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this category is sex basics and this is the most basic question of all. Okay, im 17 and im a virgin and I dont like that. Im not under any kind of peer pressure, Ive always been okay with being a virgin but Id like to try it. Also, I can say with confidence that all of my friends, male and female are having sex. some hae girl/boyfriends, some just sleep around. but i dont have the skill or looks to pick up a one night stand, and i dont have the looks or luck to get a girlfriend. the college i go to is full of girls that arent my type, either looks wise or personality wise. granted there are about 650 girls and i dont know all of them, but taking away the ones i do know and the ones with boyfriend and ones i dont like, and ones i my year youre only left with 100 or so, most of whom wont be my type or i wont be theirs, and besides its creepy to just randomly start talking to a girl i dont know. the thing is, id like to have a one night stand but i dont know how to get one, and id like a meaningful relatiship after a bit of sleeping around but i dont know how to get that either. most of my friends dont go to my college, they go to a private school, and they have many friends there. the girls there are much more my type, slutty, stoners, fun to be around, a bit bad but very pleasant and because i am friends with a couple of them they potentially have many single friends. but how do i ge to know them, and maybe get them to like me? nd if were at a party, how do i get them to sleep with me?
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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Okay, so, here's a radical idea you might consider:
Girls are people.
It's not really possible to generalize about people - there are upwards of six million of us and we are all different. But perhaps a starting approach might be to stop thinking of the women around you as potential targets (and pre-rejecting them ALL) and start seeing if perhaps you might, oh, HAVE A CONVERSATION. I assure you that walking up to a girl and randomly speaking to her is far less creepy than walking up to the same girl and trying (however it is that one tries without speaking) to get a one night stand started.
You're way ahead of yourself with the one night stand thing if you can't look around at the (650! not all taken) female people in your immediate environment and figure out how to talk to at least one of them.
Heterosexual intercourse carries the risk of pregnancy, and ANY partnered sexual activity carries the risk of STIs, and the development of emotional attachment. One-night stands are, therefore, risky and unpredictable, prone to lasting longer than expected and/or having a variety of troubling consequences.
Posts: 129 | From: Boston | Registered: Mar 2011
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trust me, the people in my college are either stuck up bastards or too goody goody, not my type whatsoever. and i only go for a one night stand at a party, where you can say hi to a girl because its a social situation. talking to a girl you dont know at a party is totally different to talking to a girl you dont know in the hallway
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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Evan: I think you might want to reread what Captain Girl said to you and see if you can't take it more to heart, especially considering your other post here.
It does sound like you're conceptualizing women in ways that are not only likely to be problematic for them, but which also clearly aren't working out very well for you, either.
Can I ask if you think you're seeing girls as whole people, people you might like to get to know for a host of reasons, not just for sex or to get what you want for yourself, or instead more as vehicles for your own needs, as people or things who either give you what you want or don't, react to you the way you want or don't? Do you know what I mean by that?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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i see girls as people, i have as many female friends as i do male friends. i am frinds with them because they are girls i want to be friends with, because they were sweet or friendly. some girls i wouldnt want to be friends with on account of their personality, but i would like to sleep with. is that so wrong? i think most males who arent in a relationship (and some who are) would look at a hot girl and want to sleep with her. it seems like youre incinuating that im a bad person for wantong casual sex, ike i objectify women just because i have a desire most men have. one night stands go both ways, dont make out like im a pig for wanting one because the girl has to want one as well for it to happen, its not like im a rapist
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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I think you're making some assumptions here that aren't sound. I have not had any thoughts that you are a rapist or a pig.
I don't put any value judgments on whether or not someone wants to have casual sex if and when that's something we and whoever else is involved also wants. The only place I was discussing those kinds of judgments was about the ones you are making here about the women who do. Sometimes when we make certain kinds of judgments, it's easy to assume others do, too. The thing is, we don't all do that. And you may want to figure that plenty of us have been at the receiving end of those kinds of judgments and have found it truly unpleasant.
Agreed: when two people BOTH have sexual desire for each other and both want to have casual sex, that's shared desire. Mind, that's not always present on all sides when people have any kind of sex, but it certainly can be. As well, sexual desires don't just belong to men. People of all genders can and do have them.
However, when you're calling women sluts or slutty, you have to know that's usually a derogatory term. And for sure, sometimes we will be attracted to people we don't like in other ways. But the way I hear you talking about sex doesn't sound to me like it really is about the other person and/or mutual desire. What I'm hearing is you talking about what it is YOU want, for yourself, and who you think might make it available to you, not so much who might earnestly desire to be in that with you. It can be a subtle distinction, but I think it's an important one. I also think it's smart to think about when we're making sexual choices and trying to make our best ones, whether that's about casual sex or sex in a serious relationship.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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By the by, if you come back round today and want to dig a bit deeper into some of this, I'm willing to do that with you. I think if we could, and if you could let go of snap judgments per your own assumptions or what you think I'm assuming, I think it's totally possible to forge some changes in the ways you're thinking and approaching sex and relationships that might really improve how you feel about them and how this is all going for you.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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im a little bit confused, i certainly dont judge people who have casual sex. and yes it is about me, no one has a one night stand for any other reason than for themselves what changes do you think i need to make?
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:no one has a one night stand for any other reason than for themselves
That's simply not true, if what you're suggesting is that casual sex is always or must be only about what each individual wants for themselves, without thinking of the other person.
