Donate Now
  New Poll  
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sex Basics and Sexual Health » Teens did you do this?

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Teens did you do this?
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 5 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have posted this question before but I would also like to post it here,as well. Hopefully I can get some of the teens oppinions as well as the sexperts oppinion (from the other post)...Im open for all the advice/input I can get.

I have a 10 year old daughter; who has not begun puberty (in any way)physically
she has had an encounter with a neighbor boy. I don’t know if this should be treated as innocent sexual exploration or an actual attempt at intercourse, I don’t want to over-react (which I may have already done) Please tell me what you think!
This is the situation.
1st time, it was show me yours I will show you mine...outside behind the garage in broad daylight. I was more shocked than angry. I spoke to her intelligently and tried to make her understand that this wasn’t acceptable behavior...

I took a text book approach to it, as I didn’t want to scare her out of telling me about any future situations....or scare her into trying more.

Ok...now 4 mo.s later, she has "done it" again...this time it was pants pulled down private to private touching/humping (no penetration) w/the same boy. I was livid, angry; I seriously spanked her and grounded her.

I’m trying to understand why she did this? is it normal childhood interest? Do most kids engage in some sort of exploration like this? Should I get her counseling? Please help.
Thanks very concerned_momma


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
happy*little*me
Neophyte
Member # 26329

Icon 10 posted      Profile for happy*little*me     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does your daughter know what sex is? from what I have gleaned from personal experience and from reading this site, I know that sexuality isn't the result of puberty, it is simply something human. In one posting in particular, Mz Scarlet wrote about how children she taught who were in kindergarden would often engage in forms of masturbation during naptime.

i think that your daughter should be informed about sex, so that she can understand what it means and why you are angry with her. to her, it might just feel like the 'natural' thing to do, so she probably won't understand why it would get you angry. also, just getting angry at the behavior will only cause her problems in the future (in my opinion) since it could make her feel guilty about sex and attraction.


Posts: 23 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm going to answer here, since a) our policy is not to allow double-posting and b) seems like some broader discussion may be more of what you want.

Ten is a little bit late on the developmental curve for basic genital curiosity, for what we think of as "childlike" curiosity in that regard. That "I'll show you mine..." kind of behaviour tends to be more like 4 - 8ish in most children, so that's curious.

Spanking and grounding strikes me as pretty extreme here (but mind you, I personally don't support any sort of corporal punishment, so), especially if you haven't previously just TALKED with her about this situation, in detail, stuff before: about personal boundaries, about sexual/body safety, about what's appropriate, etc. Can I ask what your history in rearing her has been per discussions of genitals and sexuality?

------------------
Heather Corinna
Editor & Founder, Scarleteen
ST blogabout Heather & Scarleteen
I have come to learn that that which is most important to me must be spoken. - Audre Lorde

[This message has been edited by Miz Scarlet (edited 01-30-2006).]


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 10 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have spoken to her about sexuality at different ages to diff degrees, expl. when she was two or three: It was big girls don’t let any body see what’s in your panties. If she was away with other family members I was always cautious to ask ….who helped her wipe etc, not that I expected any molestation or anything just felt it my duty to keep it in mind.

5 or 6yrs: It was more like this is your private area...make sure you tell mommy if anyone ever tries this or that...etc. and about personal space.

7 or 8yrs: I told her a bit more about periods, I told her what my Pads were for, explained to her still in child like terms that all women need them starting around age 10-12yrs, when they are still little girls until they had their babies and were about grandmas age….(keep in mind she was no older than 8)I told her they were needed because of changes in the body that only happen to girls and not boys…I was not very graphic.

After the first incident (age 9) I sat her down like I said in the first post, kind of text book using real terms, I explained to her why it was wrong why I didn’t want her doing it, ( I said things like its for grown ups) I aked If any one had ever done that to her before, I told her what sex was and some of the consequences sex, I told her why the boys “doing it” were at school laughing about it with friends and why she felt embarassed due to what the boy told...and all that entails, (a little about sexism/double standars with men women)I thought I did a good job, but obviously not.

After this latest time, at first! I was much harsher, 1). was upset that she disobeyed me, 2). the acctual actions she took. 3).I didn’t know if this was a precursor to promiscuity or if it was innocent, So I was very upset and I feel that I overeacted, now that its all said and done.
THis time my explanation went into more detail about pregnancy pre ejaculatory fluids, boys erections, oral sex and letting a boy inside your body, the reasons why grown ups have sex and that it was only for those 21 and over who are either in love or married….as she gets older I may change that to a more realistic age!but for now at ten....21 is fine.
I am paraphrasing of course but I think this is a pretty accurate picture.

[This message has been edited by concerned_momma (edited 01-30-2006).]

[This message has been edited by concerned_momma (edited 01-30-2006).]


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lostxxtears
Neophyte
Member # 26242

Icon 10 posted      Profile for lostxxtears     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm 18 and I didn't have sex until november of last year for the first time. Personally I think thats wrong because she's 10 already I have a younger brother and found out he knew quite a bit about sex when he was 11. Kids know a lot more and do things a lot younger now, sadly. A lot of my friends said their first time was in 7th grade which I think is absurd. Let her know what can come from that like diseases and pregnancy. Tell her she has to be emotionally ready for it and be prepared for the consequences of sex. Kids are having sex way too young and a lot seem to think they're immune from diseases and pregnancy make sure she knows thats not true. My school did a blood drive a while back and almost half of the donations couldnt be used because they were HIV positive and im sure a lot of them don't even know they have it.
You do need to get her to stop but don't go crazy as you said when you do it because she might just try to rebel. You have to remember in the end its her who decides whether she does it or not..just give her the information to make a good decision.

