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Author Topic: Thoughts on pink (the color)
sapphirecat
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Why is it that pink is feminine? Any pastel, including blue, could just as easily be socially feminized.

But then, looking at it again, why do we need a feminine color? To tie someone's appearance to their character traits (also socially constructed--for example, vulnerability)? To separate genders--to maintain inequality, keeping one group instantly identifiable from the other?

Is the construction of gender (in Western culture) part of a system to keep one sex subordinate to the other?

Am I crazy, or onto something? Or is this old news, and this is merely the first time I happened to think of it?

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twisted mister
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quote:
Originally posted by sapphirecat:
Why is it that pink is feminine? Any pastel, including blue, could just as easily be socially feminized.

I've actually read somewhere that a few hundred years ago it was the other way around - pink was a color for boys because it was a light red, and red was too fiery and powerful for girls to wear. go figure! you can politicize things every which way. (there's a really funny article by gloria steinem about what would happen if men menstruated, and it's all about how men would still rule the world because they'd say that obviously, women were too weak to rule because they didn't bleed every month, etc, etc)

quote:

But then, looking at it again, why do we need a feminine color? To tie someone's appearance to their character traits (also socially constructed--for example, vulnerability)? To separate genders--to maintain inequality, keeping one group instantly identifiable from the other?

Is the construction of gender (in Western culture) part of a system to keep one sex subordinate to the other?


actually, I think you're on to something in academia there's a branch of feminism called marxist or materialist feminism. it draws on marxist political philosophy and applies it to gender and feminism. thus, any system that divides people into disparate groups -- a class system -- creates a power imbalance. and in marxist feminist theory, gender is a class system, and women are the 'have nots.'

at least i think that's how it goes. it's a really interesting way to think about gender.


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Confused boy
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I would say that the more traditional Marxist view seems to make more sense in the Western world today. I mean, what is the main dividing line between people: gender or wealth? Whatever small points you come up with, the genders are now relatively equal.

Of course one of the few things that the Soviet Union got right was equality for women. I was listening to this rather touching account of an Afghan woman under the Soviet rule where she was a crane operator, a standard worker. Then under the Taliban she could hardly even leave her own house let alone have a normal job.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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BJadeT
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I heard that too Confused Boy! Was it on From Our Correspondent? Oh dear, Radio 4 listeners by the age of 16, it doesn't bode well at all .
I'm not entirely sure that everything was so lovely for women under the Soviet Union though. I've been reading a few personal accounts of life there recently and it was far from an equal society. But I can't think of any specific examples and it's completely off topic so I won't dwell on that.

As for the colour pink, what interests me is that it's OK for women to wear the traditionally male (at least in Western society) colour blue, but a man in a pink shirt raises a few eyebrows. I suppose that's a whole different issue really, how it's OK for women to adopt masculine characteristics, but not vice versa.

When mothers dress their baby daughters in pink frilly things, I don't think they're really out to mantain inequality and make social statements about vulnerability, I think they just wat to make it clear that their baby is female. Personally, I would say that's unecessary, but I can understand why people would do it.


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Confused boy
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Is there anything inherently iniquitous about the colour pink? It could represent the feminine but that doesnt mean it is at all derogatory. The colour pink only represents something weak if female is something weak after all. Which it isnt, shouldn't be and should never have been in the first place.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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indigodazed
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While I agree that genders are now fairly equal, gender is still a big issue.
When we see someone or meet someone, we have a tendancy to say "See that GIRL over there" or "I met a BOY named _____" We still define people by gender. And a lot of people still seem to have a heard time when people break from these steryotypical gender roles. For example, a straight friend of mine wears makeup (lipstick, nailpolish, eyeliner, etc.)
So people call him a fag. He is not gay or bisexual, as far as I know has never had any interest sexually in other males. But some people need to define everything and explain behaviors that seem odd to them. Therefore, he is a "fag".

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sapphirecat
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I can't speak for the whole world, but my girlfriend absolutely refuses to wear pink, precisely because of its association with femininity.

The book used in my ethics class went into the origins of "femininity" in some detail when it discussed the "ethics of care" and the difference between that and traditional "masculine" concepts of justice. The major question was a kind of chicken-and-egg problem: does femininity arise from some innate difference between men and women, or does society create definitions that men and women submit to?

If society casts pink as feminine, will wearing pink be perceived by those willing to take advantage of others as an acceptance of the rest of society's description of femininity, and an implicit invitation to actually take advantage of them?

Hmmm. To answer my own questions from my point of view:

There's some difference between the general tendencies of men and women, which were codeified into stereotypes--the idea of gender and gender roles, such as "women are sentimental". Submitting to the stereotype makes it much easier to exist in society, because the stereotype makes others "understand" without the need to spend time learning. Submission is also rewarded by reducing the need to repeat certain information to everyone. Lesbians who don't look like lesbians must repeatedly explain that they are lesbian.

Furthermore, the more people that submit to the stereotype, the harder it becomes to avoid submitting to it themselves: there are fewer people visible who would obviously support them. So it seems that once a stereotype is created, it reinforces itself.