Like I've said in all of your posts, I think you could really benefit from doing some pretty serious thinking about the way it sounds like you have been conceptualizing yourself, sex, women and yourself in relationship to the latter two. I know that's awfully broad, but there's just a lot you have said here that I think has a whole lot to do with why you feel so frustrated and socially isolated sexually.
Can you perhaps take some extra time to reread the responses I have left you already where I've talked about what I think you could stand to rethink? I've already said quite a lot about it, but so far, your responses have seemed more defensive than reflective. It's hard to really consider things when we're just reacting or assuming someone is attacking us who isn't.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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i dont mean to come off as defensive, im very apreciative of your advice but i think youre perhaps seeing something that isnt there, an i think youve got me all wrong
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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that doesn't sound like a very good reason to me. As a girl, I find that incredibly offensive that you think if you have sex once that girls will be all over you. They won't, trust me. You have to have a good personality besides having sex to get people to like you.
Posts: 11 | From: Texas | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Evan Smith: so i can look myself in the mirror and know i can get laid if i want
It doesn't work that way, Evan. Low self esteem will not automatically go away with an "achievement". If you did have sex, and looked in that mirror and told yourself "look at me, I am desirable. I can have sex if I want to", you would start back into the self-destructive loop. Did the girl just have pity on you? Was she faking an orgasm? Are you terrible in bed? Does having sex once really mean you can have it again?
I can guarantee that you won't get out of it what you hope to get out of it.
Also, I think you have a messed up idea of sex. It isn't "I can have sex if I want to" because that ignores the other half (or more) of the equation. It takes at least another person to have sex (unless you count masturbation as sex). That phrase should be rephrased as "I can have sex if I and this other person/people both/all want to". It's not sex if the other person (or people) is not consenting and involved in the activity. Sex isn't about one person and one person's desires. And even if you engage in sexual activity with another person, with this mindset, you will never be having sex for what it really is. Does that make sense?
Posts: 89 | From: United States | Registered: Sep 2010
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i never said that one i have sex once girls will be all over me, and i do have a good personality and what i meant is i would gain some confidence, because then id know that at least one girl in the world wants to sleep with me. anyway i dont think my reasons dont really matter
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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i never said that one i have sex once girls will be all over me, and i do have a good personality and what i meant is i would gain some confidence, because then id know that at least one girl in the world wants to sleep with me. anyway i dont think my reasons dont really matter
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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I think it's safe to say that, for any of us, our motivations for sex are going to matter in at least some ways. They'll certainly usually matter to us -- and again, obviously your motives matter to you, you've made that very clear, so you get that -- and will also often matter to the other person, though some may matter a lot, while others may matter little, depending on the person and what they uniquely want, need and are looking for.
To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, let me just toss out a list of some reasons a given person might have for choosing to have sex with someone else:
To try and get pregnant or cause a pregnancy (possibly without sharing that agenda with the other person and getting their agreement) To share mutual pleasure To try and get back at someone in some way To try and become closer to a partner To gain control over a partner or humiliate them in some way To explore their sexual feelings To prove to parents they're grown up To try and do themselves some kind of harm (possibly without telling the other person they're making them part of that) To try and make a partner feel good about themselves To try and make a partner feel bad about themselves
That's just a short list of the many, many varied motivations people can or might have. Looking at that list, can you see some that you think matter, maybe even some that might matter to you if you were the partner on the other end, positively or negatively?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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yes, many of those matter but i dont have a hidden agenda like that. i want to have sex for the sake of having sex. im doing it to feel good about myself, and i want to know how it feels. i wont impact negatively on the partner i have sex with.
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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I think Justin gave you some truly excellent, important feedback in your other thread, so be sure to take a look at that, okay? he says a lot of the same things I'd say.
But in regard to this, I'd suggest you think some more about this. You've said things like that you have no real intent of caring much about your partner or what their experience is like: I'd say that's one of those things that's going to matter a whole lot to many people, including in casual sex situations. I'd say that same about you just wanting to get things that are really only about you and not about them at all: more people than not, again, even when sex is casual, aren't cool with sleeping with people who are primarily self-centered when it comes to sex like that.
And when you're asking, in several of these threads, why it's been so hard for you to find a partner, one thing I'd propose is that your motives here probably have something to do with it. A lot of people can really pick up on when someone isn't really thinking about or considering them, but is primarily or solely self-focused, and tend not to want that in a sexual partner, for a bunch of reasons, including that sex with someone coming to it that way can feel emotionally or physically unsafe, but can also often result in a pretty lousy sexual experience that's just not worth someone's while.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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well ill take your advice and assume youre right on that one. in that case, what do i do to change that?
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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Well, for starters, I think you maybe think a lot more about the kinds of things that have been suggested to you in responses, and give them some more serious consideration.