Remember that's only my opinion on it anyways I didn't have parents telling me not to do it or explain anything about it to me..but I found out the dangers of sex from sites like this and I waited until I was ready because I think sex is something that you should only share with someone you love and I want to be with one person only, maybe you should try saying something like that. Anyways good luck with your daughter.


Posts: 23 | From: Arizona | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
nmfsoma
Neophyte
Member # 27281

Icon 10 posted      Profile for nmfsoma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by concerned_momma:
I have posted this question before but I would also like to post it here,as well. Hopefully I can get some of the teens oppinions as well as the sexperts oppinion (from the other post)...Im open for all the advice/input I can get.

I have a 10 year old daughter; who has not begun puberty (in any way)physically
she has had an encounter with a neighbor boy. I don’t know if this should be treated as innocent sexual exploration or an actual attempt at intercourse, I don’t want to over-react (which I may have already done) Please tell me what you think!
This is the situation.
1st time, it was show me yours I will show you mine...outside behind the garage in broad daylight. I was more shocked than angry. I spoke to her intelligently and tried to make her understand that this wasn’t acceptable behavior...

I took a text book approach to it, as I didn’t want to scare her out of telling me about any future situations....or scare her into trying more.

Ok...now 4 mo.s later, she has "done it" again...this time it was pants pulled down private to private touching/humping (no penetration) w/the same boy. I was livid, angry; I seriously spanked her and grounded her.

I’m trying to understand why she did this? is it normal childhood interest? Do most kids engage in some sort of exploration like this? Should I get her counseling? Please help.
Thanks very concerned_momma



my opinion at least is that well, the show me yours, show you mine thing is natural, i know i did that. The last part is a bit overdoing it, but as long as you let her know that what she did isn't okay now...

I think you should talk about it, because if she associates the pain of spanking with something as natural as sexuality then a pavlovian response could be thrown into motion (because the pain and pleasure are such polar opposites, and extremity forms a pavlovian response MUCH faster) and she may later connect pain with sex, and thus not be content during intercourse... i'm not saying what you did was wrong, per se, but that you should try to correct it as soon as possible... i myself would have hit the neighbor boy (just kidding)


Posts: 4 | From: batavia, Illinois, USA | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gwaihir
Activist
Member # 27276

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Gwaihir     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hmm. . .other posters have said almost all that I was going to say. . .but anyway, I would talk to your daughter rather than spanking and grounding (I don't believe in corporal punishment either) and ask her why she was doing it but I think it might be important to ask her if she had actually wanted to do it. . .it's just, I hear stories from people who were molested at young ages by boys (or girls) who were about the same age as they were.
And yes, it is a good idea to inform her about sex especially pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease, but don't scare her or make it sound like sex is filthy and wrong because of its risks.
As per explaining sex to her. .I would be as open and honest as I could and not try to dumb it down for her, and if there's something she doesn't understand I'd explain it as best I could. (because frankly, only people over 21 who love each or married have sex just plain isn't true.)
If your daughter grows up and decides she wants to be promiscuous that's really her call, since it's her body. I think the best that can be done whether she wants to have sex with a hundred people or just one for the rest of her life, is to make sure she knows everything she can possibly learn about how to keep herself safe physically and emotionally.

Posts: 159 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gwaihir brought up something very much worth touching on here. Sometimes, we don't even realize the double-standards we employ.

Often, when kids are "caught" like this, it's the girl "blamed" for it, or punished the most harshly. That is -- intended or not -- an unfortunately excellent setup to make women responsible for all things sexual, including male behaviour, which is put on them EVERYWHERE in our culture: they're either victims or influencers, rather than plain old participants, which -- when no coercion was present -- is often the case. Setting women up to be the sex police for men is a crappy setup, in short, and it also serves to obfuscate the matter per making out what really DID happen.

Looking over your background with her, I can offer a little critque if that's at all helpful or wanted. Right now, at her age, I'd suggest not dumbing things down so much, not using langauge about "moms" or "grandmoms." She's female, talk about women. There aren't age brackets on sex, so talk as you can about development, about limits and boundaries, about how to make choices that are right for her at any age, about how to assert herself. And don't make this about obedience to you (because ultimately, that's about your own issues of control, not about her safety). Make it about self-respect and safety for her.

You didn't say why you told her basic "show-me/show-you" was wrong, if that's what this was. It'd be helpful to know that. Generally, stating something isn't appropriate in public, or certain contexts makes sense. But really, plain old exploring is normal, and while your values are whatever they are, calling that wrong is iffy, since it's normal and natural. If it was NOT fully consensual exploration, telling her this was wrong of HER is really a mistake.

[This message has been edited by Miz Scarlet (edited 01-30-2006).]


