of these games and sometimes manage to screw up there young psyches, and some of the more realistically chalanged adults do so too.

I PERSONALLY am able to overlook the sexism in most games out there and even make fun of some of them (like Laura Croft). For example Final Fantasy animation is often SOOO beautful I am often able to overlook the sexist flaws, because it's not what i'm foucsing on.

Table tp roleplaying games often have certain types of characters that will appeal to females. In "Vampire" the less aggressive, guilt ridden, vampire is often geared towards females. However, it is more custumizable and easy to break streotypes in this type of game. So for those of you tired of the video sexism I'd suggest table top roleplaying.


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looksthatkill
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Well, for non-objectified heroines in video games, we have:

Amy Rose (Sonic The Hedgehog series 1992-present)

Cream The Rabbit (Sonic The Hedgehog series 1999-present)

Rouge The Bat (Sonic The Hedgehog series 1999-present)

Samus Aran (Metroid series)

[This message has been edited by looksthatkill (edited 12-20-2004).]


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Sapph
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Haha...Steroid Barbie...Rin, thats cute...I think i'll start calling her that...lol. Anyways, im gonna have to agree with what pretty much everybody else is saying here: I wish they would tone down the games! Honestly, killing ppl for money? Being able to fight fantastically with 36FF breasts and in skintight cloths? I'm not saying games should be exactly like real life (how boring would THAT be?) but games also need to be believeable-to a degree. Harry Potter wasnt quite beleiveable, but it was alot more entertainging than "kill people for money games" Anyways, i should probably shut up before i offend someone, so cheers all! im out. ~Sapph
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KCallahan
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Hmm... My experience with Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball is perfect for this discussion. I happen to have that game, because my roommates put it on our common-use xbox. You have female stereotypes out the wazoo. You have scantily clad big busted women that play beach volleyball or hop around a pool. What else can you do in the game? Well, the gambling isn't gender spcified, and that has its own problems, but the others are female sterotypes as well, although not all are objectification. You can shop, shop, shop, or shop. Lots of different shopping. Trying on different clothes, putting flowers in your hair, eating chocolate, bying presents for other characters.... Now I love shopping as much as the next girl, but come now, five different types of shopping? If that was a tactic to concede to some sort of female demand, it was a poor one. I don't think it was. Indeed, I think it was rather part of the true targeting of the intended audience - teenage and college age guys.

Most video games these days are intended for that audience. Nevermind I know plenty of girl gamers and plenty of guys who hate video games. I myself am fairly stereotypical in the sense that I'd rather do something more "feminine" than play video games, but I still play games now and again, especially when I have friends over.

And the idea of a "girl-friendly" anything is just adding to the problem, not aiding the solution. The very concept shoves girls back into the box we've been trying to get out of for years.


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Djynnjah
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I've been a gamer for a good while and though I lean mostly towards RPGs and Action Adventure games (Final Fantasy etc) I'll dip into anything except maybe first person shooters (they bore me - change the scene, the monsters and the guns but it's still the same old game). I love a good fight game and while I like puzzles, action is good too.

A videogame heroine's clothes are more likely to get me ticked off than any actual physical attributes. I know the character herself can't help looking the way the designers decided would best tap the market, but some of the outfits these girls have to fight in are just unbelievable. Even massive breasts might not keep a girl from flipping around if they're well-supported, but some of these outfits...they must be stuck on with super glue. There have been times I've looked and just not found the strings I know should be there somewhere. Seriously, if you're going to fight dragons and orcs, common sense says cover up.

On the other hand, I have found myself picking up games because the guy on the cover was hot. FFX, Castlvania: Lament of Innocence, both new Prince of Persia games...I was completely enthralled when the Prince started stripping in the Sands of Time. I frequent several gaming sites and forums and there is a lot of traffic from female gamers discussing who's hot. There may not be a straight woman's equivalent of Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball yet, but the sexual appeal factor of videogame characters goes both ways.