Did you read Justin's great, long response to another one of your threads? He said a lot about working on your own confidence FIRST, rather than trying to seek out sex as a way to do that, which really is usually a losing strategy all around, where you a) don't usually wind up finding partners because your motives and self-image are a turnoff and b) even if you do, sex doesn't usually do what you think it will or may even make you feel more low.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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im sorry heather, i know this must be a pain but youre telling me i need to take some advice from other posts but i dont know what to specifically look for. the confidence thing was rather helpful and ive realised one or 2 things this last week. ive started feeling better about myself, and ive realised that a lot of 17 year old guys are virgins, i just dont know them. i dont need to have sex to prove im attractive or likable because i have many friends which proves im likable and although im not attractive having sex wont change that and many unnatractive people have sex, plus a penfriend from london tells me im cute so to some people i am attractive. what gets me the most is jealousy. im jealous i dont have the skill to pick up a girl like some of my friends, and im jealous of the ones who are in relationships because id love to have a sweet girl and im jealous of the ones who are single and dont care. people are telling me i have to get to know girls and work on myself, become more confident and do this and do that etc but why? isnt there a shortcut? i mean there must be, thats how casual sex exists. people who dont know each other having sex. theres no point in getting to know her, and she certainly doesnt need to find out what kind of person i am. sure character building is important for life, but there must be some quick and easy steps to just picking up a random girl at a party
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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You know, while conversations like this are certainly challenging, I think it's great that you're clearly pretty dedicated to talking and working these things out for yourself. I'm happy to keep trying to work through it with you.
I think it's also great you've managed to identify that some of what's going on here are feelings of jealousy. I wonder if it might not help to realize that someone who picks up a girl doesn't automatically have the experience I think you assume they do? In other words, you can connect with someone and have sex with them and have an awesome experience, a blah experience or a terrible experience. Just getting someone to a yes doesn't mean everyone wins or gets all they need. Do you know what I mean?
I don't think there's a shortcut like you're looking for, no. Sure, you might be able to trick someone into getting a different impression of you than how you actually feel, but I'm not down with that ethically. If and when we want casual sex, we can have it in ways that are ethical and where everyone involved connects with someone in the right headspace to be the kind of sexual partner where everyone involved has an experience they enjoy and feel good about, rather than have a terrible time with, regret or have other negative outcomes from. Once more with feeling: this isn't just about you. That's what masturbation is for, you know?
So I disagree that the framework you're setting up here is "how casual sex exists." I can see how you might see it that way, especially without having had any of these experiences, but can you maybe trust some of us who have when we tell you that's inaccurate or problematic, and certainly not ideal for everyone?
Again, I really want to keep reminding you that sex with a partner is something we make with them and things we share with them, not something we "get." And that doesn't have to be the roses-and-chocolates kind of make and share. It can be the super-casual, let's-just-have-some-fun kind, too. But even outside serious relationships, even in casual sex, sex has bits that are serious that if we dismiss, deny or refuse to deal with, someone usually gets hurt, and even when someone doesn't, it's a lot less likely for people to actually enjoy themselves and feel like both people involved treated the other like whole human beings.
And in some ways, that's an even bigger deal when we DON'T really know each other, because we don't have a history to fall back on.
(I also want to make sure in this that you're remembering you're a person who both can't get pregnant. Since you seem to be talking about intercourse with people who can, and condoms and birth control methods fail, you need to remember that on that issue alone, even casual sex is potentially a lot more serious for your potential partners than it is for you, since a pregnancy is more likely to derail their lives and bodies than yours, okay?)
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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Im not really bothered about how much experience they have. its about the fact that they have the ability to get women into bed. whether or not the sex is ood or not is irrelevant okay, so how can i ethically lose my virginity as quickly as possible
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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There's no answer to what you're asking, really.
I mean, ultimately? Frankly?
It seems the answer is that you can a) find someone else who feels the exact same way you do and just wants to get sex "over with" for themselves, too, b) find someone who sees having sex with you as something they likely won't get much out of for themselves, but as a way to help you out and who wants to do that, or c) you can just have the dumb luck of running into someone who wants to have sex at the same time you do and is either okay with it mostly being about you and not really being about them, or flat-out doesn't care about their own experience.
Are there people out there like any of those scenarios? There are. Are they fairly rare? They are. But would having sex in any of those scenarios be unethical? Ethics are fairly subjective, but if you're asking me, no, I don't think any of those scenarios are overall unethical or disrespectful of anyone else.
Like I said in your other post, though, I think you could really stand to take more of what we've said here to heart, including bearing in mind that when people approach sex like you are, they're very likely to get a no from others, on top of likely having a crap experience even if they get a yes.
But the no is a lot more likely, if for no other reason than the fact that it's not that hard to pick up on a vibe from someone who is coming to sex not caring about if it's good for you, who is just seeking to be personally validated, or is seeking sex like a hungry dog just looking for a bone, any bone. And for more people than not, none of those things tend to be turn-ons, and for many people, they're pretty huge turn-offs.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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To put what Heather said another way, Evan, part of what people assess when they're deciding whether to have sex with someone is whether that sex is likely to be enjoyable. That's not the only consideration, by any means, but it is a big one.
If a woman thinks that sex with you will be fun for her, she'll be more inclined to have sex with you. That's just a fact. And if anything, that question is probably more important in the world of casual sex, not less.
All of which means that your belief that "whether the sex is good or not is irrelevant" to convincing someone to have sex with you is a barrier to you finding a sexual partner. That's not just self-improvement advice, it's getting laid advice too.