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 9 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I so appreciate your advice and information, this is a difficult situation for us at home….to start with, I told her it wrong because a 9 or 10 year old having sex of any kind is wrong. And yes, me getting on her about disobeying me was my own control issue, as a parent I feel you must maintain a level of control with your children, or else you end up in situation like and even worse, some call it control I call it being a parent…..anyway
We have since talked about it thoroughly and I left no stone unturned. I didn’t dumb it down at all….My approach was as though I had read lostxxtears post before hand (which I did not) I stressed to her the dangers and how kids can make decisions that can change and ruin their lives, specific to sex . I told her that I had only had sex with one man in 15 years I told her the importance of the act. I told her more about disease and pregnancy. I told her she could die! I wasn’t trying to scare her per se, but I was very clear and direct. She was afraid just like I am…. As a result of the conversation I’m making a doctors appointment for her to make sure there was no penetration or danger of disease.
To be honest with you I’m pained for my daughter, not angry any more.

She didn’t really know what sex was or how to do it, even with my graphic description I still don’t think she quite gets it. She is a young 10, a sponge bob fan, she still enjoys sleeping with mom, has never walked to a store on her own.
I do not want to blame the boy because she was an equal participant, and while she did this on her own free will, she let the boy convince her to do it, He told her he would tell (something so petty ) if she did not do it, No, I’m not going to suggest that he raped her or molested her because they are the same age, and of pretty equal intelligence…. but he did show her how to do it, and she said she was basically just standing there still while he did it to her. And I think even if he didn’t penetrate her from what she was explaining to me, he may have ejaculated. Pray for this young girl!


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know, the threat of telling is HUGE for children. I cannot express to you how huge, save to say that it is the way most abusers of children keep them ever-quiet. It might seem petty to you, but to a child or even young adult, it is MASSIVE. Look at, for instance, what she had to come home to from you: that alone would offer a big deterrent to her accepting activity rather than exposure.

So, if she said the boy coerced her -- coercion, for the record, is a legal form of rape for adults -- AND under threat of telling, holding her equally responsible sounds extreme to me, and really unsound. So does telling her STIs can kill her given her age and what you have said about her development (it's also not that realistic: nearly all common STIs will NOT kill her).

Understand too, that she was not "having sex," in either equation, so holding her responsible for that, having developmentally normal exploration -- if that is what it was -- be called capital-W wrong is also a bit outer limits. Holding her responsible for being coerced is even more so. Chances are good you were in similar situations at a young age and simply don't remember it. Most people, internationally, historically since the dawn of time, have been. All the more so, if she was coerced, punishing her for being unable to resist coercion very few young girls CAN stand up to, is a grave error. From the sounds of your posts, I'm making a guess that she has grown up in a setting where women very agressively standing up for themselves towards men, or in general, isn't something that's all that enabled or taught, so expecting her to ably counter that is expecting more than she's likely able to if she was not reared to do so very strongly by you and others in your family.

Know that counter to what you have expressed here, someone being as smart as their rapist, or of the same age is no indication if a lack of rape. That's just terribly inaccurate and uninformed. Also know that if your child says she was frozen still, and was directed that abuse is NOT out of the questions here. That is not the response of a willing participant. Not at ALL.

(Please please, please also do NOT have her see any old doc for a GYN exam. If you feel you must, I'd suggest an actual GYN, preferably female, who HAS worked with children. A pelvic exam by a male GP for a girl that age could be traumatic and given the way this whole worsks is playing out, a very serious violation of her, by BOTH you and the doctor. But if the boy was her age, and she has not menstruated yet, it is HIGHLY unliklely there are physical concerns here, and know that treating things as if there was could seriously traumatize your child even more.)

I'm not going to pray for anyone, and unfortunately I am in a bit of a rush right now. But I do hope this can all be handled with a greater degree of normalcy, parity, with calm, and soundly. I hope, for instance, you've had some discussion with the BOY or his parents, where your daughter can see this was not about her being a criminal or you holding her responsible for his behaviour, and may even have been about her being abused or coerced (and the latter seems given, based on what she told you). If you rule that out, soundly, I hope you can address this with her with more calm and less blame.

(Lastly, I see no need for discussions of your sexual history, ideals and monogamy with her in discussion of this. This is NOT about your 10-year-old deciding to be a floozy. This isn't even about her sexual "choices." Talk like that, again, is going to come out as blame for something she didn't even do, and is only going to cause more trauma. It may make you feel better somehow, but it won't her.)

[This message has been edited by Miz Scarlet (edited 01-30-2006).]


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lostxxtears
Neophyte
Member # 26242

Icon 10 posted      Profile for lostxxtears     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm glad you told her about how its not right for her and the consequences of it...but scaring her isn't good. When it does come to the first time she has sex you don't want to make her afraid of it.. Give her the information, her choices, and the results of them...then you just have to let her decide...Scaring her could just ruin future relationships for her because shes so afraid that something bad will happen...I have to admit my first time i was paranoid the week of when i was supposed to get my period..but other than pregnancy I wasn't scared of it because my boyfriend and I talked about it and I waited until I was ready. She needs to realize that she has to be ready for it in more ways than one..and that right now she definitely isn't. I don't know just be careful what you say..you don't want to scare her but at the same time let her know its not ok to have sex so young and what can come from it.

[This message has been edited by lostxxtears (edited 01-30-2006).]