In answer to the other question, experience says that those who take advantage of people don't really care what their victims wear; "she was asking for it" is more of a rationalization. After all, blame is better given than received.

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Sapphire Cat
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Daydreamer24
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I love pink. It's such a light and carefree color, and in my opinion anyone can like it.

Yeah, you're right. Typically, it's just that guys aren't "supposed to" like pink, but that's just trying to be macho. Who really knows why boys are associated with blue and girls pink? That's just how things are.

To me, it's old news. Whenever a baby is born, the parents are bombarded with blue onesies, bibs, toys, anything blue or any other "masculine" color. It's just the way things always have been, and it'll probably never change.

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link80
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I have pink hair.

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killer_raincoat
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i don't really look as pink as an unequalizer. Definately it's not a male color, at least not by most people's standards, but that doesn't mean it's a 'weak' color. i like the color pink, but i'm not a girly girl. it's just a color, like any other, and maybe someday men will be able to wear it without ridicule.

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"Everybody thinks i'm such a horrible person, but i have the heart of a little boy. In a jar. On my desk." -Stephen King


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unhappykoger
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just to say a few things about what has been said, i hate the color pink. the only way i would want pink on me is if it was my hair. when my daughter was small i did put pink on her though because i didnt like people asking me if she was a girl or a boy. and i put my son in blue. same reason. if you like the color pink, male or female, great. wear it. i dont care if you are male.
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Celtic Daisy
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I've never really been big with the colour pink. It's not for me, i like blues and greens and auqa's and stuff like that. I think it's sad the way colours define genders, but it's hard to change things like that, that society is used to.

*note* Hawksley Workman has been noted to wear pink shirts at a few of his concerts, and at the gay pride parade, but he's not gay. I think that's really good that someone, especially someone with minimal fame, is, accidently or purposly, changing views, at least for me.

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killer_raincoat
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Hawksley Workman does seem to be quite the revolutionary guy. I think as his fame builds, more people will realize and consider things more closely.

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"Everybody thinks i'm such a horrible person, but i have the heart of a little boy. In a jar. On my desk." -Stephen King


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Celtic Daisy
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Yes, things like soup, and the first snow of the year. hehe, but seriously, yeah, he makes some good points.

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"No self-respecting woman will let a naked man in socks do the squelchy with her'-Jeff Murdock
(Coupling, BBCC)

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TenohSetsuna
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>>I can't speak for the whole world, but my girlfriend absolutely refuses to wear pink, precisely because of its association with femininity.

You speak for me. I can't stand pink, even as just a color. Not only the whole "girly color" thing, but I also have a huge aversion to what I call the happy colors: yellow, red, orange, pink, and any pastels, though I like deep orange. They just get to me somehow. *shrug* It's kind of stupid, though, I think, to say "this is a guy's color and that's a girl's." Rather pointless.

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ErinK
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I read somewhere that at one time in some parts of Western culture, pink was considered a boy color and blue a girl color, especialy for babies/small children, but I need to do some more research before actually being able to prove that. Anyone else remember reading about this?

Erin


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ErinK
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Woohoo, actually found a link that helps back up my claim: http://histclo.hispeed.com/gender/col/col-pink.html

quote:
A woman's magazine in 1918
informed mothers, "There has been a great diversity of opinion on the subject, but the generally accepted rule is pink for the boy and blue for the girl. The reason is that pink being a more decided and stronger color is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is pertier for the girl.

If you look through that site, too, which is all about boys' clothes through time, you can see a lot of changes in what's "acceptable" fashion for boys -- including some boys in pink dresses.

I realize we were talking about the color and not just about boys and girls' clothing, but it's interesting for me to see that the pink/blue connotation hasn't always been the way we think it has been in some areas.

Erin


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insatiablesmiles
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i love pink.
i used to hate it. i am very much a tomboy, and for about the first 13 years of my life i used to insist i hated it, i would never wear it, and i wore a great deal of blue - blue of course being the 'opposite' of pink.
now, i just love it. bright pink is such a fabulous colour, baby pink is so cute, deep pink is just beautiful. and it suits me very well.
i want pink hair [call me a gwenabe, if ya want!]
it's a great colour.

-pandora
xxo
[posting a lot because putting off rather hard english essay...]

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badly_behaved_badger
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Hmmmmm...<thinking> I don't like light pink. I prefer bold colours. Bright pink is a bit too girly for me, it reminds me of barbies <cringe>. I once set fire to a barbie, but that's a whole different story!!!
*lotsa hugs from da bajjah*

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charming_girl
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Personally, I love the color pink. I know I'm probably making a generalization here but for me, it's the ideal feminine colour. I guess it's just expected that girls wear lighter/paler shades of colour than guys. I used to hate pink because I didn't want to be a girly girl... but then I realized that it shouldn't matter. But I guess it would depend on what shade of pink, a pale pink or a bright pink

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PinkElephants
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lol-well i think pink is a very masculine colour now coz of the aerosmith song-
pink is my new obsession
pink is not even a question
pink is the lips of your lover
coz pink is the love u discover
pink it was love at first sight
pink makes me turn out the light
pink gets me high as a kite
and i know we're gonna be alright
no matter what we do tonight

pink u can be my flamingo
pink is a new kind of lingo
etc.etc.etc.........