Posts: 21 | From: New York | Registered: May 2011
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Okay, firt il respond th heather pity sex from a friend is something ive considered Oky, perhaps this is unethical but i was under the assumption that most one night stands happen when both parties are quite drunk. sure, yo sometimes get people who hit it off and have great chemistry together and then have a fabulous one night stand together, but what im relying on is the lack of inhibitions on the girls part. if i can find a girl who sleeps around, then perhaps if i just show a little interest, flirt etc then i can get her into bed that way. i mean lets face it. i mean, its amazing what a little alcohol does to ones morals
I agree there, I could study the karma sutra and i could meet a girl and have a fwb relationship, even if it just happens once but i dont want to do that for the same reason i dont want a girlfriend, i cant be bothered. i just want a drunken fumble with a stranger who ill hopefully never see again. i get that some girls have one night stands as their sex life, and know how to read men and therefore probably wouldnt pick a guy like me, but im not going to go for a girl like that.
And angus, how will she know the sex wont be good for her?
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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oops, my post appears to have deleted a large chunk of it. after i said lets face it there was this as well i mean lets face it, many people have unenjoyable one night stands, and while i wouldnt want to take advantage or a girl, i dont mind being regretted one of my friends is a real pick up artist, he cares about the girls experienc etc and is a very smooth talker. he gets the girls who like sex but dont want a relationship, girls who regularly have one night stands sober my other friend once had a one night stand despite having no skill or charm, the girl was kinda drunk and promiscuous, he just said hello to her and before you knew it they were having sex. im sure it was crap sex, im sue she doesnt remember him but thats the kind of sex i want. i essentially want the experience of going to a prostitute, without paying i.e i want to put as little effort in as possible
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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Evan: I'm off-duty from the boards today, so I'm only passing through. But there was something you put here I'm not comfortable just having sit. We can talk in more depth about it later this week if you like.
When two people are very very drunk, it's rare for sex to be able to even happen at all. In fact, as someone with a penis, you're likely to not even have real function when you're very wasted to be able to have intercourse in the first place. So, what happens more often is that a male person is NOT totally wasted, but a female person is, and when that's the case, that is not sex. That is rape.
That's also not about alcohol changing someone's morals. It's about it making to very difficult for people to think clearly, make the judgments they'd otherwise make, but also to see danger coming when it is, like someone trying to use your drunkenness for their own advantage, which is a crime, not something cute or funny.
quote:my other friend once had a one night stand despite having no skill or charm, the girl was kinda drunk and promiscuous, he just said hello to her and before you knew it they were having sex. im sure it was crap sex, im sue she doesnt remember him but thats the kind of sex i want. i essentially want the experience of going to a prostitute, without paying i.e i want to put as little effort in as possible
If in fact this girl was drunk, and worse still, so much so she has no memory of this event, and your friend was aware she was drunk and went ahead pursuing sex anyway, then what is most likely is that your friend raped this person.
The difference between sex and rape is consent, and full consent. There are many things that can make sex nonconsensual, and both legally and practically, someone being intoxicated is one of those things.
I'm pretty sure talking with you at some depth by now that you don't want to rape or otherwise sexually abuse anyone. I certainly hope not, anyway.
But even if that's a given, I'm hoping that on top of making sure that nowhere on these boards is it ever unclear to someone that no kind of sexual assault or abuse is ever okay, I'm also hoping some awareness around that might give you a little bit of a wakeup call.
Because if situations like these are really starting to appeal to you, and seem like the right thing to do, you've got to know -- I hope -- that it's time to sort some things in your head out, okay? Because if making a situation like that happens somehow seems like a good idea to you, or like whatever you think you would get out of it is so important that doing someone else harm would not matter to you, that's an indication of having some serious problems, problems that can do others very real harm but could also really ruin your own life and sense of self.
I think we've also made it clear by now that you keep coming back here with the same modus operandi, seeming to want us to basically tell you these kinds of approaches are somehow ethically okay. I hope by now it's clear that if that's what you want, you're not going to find that here. We're happy to help you as we can other ways, but we're not going to give anyone the green light to potentially do things we know often are and can be harmful to people.
Same goes for advising you on how to, basically, engage in sex in a way that really disregards someone else as a whole person; that disregards their humanity. You're not going to find us giving you or anyone else guidance on doing that here because we all know much too well -- some of us very personally and directly -- how much harm that can cause.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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quote:if i can find a girl who sleeps around, then perhaps if i just show a little interest, flirt etc then i can get her into bed that way. i mean lets face it. i mean, its amazing what a little alcohol does to ones morals
Are you implying that girls that sleep around are immoral, due to alcohol or otherwise? Does the fact that you want to sleep around make you immoral as well?
quote: Oky, perhaps this is unethical but i was under the assumption that most one night stands happen when both parties are quite drunk.
This has not been my experience. I've enjoyed casual sex, and like Heather says, usually if the guy is drunk he can't actually physically have intercourse. Sometimes I've had a couple drinks and the guy as well, sometimes neither of us has had anything. It really happens because we were both attracted to each other and wanted to enjoy some fun time together. I can pretty much tell you that based on your posts here you would be someone I would not continue things with. Whether you try to hide it or not I'm sure you still release vibes that show you have no interest in a girl/woman and her pleasure at all and that is a huge turnoff for most women. Women usually want to have sex to have fun, to have a good time. There is a higher risk to women than men due to pregnancy, etc, so it has to be WORTH it, otherwise why take the risk?
Posts: 819 | From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2009
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Hi Evan! You've been away for a little while before this post you made, so I want to check in and ask how you've been feeling lately?