Posts: 23 | From: Arizona | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
(Lost, just for the record, some of what you are suggesting here and have suggested is REALLY questionable, especially since, at this point, it is unclear if this girl chose ANYTHING at all in this scenario. These situations tend to be really delicate, child psychology very tricky, and folk wisdom doesn't often serve well.

But most importantly: I SINCERELY doubt she was "choosing to have sex now," no matter the situation. If it was abusive, she wasn't choosing anything, save not to run or yell out or assert herself -- which she may have had no lessons in doing. If it was NOT abusive, and WAS deveopmentally appropriate, it wasn't "choosing to have sex." It was choosing to explore. However, given the new information momma has posted here, with coercion in place, as wel as threast to tell, we ARE looking at something nonconsensual, so making this about her choice in any way is blaming her for HIS behaviour.)


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 10 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Miz Scarlet, and every one else you are very right on so many of your points and I do appreciate your suggestions some don’t pertain to our situation ....namely the comment "I'm making a guess that she has grown up in a setting where her aggressively standing up for herself isn't something that's all that supported"

SO Wrong....100% Wrong with a capital W…..I am a woman with a "Strong presence" and I have always encouraged, even pushe my daughter to stand up for herself, as much as I have tried to make my girl a little more like me so that she can protect herself, in any situation,(and I was thinking of situations like this and otherwise) it hasn’t worked! It has been a long hard road...
She is the kid who is desperate for a friend who doesn’t fit in well with the group,(she says) and generally has low self esteem...She thinks I love her and tell her she’s beautiful or special because I’m her mom and I have to say that stuff.

I have been aware of her low self esteem since the age of about 7or 8…I give sooo many atta’ girls… and you can do its, good job and just general positive affirmation, out the ying yang, enough to make the average kid roll their eyes in disgust! But she is so encouraged by Moms “thumbs up” signal for what ever positive thing she has done, big or small,I only pour it on more.

I put her in Marshal Arts just so that, when/if that day ever came she could protect her self physically, because emotionally she just isn’t tuff, I don’t want to paint a picture of a little weak kid with no back bone, because she can smart mouth and argue…but it always seems to be so out of order. She will argue with a kid for choosing basket ball when she wanted to play kick ball, but will sit aimlessly on the side lines while a kid her ages Rambo’s off on her bike and rides off with friends and she will aimlessly stand by,and watch or wait for him/her to return. Its times like that I just don’t understand. Ok I’m getting off subject, sorry.

I did talk to the boys’ mother. Other than who told who to do what, we are pretty much aligned on our thoughts of the whole situation, she soundly believes that my daughter told her son to do this and he was talked into it by her. I decided that was a battle not worth having and my concern was my daughter not who she believed.
One lesson I have learned from your post is to not make her feel guilty or like she is going to die….while that really, really
was not my intent, I do think she believes or thinks both....I’m going to try to correct that, right after this post.

She said she feels like she is the only one who did something wrong and she has all the blame and he has none, I grounded her and she sees him outside playing every day and even making smart comments to her in school.
I reassured her that we have no control over how things are handled in his home we can only worry about ourselves…(I say we not because Im making it about me, but because I want her to know that Im in this with her, Im her mother and I do support her no matter what.)
I told her she is not to blame, but I want her to know that she alone is responsible for her own actions, and her own body and I stressed to her the importance to not vountarily let anyone take away her power.
I may reconsider the doctor…I was going to take her to the regular pediatrician and not a GYN at all. I will think and look into that more....
She hates that she has had to hear, learn and talk so much about this stuff she now feels that she knows stuff that 10 year olds shouldnt know and wants to go back to just being 10, but I have told her this is a lesson that will stick with her and now she is armed with complete knowledge. I wish I had told her all these things after the first episode, completely...I dont think it would have happend a second time.thanks again for your advice, and keep it coming!

[This message has been edited by concerned_momma (edited 01-30-2006).]


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gumdrop Girl
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 568

Icon 5 posted      Profile for Gumdrop Girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How old is the neighbor boy???

The fact that he threatened to tell on her screams MOLESTATION. He intimidated her, and she did what he wanted because she knew you'd get mad. But since you got mad at her, she's going to get even more scared to come to you for help. So i hope you made it clear that what he did by threatening her was wrong.

Now about the boy. If he's really young, and he's doing these sorts of things, there is a strong possibility he may have been molested. Kids don't come up with these manipulative behaviors from nowhere. There is a chance someone (a relative, a babysitter) did the same thing to him.

Of course, if he's older, then he may have learned it in more insidious ways. This is especially true if he hangs with a bad crowd.

------------------
LA County STD Hotline 1.800.758.0880
Toll free STD and clinic information, and condoms sent to your door for Los Angeles County residents.
1 in 3 sexually active people will be exposed to a STD by the time they turn 24.


Posts: 12677 | From: Los Angeles, CA ... somewhere off the 10 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Karybu
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 20094

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Karybu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What are you hoping to accomplish by taking her to the doctor to be examined? As Miz S. said, if she hasn't begun menstruating yet, and the boy is her age, it's really incredibly unlikely that there are any physical concerns here. I'd venture a guess that in a situation like this, taking her to the doctor may reinforce the idea that there is something "wrong" with her, that this is her fault somehow.

quote:
And she is not to blame, but I want her to know that she alone is responsible for her own actions.