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KrAzY_KaRl
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Im so sick of the way the media sterotypes things

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LtHoL
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I'd like to point out that most video games DO handle their female characters very tastfully

Exceptions been; Final Fantasy X-2 (aka see how little we can get the characters to wear while making them complete bimbo's)

Grand Theft Auto, where the missions include finding the right vibrator for your girlfriend)

I'm an avid gamer and i support having pretty girls as supporting/main characters in games and as long as they don't go over the top.

(IE breasts bigger than their heads or wearing so little it leaves nothing to the imagination.)

As long as the girls are handled tastefully and aren't 'slutty' i will whole-heartedly support this issue.

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Heleo_Fist
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Personally I just play the game for the game, but I also think that the parts are quite exadgerated which to some is good but to others is pretty bad it depends on which side you look at it from really.

(note shiva has been in the final fantasy series from FFIV)

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Djuna
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Generally I find that huge breasts / muscles / whatever else you kids come up with these days [Smile] on video games come across as funny, not sexist.
quote:
caricature, n: portrayal of a person with exaggeration of physical features for humourous effect.
Because you just can't beat the dictionary. It's awesome.

[ 09-10-2006, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: smileyjoseph ]

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Ben1980
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quote:
The bad news is that they are usually highly sexualized.
I'm trying to figure out who this is bad news to? Bad news to girls? or guys? I'm sure feminist activists dont like it? The fact is that the majority of video game players (vast majority of pubescent males)loves this fact. So do the marketing companies who sell them. Maybe if we had more female gamers out there this would start to shift both ways a little.

quote:
To be fair, the men in video games are usually quite unrealistic as well.

Fair? Heck, if I'm playing a beat-em-up bashing video game character, he better have bulging muscles and an unrealistic figure. Along with some super-powers and other things that are unrealistic.

In my opinion, this boils down to the fact that the people who actually play games dont really mind this stuff. The people who dont always seem to have a problem with it. *shrug*

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Heather
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Did you read the responses in this thread?

Because they are mostly from gamers, and often from women who game, stating that some of them DO have a problem with it.

And it's a pretty circular argument to state that gaming would be more female-friendly if more women gamed, when a big reason why a lot of women don't is because plenty have a difficult time finding games that are female-friendly.

As well, you might want to consider that a male character having big muscles that are unrealistic sends a different messages: his muscles (ostensibly) help him win the game and be more powerful. The same cannot be said of a female characters DD breasts. (As a boxer, I can tell you easily that breasts REALLY don't help IRL. They hinder.)

And FYI? Feminist women game, too. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

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Ben1980
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Heather,

No offense, but I thought this website was created for discussion of these topics on an un-biased level.

quote:
The same cannot be said of a female characters DD breasts
Ok, I guess you are referring to Tomb Raider or something. Yes, yes I know. Some games can be over done. They do that on purpose for a few reasons. One is to get young boys during puberty to want to play it, and maybe the other is to cause controversy and get publicity from people like you [Smile] (no offense) I dont think it's necissary for females in video games to be portrayed in an overly exaggerated manner, but I hardly feel it is an issue of gender rights or as deep as that. 90 percent of the programmers that created that game are probably male too, and if they made it, they decide...

I am an avid gamer. I have played games since my dad had a Commodore 64 back before Atari. I have seen them evolve. I've seen who plays them. I have been there the whole time watching and playing. You say that there would be more female gamers if games were more female-friendly? I disagree with that statement and think the reverse is true. The game developers respond to public demand, they dont create new subscriber bases that cater to different genders to spice th ings up. They do what makes them money.

Look at Japan or Korea for instance. Their culture is more fully aquainted with video games. Females and males play games equally there, as well as more adults play video games. They play them due to interest associated with their culture and society. The games in Japan and Korea are very diverse and cater to both genders as well as younger and older players. Many of those games who cater to females in Japan never get translated or shipped to America because there is no market for them in America. It almost seems there may be actually more titles that are attractive to females rather than males in Asia.