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Gumdrop Girl
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But think about who and what they're singing about in that song. It's essentially and ode to women. They talk about, "pink as the sheets that we lay on." And some oblique reference to women's genitalia that i can't remember at the moment.

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Color is for crayons, not for people.


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blaze_of_glory1985
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another question to ask is why is blue masculine,

I wear pink all the time, because i cate conventiality, i hate sexism, racism, everything like that as well.
I'm called Gay a lot, i wonder why this is?.....because i wear one colour...weird aint it


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sapphirecat
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Nobody's called me gay yet. I'm rather surprised, but I don't get very femme very often. It's just so eerie to interact with society that way. But I like my pink shirt

Ultimately, I think pink and blue were decided by cultural appointment.

And in my totally random way, going back to Confused Boy's comment in January... it's not necessarily pink and weak are associated, but that pink and femininity are associated. "Pink = Feminine" is part of a system of generalizations and stereotypes that dictate gender expression based on one's physical sex.

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Sapphire Cat
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Shenzie2007
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The other day I was shopping for a new shirt at Walmart and looking through both the girls' and guys' sections (I crossdress as a guy a lot.) Although I saw some pink and pastel shirts in the guys' section, there weren't many. And there were a lot of 'Princess' and 'Angel' shirts in the girls' section, yet no 'Prince' shirts in the guys' section. 9.9 What a pity.
On another note, I see girls wearing blue a lot. I think recently, it's become a more gender-neutral color. Yet pink is only seen on more adventurous guys. . . We're making progress though.

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When authorities warn you of the sinfulness of sex, there is an important lesson to be learned. Do not have sex with the authorities. -Matt Groening, Life In Hell
"Pope John Paul today confirmed his opposition to gay marriages. Said that they are unnatiral. Gay marriages are unnatural. Then he put on a pointy hat, his dress, and returned to never having sex at all." -- Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect


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indigodazed
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My mother never dressed my brother or I in blue and pink. She dressed me in other colors: green, yellow, and purple. And my brother wore those hand-me-downs.

My brother is very feminine in appearance, and I am often mistaken for a boy. When he was a baby, he was still mistaken for female most of the time: People would come up and tell my mom "Oh what a beautiful little girl!" and to me "You must big such a proud big brother!"


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NormalDancinGuy
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ya know i really dont understand whats so GIRLY about pink- i love the color and its so bright and just cool- i really dont think that it is considered so "girly". Eddie Bauer, Tommy, and Polo all have pink polo's and theyre cool looking.

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Claire
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pink is my fave colour. i love it. besides it makes my skin a nicer colour but blue looks just as good on me. my sister has a baby girl and she always wears blue, simply because it looks nicer on her cause shes got these fabulous blue eyes and im sure if she had a boy who looked better in pink she would dress him in pink.
but the whole story about in ancient times them dressing their children in opposite colours im pretty sure it had something to do with spirits.....
because they all wanted boy babies they figured that bad spirits wanted to take away their boys to make them unhappy and so they would dress their baby boys in pink to make it appear as if he was a she and so confuse the spirits. i think it was in Japan.
But yeah personally i do find pink on guys a little offputting.... it's just one of those things. if only we were dogs and colourblind... the issue wouldnt even exist

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CutiePie4eva
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OMG ... the wierdest thing happened... my little brother wanted to wear a red fleece and my father wouldnt let him because he felt that it looked like a girl's fleece... it was RED!?!?! i was like wtf...?

he decided that the red was too bright to be a boy's fleece... (hello!?!?! red is SUPPOSED to be bright... or else is called faided...) he said, "bright colors are what girls wear." so i replyed, "i know plenty of guys that wear bright colors: red, orange, yellow..." he just mumbled something and walked away... prob something about me talking back, but whatever.

he annoys me to no end with that! he's completely homophobic... my brother is practically forbidden from anything that is the slightest bit feminine. i have sheets with cartoon characters on them; i dont want to use them because i'm 16... i used them when i was around 8. my father refused to put them on my brother's bed becasue the little mermaid was on one of them.

i thought to myself, "yes... because his bed sheets will determine his sexual preference..." but if i said anything he'll give me a loooong speech about talking back, going against what he says, that people who are gay are this or that, blah blah blah... grrrr it annoys me so much!

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dont worrie b happie... its like a law! =)

hunt for clothes NOT for animals. =)


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Blue Roses
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I think pale pink is all right, but I really don't like bright pink, just because I generally don't like bright hot colours (in the artistic sense - hot colours are red, yellow, and orange; cold ones are blue, green, and purple), they just seem so glaring...I go through regular phases where I'm addicted to bright red, though. I also just plain don't look good in pastels.

A thought on why it's considered feminine - many floral depictions are pink, so it got associated with femininity? Though that may be a chicken-and-the-egg problem - if the world had worked out differently, we might have had blue floral patterns on girls' bedrooms.


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