If the situation is as you have described, she has likely been molested and therefore there is no "responsibility" for her to take here. This is NOT her fault; she has no "actions" to take responsibility for.


Posts: 5799 | From: Canada/Australia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gumdrop Girl
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 568

Icon 3 posted      Profile for Gumdrop Girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by karybu:
What are you hoping to accomplish by taking her to the doctor to be examined?

If there is reason to believe she was sexually assaulted, a gynecological exam can detect injuries and trauma.

The caveat is, if she gets examined against her will, the result is even GREATER trauma, particularly psychological.

I am not sure of the laws in IL, but in CA, if a doctor performs a pelvic exam on a girl against her consent (even a minor child), it is ASSAULT, and it is illegal.

So be careful about taking your daughter to see the doctor. If you are heavy handed, it will do far more harm than good.

------------------
LA County STD Hotline 1.800.758.0880
Toll free STD and clinic information, and condoms sent to your door for Los Angeles County residents.
1 in 3 sexually active people will be exposed to a STD by the time they turn 24.


Posts: 12677 | From: Los Angeles, CA ... somewhere off the 10 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If he's really young, and he's doing these sorts of things, there is a strong possibility he may have been molested. Kids don't come up with these manipulative behaviors from nowhere. There is a chance someone (a relative, a babysitter) did the same thing to him.

Of course, if he's older, then he may have learned it in more insidious ways. This is especially true if he hangs with a bad crowd.


I'm en route to bed with nasty jet lag from hell, and I don't want to sidetrack this discussion too much. But.

Historically and internationally, there's really little to support that this behaviour in boys is because of being victimized. When you suss out cases like this, even things like young-age school shootings, one usually does NOT find previous trauma. That's more the case with girls, not boys. And for adult men, the same holds true. few rapists were ever raped.

Do these behaviours come from nowhere? Likely not. But it's generally NOT from previous trauma, and most standing theory when it comes to these behaviours in boys and young men is that it's social and cultural as a whole for young men, per far more generalized influences, rather than situationally.

(And momma, glad to know I was in error per docility with your daughter's female role models and influences. While that -- especially in the world we live in -- can't fix everything or keep women FROM dangers so much, it's always going to help.)


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 9 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"How old is the neighbor boy???
The fact that he threatened to tell on her screams MOLESTATION. He intimidated her, and she did what he wanted because she knew you'd get mad."

This is exactly what happened. She told me this in almost those exact words. I feel terrible that she thought the small punishment she would have not even gotten was scarier to her. (I have my self to answer to on that)....I feel horrible because at its worse she would have just gotten a stern word or two if it were as bad as she thought it was, (which it wasnt)and even though she was terribly misguided I do understand her reasoning, and I’m going to make serious changes in my parenting.
I re-assured her that no child can ever tell me something about her/school that would cause her trouble, if it were that big of a deal the school would notify me, not the neighbor boy.
She did tell me, she figured she wouldn’t get caught doing this with the boy and I would never know about, the school situation.

Even though she didn’t know what she was getting into, she thought of it as a win win....He is also 10 about 7 mo.s older than her, and he told her if she did this every day for two weeks he wouldn’t tell...they were found out on day one.

SO, what kind of accountability does she bare? and finally other than the talking and explaining do you guys think I should do more? in any way?
My main fear is that it is not his first time and maybe he did penatrate her, or ejaculat and put my daughters health at risk? I just dont know...

[This message has been edited by concerned_momma (edited 01-31-2006).]


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Deunan Knute
Neophyte
Member # 25996

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Deunan Knute     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd probably tell your daughter to steer clear of that boy if she can. It sounds like he's bad news and he'll probably continue to be that way into high school.

The best way to find out exactly what happened to your daughter is to ask her. I'm sure she's conscious enough of her body to know if he penetrated her or not.


Posts: 23 | From: Alberta, Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 10 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
yes...but she doesnt know if he was inside her and she doesnt know if he ejaculated...I asked her did it hurt...she said no,I dont know...no. And she was not bleeding.
But what she told me of his actions during this humping episode leads me to believe he either ejaculated or was about to, from at least the friction of the experience.

It sickens me that a little perverted 10 year old boy, whom is just learning the magic of his penis may have taken avantage of my daughter, and used her for...

[This message has been edited by concerned_momma (edited 01-31-2006).]


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KittenGoddess
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 1679

Icon 10 posted      Profile for KittenGoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would suggest remembering that it's not easy to be 10 years old. While something like a threat to tell may seem a silly thing to us as adults, it's not silly to a child. Her perspective is much different than yours. And remember that as a 10 year old, she is just now probably beginning to develop those reasoning capacities. Just because she may have had the information that she should run away or that she should just tell him no and everything would be fine, does not mean that in that moment she actually felt safe to do that.

In terms of accountability, I would suggest being very very careful in how you deal with her about this. What occured was not her fault. And further, she should not feel guilt about the fact that she was not able to say no under duress. Instead, I would suggest that the two of you sit down and come up with strategies to deal with similar situations in the future. One of the things that we are discovering now in health communication is that one of the reasons that the "just say no" strategy is fatally flawed is that young people can't "just say no". The need real strategies for saying no, saving face, and exiting the situation. So you will probably better help your daughter if the two of you sit down and literally come up with scripted ways for her to exit these conversations in ways that will allow her to feel like she is saving face and to leave the situation safely (so that then she can come and tell you or another adult). While it would obviously be great if she could just say "No, I don't want to, I'm leaving and I don't care what you think or say," that simply may not be realistic at this point in time. Remember that children are not just miniture adults.