I want to echo what Heather has said, though, too - if a sober or soberish person has sex with someone who's too drunk to consent or remember what's going on, that's rape. If a person plans to find someone that drunk to have sex with, they're planning to rape someone. I'm worried, because what you're saying here that you plan to do is basically to rape someone (although I trust that you don't think of it like that). That's not a good plan to have, it's not a plan we're going to give you any advice on, and when I hear about things like that actually happening it makes me physically nauseous, because in that situation there's a victim. That person - the person who's been raped - doesn't necessarily walk away and not remember anything, that person may suffer flashbacks and may need therapy.
To compare (and I apologise if thinking about this is upsetting for you), could you think about how you might feel about some guy (perhaps a guy like you) finding you drunk, and having sex with you, because your inhibitions had been lowered (which really just means you being too drunk to stop him or know what's going on)? That's sex that's unwanted, and it's what you're saying you plan to do to someone else.
Now, I want to be clear that from reading your posts for a while, I get the feeling that you're not a person who wants to rape or assault someone, or cause the kind of hurt I've described.
I do understand that growing up in UK society as a 17-year-old virgin, especially a straight male one (which is how I identified when I was 17), is made very difficult and there's a lot of pressure on us to "get it over with". But it's super important that you get that even if you're not fussed about your first time being fantastic, your first time *is* going to be with another human. At the very least, humans have the right not to be taken advantage of (that is, raped) when they're blacked out drunk, and they have the right not to be traumatised by strangers and left needing years of therapy.
-------------------- In a strange room, before you are emptied for sleep, what are you. And when you are filled with sleep you never were. I dont know what I am. I dont know if I am or not... how often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home. Posts: 1269 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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ive been okay, thanks, howre you? Well i agree, that is rape. I dont plan to rape someone, i plan to find a girl whos in controll of her faculties, but is willing to sleep with someone she wouldnt usually sleep with because shes a bit pissed. As ive said, I have no intention of raping someone, I intend to find a promiscuous girl who may be willing to sleep with me despite my looks and lack of charm because her inhibitions are well, inhibited. ive no intention of sleeping with a girl who doesnt or cant consent. but there is a reason most guys who want to get laid buy the girl a drink I dont feel much pressure to get it over with, id just quite like to is all
No im not saying casual sex is immoral im saying girls who wouldnt usually sleep around sometimes make exceptions when theyre a bit tipsy Ah exactly, youre attracted to each other. Now its fine for you, youre a woman and can get casual sex easily. For a man, you need to be attractive. Men like me arent attractive, butits funny how after a drink or two women find us a little more bearable and suddenly give us the time of day. and thats just the problem, once i have sex i can be safe in the knowledge that under some circumstances certain women will be attracted to me. thats why i dont care about the woman, because its not so much about the sexual experience for either of us. Id like to ask you what makes you want to have casual sex with a man, the pc answer would be how nice he is, whether hes fun etc but really i suspect its to do with money and looks
okay lets talk about it now heather
im sure neither of us would be evry very drunk. well thats the extreme end, on the other hand alcohol makes unnatractive people more attractive and makes girls a little more willing
as i said, she wouldnt be intoxicated, just buzzed
no i dont want to rape anyone
That sort of thing does not appeal to me and the thought of taking advantage of a girl disgusts me, but since i am the shy awkward virgin, when i approach a girl, any girl, i am in no position to take any kind of advantage. that said ill admit i made out with a friend when we were both extrememly drunk despite me knowintg it was wrong mostly because im friends with her boyfriend. bu frankly i didnt care, and i didnt the same thing again next week and id do it againn
Im not asking for that but with all the PUA books on the market i assumed someone would know some secret to getting a girl to sleep with me withoug having to go to therapy or go out with her for 6 months
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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As I have explained in another post of yours, if you are seeking out someone drinking on purpose with the aim of sex with them, when you know or strongly suspect the level of alcohol in their bodies is enough to have likely or absolutely altered their judgment, that is usually considered a crime in most areas. In other words, if someone is drunk enough that they would do something they would not choose to do sober, that is a clear indication they are too drunk to give meaningful consent.
The fact that, in your mind, this is something "most guys," do, or that is what the guys you hang out with are doing does not change the fact that that is often a crime and a sexual assault.
Again, that crime is typically called alcohol-facilitated sexual assault, and is a crime in the UK, as well as in other areas, like here in the States and in Canada. The language around that situation in UK law, specifically, is about "impairment." A person with that level of alcohol in their systems, to be in that place, is considered "impaired," and thus, unable to give meaningful consent.
As I have made clear, per both our guidelines and our boundaries here, as well as in the interest of having our space feel safe for everyone, including people who have survived sexual assaults and abuses and are here trying to heal from them, we WILL NOT discuss this with you further. I sincerely hope you decide not to make doing this your aim, but even if you do not change your mind on that, we will not be discussing it with you further. That is a boundary I am asking you to respect, and one you need to respect to continue posting here.