This is not the case in America. Even more so in some parts of the country than others. Where I live in southeast America, it is hard to find a girl who doesn't think video games are "silly" or "pointless" more or less would be much of an avid gamer. Believe it or not I am probably more disappointed at this fact than you. I would love to see more female gamers, as I think it's great. I have always felt like finding one was like finding a needle in a haystack.

The whole "if they change, then we could change" attitude regarding games is somewhat valid and looks good on paper, but I dont think it will end up working that way. When our culture accepts video games into our lives in a more free way, and people start showing interest in all levels, then we will see a boom of diversity. Mostly I just see the media bashing them for violence and using them as an "excuse" for kids slacking off.If the female gaming population boosts, I'm sure their marketing companies will notice that most of the titles that cater to females are selling out so they would beef up the industry to accomodate. I mainly see games created for males age 13 - 28 with the exception of some few great titles that cater to anyone.

One of my ex-girlfriends said she hated video games, then I got her hooked on Final Fantasy 7 and she loved it. On the other hand I currently play an MMORPG (massive multiplayer online role-playing game) and it's a big hobby of mine. We have a 70 year old woman and her 32 year old daughter who play in our guild. I think it's great. My current girlfriend isn't interested in games but she supports me fully in them. Regardless if more "gender-catering" games are released there will always be "overly sexualized women" and "beefy muscle dudes". Always....

But, that's just my OPINION.....

[ 10-04-2006, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Ben1980 ]

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Heather
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My partner's day job is in high-level marketing for one of the biggest and olding gaming companies there is, so I'm pretty well-versed in how male-dominated a field it is from the creative end, to what gender (and what denominator of that gender) it is marketed, and the lot.

I'm not sure why you're talking about bias in this context per the forum here. What bias are you seeing, beyond the biases this topic is ABOUT?

One thing to think about is that there are compelling reasons to be critical of the way women are presented -- especially considered that we are the sex with less power and agency as a class -- even if the presentation IS intended to be mostly for young men, and again, this leads back to what was being asked in the initial post. If women are presented as sexual objects to boys in their entertainment, how might that influence how they view women? What message does that send them about women?

As well, I think it's a given that yes, there are more boys than girls, and more men than women, who play video games, but I think it's simplistic and dismissive not to look at the obvious reasons why that might be, largely because of gender roles assigned both in the games themselves and how they're marketed, because of how male-domainted a field it can be, as well as cultural issues like the different permissions given to boys and girls per leisure time in general and how they spend it (consider, for instance, that for very little boys and girls, studies have shown that commericals during children's TV aimed at girls are almost primarily about appearance, while those aimed at boys tend to be about less passive pursuits), as well as the fact that when these things are primarily created by men, they don't have to answer to women in the same way (and obviously, when they are men who see women as sexual objects first or primarily, they are often bringing that to the table and perpetuating a cycle), et cetera.

quote:
Regardless if more "gender-catering" games are released there will always be "overly sexualized women" and "beefy muscle dudes". Always....
I think what you're overlooking, or not taking some extra steps to question, is both WHY that might be (especially given if that occurred, it would mean that the image of women being sold to them would still be male-defined, male-idealized, and same goes for the men in the games: since men are mostly writing the sterotypes, it's a different issue to type your own class than it is to type one of which you are not a member), and the fact that those approaches are very different when "beefiness" is contextually appropriate for characters who are supposed to be warriors, what have you, while female sexualization is a wholedifferent ball game (unless, I suppose -- and barf, I know --a female character gets extra points for all the male characters who want to have sex with her).

[ 10-04-2006, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]

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wobblyheadedjane
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Barring that there's really no such animal as an unbiased discussion, there are valid points that have been made here from both male and female gamers.

I game, I watch lots of Sci-fi and read comics books, and there are offerings out there that show that women can be portrayed in ways that are varied and positive - think of the differences between Inara, Kaylee and Zoe on Firefly, or Six, Callie and Starbuck on Battlestar Galactica. Both of these shows have an avid fanbase comprised of men and women, and didn't pander to stereotyping or lowest common denominator of skimpy clothes for their heroines. It's possible to do that, and both Firefly and BSG are/were developed by men, so it's bunk to say that "Well, men design/write/program these things, so that's how it is." It's not always the case, nor should it be, nor should we let it be the case because 'that's how it's always been.'