------------------
Sarah Liz
Scarleteen Sexpert


Posts: 7316 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Developmentally, 10-year-old boys do not usually ejaculate yet. In fact, developmentally, very few ten-year-old boys have even BEGUN puberty, let alone gotten to that stage (which tends to occur well into puberty: the ability to get erections is not the ability to ejaculate). This is one of the reasons I told you that I sincerely doubted pregnancy was a concern here.

Let's keep this real, okay?

I would suggest, at this point, that you take the following steps:

1) Do NOT escalate this emotionally with your daughter and do NOT turn this into a sex panic. In other words, upping the ante by presuming this incident was one of many when she didn't communicate that to you before or since, or assuming there was penetration when from the sounds of things, that wasn't likely either. Deal with this ONE incident now, and without continuing to punish or blame your daughter or scare her further with your words. Do NOT make this every waking minute of her day, do not disrupt her routines, do not panic in front of her. Ask her what SHE needs and wants here, too. She's 10: nothing close to an adult, but pretty capable of assessing her own basic needs.

And don't demonize the boy in front of her: that's only going to make her more fearful, and at this point, likely confuse the heck out of her since in a very short time, you've gone from spanking her to calling the boy a pervert.

2) Bring an in-person pro into this. That isn't us: we're more like a bridge to the real pros in these situations, however much background we may have. Someone calm, maybe a family doctor or school counselor she feels comfortable talking to, who can assess the whole situation and her needs with a bit more objectivity than you can, and who she doesn't have any association with of punishment and such with this. Also, if you need a pro for yourself -- and it sounds like that'd be helpful to you -- seek that out, possibly a family counselor, for instance.


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 10 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 

quote:
Originally posted by Miz Scarlet:
Developmentally, 10-year-old boys do not usually ejaculate yet. In fact, developmentally, very few ten-year-old boys have even BEGUN puberty, let alone gotten to that stage (which tends to occur well into puberty: the ability to get erections is not the ability to ejaculate)."

Well this is good to know...I wasn’t aware of this, as no one I have spoken to has told me this...not even her father. Our main focus started with did she allow this and if so why, and what can be done to make sure she sees the seriousness in her actions….I felt it was important to know if she was an equal/ willing participant, to know what kind of steps should be taken as far as personal consequences, for her in our home…. the more we talk about it, the more information received from her and this board… (.most importantly from her) but it was an ongoing process...

As panicked or worried as my post may sound my one and only concern is my daughter.
I started out just trying to get the truth out of her... (I am not trying to change any ones opinions on corporal punishment)... but, I only started getting the truth after the lies i.e. the spanking, yelling etc. Were only instruments in doing so, truth and consequences are real issues in our home…. as are cause & effect, responsibility and punishment….they will always be. (For adult as well as children) Parenting is no small fete even when there are no issues such as this, and yes I do feel this is a big deal, I have made sure I contain my emotions….thanks in part to your advice, but I feel its no less than my parental duty to try to figure out all their was to know, from every angle, I was finally able to grasp her intent...and her intent( like I think you said before)…was not to have sexual intercourse, and I didn’t know this from the beginning. Kids are starting quite early. In saying that I will also admit, I now know that, if my daughter didn’t feel that punishment was immanent, the boy would never have been able to manipulate her in this way….and I do feel she was manipulated. So, I have also learned a lesson here.


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 10 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Miz Scarlet:
[B " This is one of the reasons I told you that I sincerely doubted pregnancy was a concern here." [/B]

I’m all for keeping it real!
I never though pregnancy was a possibility as she has never started menstruating. And I just assumed she wouldn’t start to in the next month. My concern with the thought of him ejaculating was more about disease…I did tell her that pregnancy was a possible consequence of having sex…as I was not biting my tongue this time around. BUt again it was good to know that probably didnt happen. I was not presuming this incident was one of many... …. I’m confident this was the only incident like this….my panic so to speak was my desperation to make sure it was the last incident before she is age appropriate to deal with/make better decisions.

You know Miz Scarlet I’m a concerned mom and she’s an only child and, I just don’t want her to grow up to be "that girl" whom for what ever reason can’t tell the boys no...Or just doesn’t….And ends up doing things that she doesn’t like, doesn’t feel comfortable with, or the girl who is taken advantage of because in some way it makes her feel liked or special, she thinks its expected or what ever….. And it can easily happen, especially when a girl has low self esteem… creeps can and will seek those girls/women out.
Maybe that was never in the realm of possibilities for her, probably not. but as a mother, I had to consider all avenues, and teach what I felt needed to be learned. And do all I could within reason to make sure none of that was in her future.

I really appreciate your site, this was an excellent outlet for me and I can see how it is very beneficial to the younger less experienced users….as well as those of us who are not so young….I will be using this site when appropriate to teach lessons from now on.
OH yeah….

quote:
Originally posted by Miz Scarlet:
[B "
And don't demonize the boy in front of her: that's only going to make her more fearful, and at this point, likely confuse the heck out of her [/B]

….. I always considered him a pervert, and I have told her it is important to stay away from this kid in every way.I hope she does, and from any other boy in his clothes!

Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
but, I only started getting the truth after the lies i.e. the spanking, yelling etc. Were only instruments in doing so, truth and consequences are real issues in our home…. as are cause & effect, responsibility and punishment….they will always be.

Again, this just isn't anything I'm going to support or the staff of this board is, or to be frank anything I personally want to hear excused or described in depth. It's especially precarious when one employs one form of abuse to address another. In a household where yelling and spanking and such are not employed, I assure you, there are not only other ways to elicit the truth, chances of eliciting it earlier and more opnely, with less trauma for everyone, are better. To boot, it's been pretty well documented that children who grow up with these sorts of approaches are bigger marks for/ more vulnerable to abuses by others, because they have been reared to respond to intimidation, etc.

But again, at this point, this is moving out of our sphere per what we can do for you and your daughter (and she's too young to post here, so we can't mediate with her directly, either). I'd encourage you to look into the follow-ups suggested above.

------------------
Heather Corinna
Editor & Founder, Scarleteen
ST blogabout Heather & Scarleteen
I have come to learn that that which is most important to me must be spoken. - Audre Lorde


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
You know Miz Scarlet I’m a concerned mom and she’s an only child and, I just don’t want her to grow up to be "that girl" whom for what ever reason can’t tell the boys no...Or just doesn’t….And ends up doing things that she doesn’t like, doesn’t feel comfortable with, or the girl who is taken advantage of because in some way it makes her feel liked or special, she thinks its expected or what ever….. And it can easily happen, especially when a girl has low self esteem… creeps can and will seek those girls/women out.

You posted this while I was replying to your last post. And once more, I really think at this point it's time for you to seek out an in-person resource, but I want to speak to this in brief.

There's an interesting book you might want to read, it's pretty basic per feminist theory, so it's nothing that'll make your eyeballs hurt. It's a book called "Slut! Growing Up with a Bad Reputation," by Leonora Tenenbaum. It's an excellent book, full of interviews, studies, etc. about how exactly girls get labeled "that girl," and I think you'll find what it illustrates very surprising, namely that "those girls" generally aren't "those girls" at all.

I'd also suggest that if that's really your concern, you really do re-evaluate some of your parenting style, because some of what you've posted here regarding how things are done in your home very much do NOT support your daughter's esteem growing, nor her ability to set firm limits and boundaries. "Spanking the truth out," is simply NOT behaviour that rears chidren to have high esteem and healthy boundaries. I hate -- I really do -- to critique parents, and through a long career of teaching in various contexts, I always have tried to advocate for them. And yes: these are your personal choices and to some degree, it's no one's place to step in. But. When you say you want one thing for your child, but are doing things which stand counter to that, as an even stronger advocate for young people, I feel inclined to call that out, especially considering that pretty much every sound, reliable expert on child-rearing is in agreement with me on this. Especially considering that you seem perplexed that your daughter doesn't stand up for herself, despite things like martial arts training, when her biggest influences will be in her home, and some of what you are doing DIScourages her to do so greatly. The view from here doesn't make any of that seem at all perplexing.

As someone who ended up in a rape scenario more than once because some of the exact things you've stated you employ with your daughter kept me from seeing real dangers and kept me from knowing how to speak up for myself in abusive situations, I can't stay mum, and I also have to ask you again to please not post defenses of this here. I flatly do not want to look at them: that is MY boundary.

(Also, "And For Your Own Good" by Alice Miller, an amazing child psychology expert, is all about links created in children between corporal punishment, sadism and decreased empathy. Miller is a dense read, always, but she's excellent and highly respected in the field. You may also find this site of interest: http://www.nospank.net/main.htm There are LOADS of resources, reserach and such there on this issue.)


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 10 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks again, I asked for your opinion, and I appreciate it. I don’t mind the critique... Love, affection, support, and care far out way any other method of parenting, in my home, I would hope my post did reflect my love care, concern,worry...etc I relied(ing) heavily on love, affection, support, caring (and advice) in this and/or any situation much more than I do a spank....ITs never the only answer or cause.

I will definitely incorporate the role play...thanks for that idea!

OK~

Thanks again for the links as well! I believe I am done posting unless asked something specific.

[This message has been edited by concerned_momma (edited 01-31-2006).]


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No, that wouldn't be okay with me: as I'm sure I've made quite clear, that's a boundary with me, so I'm not sure why you're asking about it at all. Moreover, you got spanked, and now you spank in turn: frankly, that's pretty plain evidence to me that that DID turn into a pattern for you, and you were not, in fact, left unscathed.

But I don't want to discuss it here. Not only is Scarleteen not a parenting forum, I wouldn't be any more okay with a conversation on if hitting children is okay than I would with (and I am not making a direct comparison or conflation here, mind) a conversation on if rape is okay or not or if partner-abuse is okay or not.

We endorse nonviolence in all things here, and work to sustain a community space that is free of any endorsement of or support for violence.

------------------
Heather Corinna
Editor & Founder, Scarleteen
ST blogabout Heather & Scarleteen
I have come to learn that that which is most important to me must be spoken. - Audre Lorde


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Peaches44
Activist
Member # 27099

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Peaches44     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know if this will help at all but I can give some personal experience here that pertains to the issue.