Here are some of the things you have brought up in this thread and one other which we CAN discuss with you and are willing to discuss with you:
Making sexual choices that are ethical, sound, and likely to have everyone involved staying safe and feeling good
How media/approaches like PUA is about sales (about what people will buy), not about sound ethics or even about what most people do and find successful in real life
Worries about sexual performance, and how to engage in sex with a partner who IS fully consenting and can fully consent in ways in which you likely WILL be a good partner to the and be part of an enjoyable experience, even without having had any previous sexual experience
How to improve your self-esteem so that you feel better about yourself and others are not so turned off by you
How to actually enjoy the process of getting to know someone, rather than seeing it as a hindrance in the way of the sex that you want
How to seek out social groups where you feel more like you fit for where you're at, rather than feeling behind everyone else
How to have and get real consent from someone 100% able to consent, including who is not drunk and also how to go about all of this without being drunk yourself
If you would like to talk with us about topics like that, we are glad to do that with you. Would you like to talk about any of those things?
If you don't want to talk about things like that, or with those approaches, and/or you still cannot respect the boundaries we have tried to set with you, then it's going to be time for us to set a hard limit and have you part ways with Scarleteen.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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as ive said, ive no intention of taking advantage of a girl anyway. but the following 4 things do interest me, especially the last one
Making sexual choices that are ethical, sound, and likely to have everyone involved staying safe and feeling good
How to improve your self-esteem so that you feel better about yourself and others are not so turned off by you
How to actually enjoy the process of getting to know someone, rather than seeing it as a hindrance in the way of the sex that you want
How to have and get real consent from someone 100% able to consent, including who is not drunk and also how to go about all of this without being drunk yourself
i dont think i feel like an outcast in my social group by the way, and although most of my friends frequently engage in casual sex none of them take advantage of girls
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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I said what I did about your friends because in your posts here, you have frequently expressed feeling out of step with them around sex; have expressed feeling the odd man out. Is that right?
You have also reported that you have at least one friend who has the habit of getting women drunk in order to have sex with them, which is abuse/assault.
I'm happy to help you with these four things. I think the cornerstone of at least two of them, if not all four, is really around consent.
So, what I'd like you to do is read through an article we have hear that outlines how to do consent well, then we can talk some more about it once you've those facts in hand, okay?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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my advice get better friends sorry but they don't sound the greatest. It sounds like because their doing stuff you want to be like them. And your 17 that's very young why are you so intent on losing your virginity?
Posts: 108 | From: Michigan | Registered: Apr 2009
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I don't think you have the right attitude about all this in my opinion. What if you regret a one night stand what if you want something more with this girl and she doesn't, then you will be crushed right? Are you even ready and willing to engage in sexual things little lone with a girl you are just going to meet? And I don't really like how your labeling the girls certain things at that school when you don't even know them. I don't know if casual sex will even make you happy.
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no thats untrue, i dont do things because i want to be like them. i know i wouldnt regret a one night stand, and it would make me happy i want to lose my virginity for several reasons -the pleasure of having sex -the feeling of knowing i could get a girl into bed, and knowing that she liked me even a little and found me slighly attractive. knowing that, like my friends, i am good enough to get laid those are the main two reasons other include -experience, so i can talk about it, boost my confidence with girls
heather-i have always thought i was the odd man out with any friends, its no secret i lack confidence and because of that i feel isolated, even though i know i am wel liked. also, i am the newest addition to this group of friends and no one likes feeling like the newbie. finally, i am one of the olny virgins in the group. they dont pick on me for this or anything, but i feel inadequate next to them. they can get a girl to sleep with them or go out with them like its nothing, yet i cant. they have something i dont, theyre better looking or girls like them more and thats what upsets me. girls will have sex with my friends but not one of them will sleep with me
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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If you go about having sex the way you've mentioned in this post, I can pretty much assure you that you will not get the first two things on that list.
If you are only 17 and your friends are of similar age, I highly doubt you are the only virgin. Unless you've actually seen these people having sex, you don't honestly know what kind of sex life anyone else has.
-------------------- ~Kat Scarleteen Volunteer
I never am really satisfied that I understand anything; because, understand it well as I may, my comprehension can only be an infinitesimal fraction of all I want to understand. - Ada Lovelace Posts: 819 | From: Seattle | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:heather-i have always thought i was the odd man out with any friends, its no secret i lack confidence and because of that i feel isolated, even though i know i am wel liked. also, i am the newest addition to this group of friends and no one likes feeling like the newbie. finally, i am one of the olny virgins in the group. they dont pick on me for this or anything, but i feel inadequate next to them. they can get a girl to sleep with them or go out with them like its nothing, yet i cant. they have something i dont, theyre better looking or girls like them more and thats what upsets me. girls will have sex with my friends but not one of them will sleep with me
So, Evan, I'm curious. How do you think you might feel in a social group where the perceived norms were very different than in this one?
In other words, if, in your social group, most or more people were not having sex or weren't saying they have sex all the time, what difference do you think that would make for you? Do you think that you'd feel less of the "odd man out," and feel like the pressure was less on to be sexual?
What about if those social group had more people in it who you felt looked like you do? How do you think that'd change how you've been feeling?
If those questions are tricky, before you connected with this social group, were you in any others were you felt like you belonged more, and where it felt more like others were more of where you're at? If so, how did you feel then about all of this?
Now comes the part where I'm going to be very real with you and ask what might be an uncomfortable question. Sometimes, some people will kind of play off of someone else to get what they want for themselves. For instance, it isn't unheard of for someone to hang out with someone else who, by virtue of something -- be it their behaviour, their social skills, the way they look -- makes that person look better to others, and so it gets even easier for them to get what they want by comparison. Some people do that on purpose, others don't realize they're doing that.