I don't think you're considering all the difficulties and hangups facing women in breaking out into something like game developing. Even now, biological determinism is still being used to tell women that they don't belong in math and sciences because they would need 'male brains' to accomplish anything there, in spite of studies showing that whole line of reasoning as faulty and fallacious. We get told that reading comics other than Archie, or playing video games aren't what 'nice girls do.' Or, instead of rich, multi-faceted women to play online, girl gamers get night elves that do sexy dances - most of the women I know playing World of Warcraft, for example, will play Tauren to escape the sexism that's consistently in our faces.

There's a lot more depth here than women just complaining that there's not enough out there for us - it's a matter of it being consistent, in every form of entertainment and media, that creators are often too lazy to use anything but the basest stereotypes and lowest common denominators to sell their product, often at the expense of women, and quite frankly a lot of us are sick of it.

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daria319
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See, I have a healthy appreciation for videogame heroines, mostly thanks to American McGee's Alice. In this one, she's going through the labyrinth of her own mind, trying to fight off her own demons, and salvage what sanity she has left -- in hopes of recovering. It's a deeply psychological game once you get past the whole hack and slash aspect. Alice turns out to be a BRUTAL fighter, and she's not overly "feminine". I mean, yes, she's in the classic blue dress and white pinafore, but with long,stringy, dark hair, a skull on her bow, and what I've affectionally dubbed 'asskicker boots'. This girl is dressed to kill, literally.

A man designed this game, as well as wrote the story it was based upon. I see American McGee's warping of a classic fairytale as a dose of reality -- Alice didn't live happily ever after. She didn't have her prince come rescue her. She endured hardships ALONE, and came through.

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Heather
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Yeah, and look at her. That is so not anybody's hoochie-mama. Plus, she's the lead.

Now see,something like THAT makes me wish I had, like, leisure time to play games, because I'd be all over that. Creative, interesting, and no extra points for killing prostitutes. [Smile]

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Ben1980
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I played McGee's Alice all the way through. It was great! Alice was definitely not stereotyped, she was not one to mess with!


Heather,

You made some great points. I also highly agree with you regarding the media and cultural biases that are associated with commercials, etc. forming the minds of children and young adults.

I guess what I was trying to convey is that it can be natural for men to want to sexualize women in a video game. It is similiar to a sexual fantasy despite it not being correct or it conveying the correct message. Many people play games to escape the realities of life, and that can include certain aspects of women or men. Look at pornography for instance. Porn in itself is very unrealistic. Yet many people seek in that an escape or fantasy away from the complications and realities associated with a real sex relationship. I also have found through research that men are stimulated more by visual sexual content than women are. (The majority of female gamers probably wouldn't care about seeing sexualized males, where as the majority of males would like to see sexualized females).

I feel that you are actually debating a much broader topic, which is how females are sexualized in society over males. This is not just limited to video-games as I am sure you are aware. It is something that society has formed inadvertedly. It is actually a world-wide issue, and we in America are affected by it probably the least amount. "Women as sexual objects" appears in many different cultures around the globe. I hate to say this because I know this will go against your views, but some women know that they are portrayed as sexual objects and they tend to use it for their gain regardless if they like it or not. Being a sexualized female in our society gives you a strong type of power over men even though it is ill-gotten or wrong. I don't want to send the wrong message, but it's true. And lately it seems like it has been worse than ever. In other cultures, historically females are portrayed as having more power over males because they control sex. Men, being mostly obsessed with spreading our seeds everywhere, must look to the female for our goals...

I feel that the statement below is biased:
quote:
The bad news is that they are usually highly sexualized
The thing I feel that we must remember is that it is okay for some people to feel differently, even if they are against your "grain" or views. If not, then it's not a true discussion, it is only a narrowed non-evasive way to influence others of your grand view...

[ 10-05-2006, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Ben1980 ]

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