I vaguely remember something from my youth that is similar to your daughter's situation. My best friend in elementary school was a boy from around the corner. I don't have a full and detailed memory of what happened but I do know that on more than one occasion he and I engaged in "sexual activities" (not intercourse). I know that, I didn't really know what was going on or why he wanted to do these things. He asked me to touch his penis mostly I think. Same deal "touch this or I'll tell". I remember my mom holding my hand and practically dragging me over to his house when she found out. His mom didn't want to believe her son did anything wrong and didn't punish him. My mom and his mom yelled at each other and then we went home and I wasn't friends with him anymore.

I didn't have any clue that I did anything wrong (my mom never did the birds and the bee's thing). My mom didn't explain anything to me and we never discussed what had happened again. I did get the impression from her that she was upset about what happened and she told me "never do that again" and that was it. It was definitely a poor approach to the issue.

I was still young when I found out about sex and I remember thinking the same thing that your daughter did "I shouldn't know this yet, I'm still a little kid" I kind of felt dirty when I started thinking about what I had learned. Then again I learned about sex from a counsellor that the police had interview me. (different story there)

I think it would have really helped me if my mom would have told me what the big deal was. I always hated it when my mom tried to "dumb things down" for me. I think that following the advice that others have posted here is the best thing to do. Obviously she is not too young to hear it because she is dealing with it right now.

I guess the key here is to enforce a healthy view of what sex is all about from now on. This situation doesn't HAVE to become a big thing for her in the future if it is handled properly.

I turned out fine. I guess my point is that your daughter will most likely be fine too.


Posts: 50 | From: Alberta Canada | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
concerned_momma
Neophyte
Member # 27265

Icon 10 posted      Profile for concerned_momma     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks peaches...I think she will be fine too, And Im sure I reacted much like your mom did, and got a similar response from the boys mom...
My daughter now knows what the big deal was, and Even though I would have liked to tell her about the "birds and the bee's" at what I concider a 10 year old level...I didnt, I told her the truth, (not my oppionions)...Just the facts and how they relate to disease and pregnancy...why its important to wait, the chances one takes,etc. at 10 she just didnt have a clue...now she does.

[This message has been edited by concerned_momma (edited 02-01-2006).]


Posts: 14 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
feefiefofemme
Activist
Member # 23917

Icon 10 posted      Profile for feefiefofemme     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to say, my mum told me pretty much everything (penis-in-vagina intercourse, pregnancy, artificial insemination, sex with people of the same sex) when I was about 3. Of course it was relatively watered down, but it was more or less all there. I really feel that this is one of the main reasons my mum and I are so close/open with each other. Virtually no topic is closed off between us and even though I'm not really the type of person to talk to people about my problesm, I know I can always come to her.

When I was younger, a guy in an older grade at my school tried (on several occaisions) to kiss me. I really disliked the guy, but still I remember feeling flattered. Nonetheless, I did feel like something wasn't really right. He kept telling me not to tell anyone and threatening me, but still I talked to my mum about it and she talked to my teacher. I think the guy was actually taken out of my class (it was a split class). I don't know that my story is completely relavant, but I do think it demonstrates my relationship with my mum. I just think that being open with your kids is really important. I know I sound like some sort of therapist-type person when I say this, but if you set an example by not keeping secrets, I know, speaking from a teen's point of view, that your kids will be more willing to open up to you.


Posts: 406 | From: California | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
La_bratti
Neophyte
Member # 23733

Icon 14 posted      Profile for La_bratti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just keep her away from him...

[This message has been edited by La_bratti (edited 02-02-2006).]


Posts: 20 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hoonstar
Neophyte
Member # 27370

Icon 10 posted      Profile for hoonstar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the kid next door knows what sex is... and if you want your child to be safe, you should keep her away from the kid.
Posts: 4 | From: Fresh Meadows, NY, USA | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know, the interesting thing the last two responses to this reveal is the idea that the problem is this given kid, and that keeping the duaghter from him solves the problem.

Thing is, there are LOTS of "those kids," and "those guys." Coercion is, unfortunately, really common and a lot of young men are socialized with it either by not addressing sexuality with them at all, as well as making very clear what is and isn't okay, or by cultural or interpersonal edicts that it IS, if not okay, excusable.

So, yeah: when you KNOW someone is a problem, limiting contact is going to help. But most young women -- and some young men as well -- will face incidents like this again and again through their lives, often unpredictably, so the "keep-away" approach actually doesn't solve the problem very well (and it also, in some sense, sends the message that it is someone who is being coerced or victimized's responsibility to avoid the issue, rather than the other person's responsibility not to behave that way, at all, ever.)


Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

  New Poll   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Get the Whole Story! Go Home to SCARLETEEN: Sex Ed for the Real World | Privacy Statement

Copyright 1998, 2014 Heather Corinna/Scarleteen
Scarleteen.com: Providing comprehensive sex education online to teens and young adults worldwide since 1998

Information on this site is provided for educational purposes. It is not meant to and cannot substitute for advice or care provided by an in-person medical professional. The information contained herein is not meant to be used to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease, or for prescribing any medication. You should always consult your own healthcare provider if you have a health problem or medical condition.

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3