Like I said, I know that's a really uncomfortable possibility, but do you think something like that might be going on at all with you and some of the guys you're hanging out with?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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quote: the feeling of knowing i could get a girl into bed, and knowing that she liked me even a little and found me slighly attractive. knowing that, like my friends, i am good enough to get laid
So what it sounds like from here is, if you can convince a girl to sleep with you, that will mean that you're at least a little bit attractive. But if you can't/haven't done so, it appears to mean that no one finds you the slightest bit attractive at all.
This is not good logic.
It's not all happy magic out there in the Land of Sex, okay? Plenty of people have had sex and gone on to discover that their partners did not, in fact, like them at all, or find them the slightest bit attractive. People who just needed dinner, or a place to spend the night and thought that sex was the way to get it, or people who figured they could have some fun with their eyes shut. You're setting yourself up to be badly hurt.
You've said a couple of times that you want this experience so that you can talk about it, but you don't need to actually have sex in order to talk about having sex. Many, MANY conversations about sex contain a lot of fiction. I kind of want to tell you to go see "Easy A", and reevaluate the social concerns here.
Finally: Doing what everyone else does is often not a good way to be cool. Aside from the fact that it isn't guaranteed to work, it requires you to substitute your (possibly inaccurate) impression of the most usual behavioral judgment of a group of people for your own, independent assessment of what you want to do and why you want to do it.
Posts: 129 | From: Boston | Registered: Mar 2011
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@KatWA-Trust me, most of my friends have had sex. Most of them have girlfriends, or had them. And we go to a lot of parties, and ive seen them on several occasions making out with varios girls and going into rooms alone with them only to hear about how theyve had sex half an hour later. It also helps that the majority of my female friends are very promiscuous.
@Heather-I dot think Id feel any different. A year ago at the end of school I had no friends, so I started habging out with the nerdy kids. Even then I wantedto have sex badly, because I knew that most people were doing it. I dint hear about it first hand, but I overheard hings in class, especially drama class where I was the only guy mixed in ith 10 girls, all who loved talking about sex with various guys from school. There are virgins in my friendship group, one guy im mates with has only had a BJ and aside from me he is literally the only virgin in his group. I have some virgin friends but not many, maybe 4 or 5. It was 6 but then he went and got a girlfriend, who just so happens to be one of my closest friends. The thing is, most of my virgin friends dont care about sex or relationships or any of that, theyre more interested in other things, such as whiskey and music etc I dont think Im the ugliest in the group, guyes less attractive than me have ahd sex that I know, and I like hanging around in a group where there no conventionally attractive people, male or female. Honestly, no, because before this social group there wasnt really a social group. I had 3 friends in year 6, towards year 9 that grew to maybe 10 but we were all in school, we had nothing in common, we were just friends by cirumstance. With my new friends, I feel we have plenty in common. And some of the guys im friends with i was friends with in childhood. I guess at the end of year 11 when I was hanging with the 'losers', I felt more at home because I was a lose too. All we did was sit around at lunch playing cards, making jokes only wed get. I felt very at home, because they couldnt judge me. It was the first time I was the best looking and coolest in a group. But I didnt feel like I belonged ther and wasnt happy, so Ive found new friends Im happier with. No, honestly I dont believe my friends are doing that. My frends from college and I are very close, I know they wouldnt do that. And some of them Ive known since I was 2. I can tell when Im being used because Ive had it done to me a lot, and I know these guys arent doing that. Initially my mum worried about that, because she wasnt used to the prospect of me having friends and was very protective but now she knows them she can testify Im not being used
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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@CaptainGirl-I think that is logical. I mean, if most guys I know are having sex, and personality wise Im a lot like those guys, it must be my looks that keep me a virgin. And even if it isnt my looks, its my personality then. I have an awfl personality. Or itsmy approach, I have an awful approach. It doesnt matter ether way, because right now Ive never had sex and I dont know why, but it certainly isnt out of choice. Its not that hard to come by, most guys are having it, its only really me and a few other in my group that cant get it, whats wrong with us? why wont girls sleep with us?
Those are extreem circumstances, generally if a girl has sex with a guy at a party or after dating him a few weeks she likes him and finds him attractive.
Seen that film, like it a lot.
I dont want to lie about any experiences, mostly because no one would believe me anyway But when im talking tomy friends and theyre like 'I had sex with ____ last night' 'I pulled that ___ lass at that party the other night' itd be nice if i could say 'I once had sex with___' or 'I finally lost my virgiity to ____ a few days ago'
But the conversation is a small reason. The main 2 reasons are for the fun of having it and because I want to feel like Im good enough. Im not doing it to be cool. I dont care about being cool, even if none o my friends were having sex (like in year 11) i would still want it because, and ill say this in capitals so you get it MOST PEOPLE CAN GET LAID I CANT GET LAID WHY CANT I GET LAID? SOMETHING WRONG WITH MY LOOKS, MY PERSONALITY? *CONFIDENCE=LOWERED
but then if I do have sex
I HAD SEX A GIRL LIKED ME, EVEN A LITTLE SHE LIKED ME ENOUGH TO HAVE SEX WITH ME PROBABLY FOUND ME A LITTLE ATTRACTIVE TOO *CONFIDENCE=INCREASED
please dont question my reasons, anything you say wont change my opinion. The fact of the matter is, you must know how frustrating it is when you try your best to accomplish something but fail miserably. Its even worse when most people succeed sometimes when you fail everytime
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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hahaha oh the irony, one of those guys i used to hang out with lost his virginity yesterday XD if i didnt laugh id cry....even he can get laid yet i cant
wow that sounded a lot less mean in my head :/
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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What was his story with that, if it's okay to share? In other words, how does it seem that happened for him?
And what is it about him that makes him an "even him" to you? In other words, it sounds like you're suggesting there's something that makes him "unworthy" (for lack of a better word) of engaging in sex. If I have that right, what is it that gives you that sense?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63425 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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Evan, a lot of us -- in this thread and others -- have given you a range of answers to your "why can't I get laid" question, and offered a variety of suggestions about things you could try. You've mostly brushed those answers and suggestions off.
To me it doesn't seem so much that you're looking for advice as that you're trying to justify the approach to sex that you've got, an approach that you yourself can see isn't bringing you the results you want.
I'm honestly having a hard time understanding why that is.
Posts: 21 | From: New York | Registered: May 2011
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im having a hard time understanding too angus, if you recap some of the advice ive supposedly brushed off id be happy to explain why i did so, or give it another chance.
Not really a very interesting story, hes an unpopular guy who no one really likes or is attracted too, so he asked out an unpopular girl who no one really likes or is attracted too and they had sex. Its not that I think hes unworthy, Im very happy for him, I remember when we were good friends. I guess Im just kinda downhearted that it seems like just about everyone is having sex, not just the popular and attractive, but everyone. It seems like Im the only person who doesnt, and never has had someone. And I guess I said even him because looking at the guy, hes not the type of person youd expect to be having sex. Hes not very good looking, doesnt take care of his appearance, not prticularly outgoing or confident, not very exiting or interesting. Most people were suprised he had had sex because he was the kind of person you could imagine being a 40 year old virgin. Obviously hes entitled to have sex, but its depressing when a guy considered to be at the bottom of the social ladder can have more sex than you.
Posts: 82 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2011
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Too much there to summarize quickly, but it'd be well worth re-reading.
And earlier in the thread we're in now, I offered the following:
quote: If a woman thinks that sex with you will be fun for her, she'll be more inclined to have sex with you. That's just a fact. And if anything, that question is probably more important in the world of casual sex, not less.
All of which means that your belief that "whether the sex is good or not is irrelevant" to convincing someone to have sex with you is a barrier to you finding a sexual partner. That's not just self-improvement advice, it's getting laid advice too.
Nobody wants to be the person some random person loses their virginity to. What most often makes people want to have sex is a sense of connection. It may be a friendship connection, a sexual attraction connection, an "electricity" connection, or something else, but it's generally personal and individual -- even in a one-night stand.
I get the strong impression that you're having trouble making those kinds of connections with women, and that if you took a bit of a breather from pursuing sex -- some sex, any sex, with anyone who'd agree to it -- you might find those connections easier to make.
Posts: 21 | From: New York | Registered: May 2011
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I'm having a really hard time with what you're saying here Evan.
quote:Originally posted by Evan: Its not that I think hes unworthy, Im very happy for him, I remember when we were good friends. I guess Im just kinda downhearted that it seems like just about everyone is having sex, not just the popular and attractive, but everyone. It seems like Im the only person who doesnt, and never has had someone. And I guess I said even him because looking at the guy, hes not the type of person youd expect to be having sex. Hes not very good looking, doesnt take care of his appearance, not prticularly outgoing or confident, not very exiting or interesting. Most people were suprised he had had sex because he was the kind of person you could imagine being a 40 year old virgin. Obviously hes entitled to have sex, but its depressing when a guy considered to be at the bottom of the social ladder can have more sex than you.
You seem to have set in your mind some prototype of who has sex and who doesn't. That in and of itself isn't going to get you very far. There's not one perfect set line of who is having sex and who is not. You want to lump people into categories and it doesn't work that way.
So you and some others don't find him interesting, attractive, whatever - doesn't mean that nobody will. People are attracted to others for a WHOLE host of reasons, and those don't need to be understood by anyone else. I see you saying "popular, attractive" but who whose standards are you using? People of different ages, orientations, gender identities, looks, sizes, shapes, backgrounds have sex. There's not an A and B category.
Too? You're going by who you think "should" be having sex and trying to decide who would be the "40 year old virgin" (which... might I add... is a movie and fictitious) makes it seem like you see him as not as good as someone else - but nobody asked you to take this person as a sexual partner, so I'm left wondering why you're so hung up on who is having sex, and I think what Angus said above is very valid too.
-------------------- "Sometimes the majority only means that all the fools are on the same side" ~Anon Posts: 3365 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Evan: Not really a very interesting story, hes an unpopular guy who no one really likes or is attracted too, so he asked out an unpopular girl who no one really likes or is attracted too and they had sex.
I can't decide whether I think this is a happy story or a sad one.
It could be that your friend, nice if not particularly dashing, looked around him and saw something in this girl that no one else saw, and she saw something interesting in him, and they had a wonderful time.
Or it could be that your friend, desperate and willing to be manipulative, selected someone he saw as an easy target and bullied her into having sex.
The likely truth is somewhere in between. The ongoing sense that you think the second scenario is a happy ending is depressing.
I agree with Angus that it would be a good idea to shift your focus.
Posts: 129 | From: Boston | Registered: Mar 2011
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