posted
Every one's heard it. Whether it is meant as an offensive remark or it is so imprinted into the mind of the speaker that they don't even realize that they've said it, we all know someone who says it. Do you respond with "Gay is not a synonym for stupid", or a sarcastic "oh so your math test liked math tests of the same gender", or do you even care? I have my own take on the phrase, but I would like some other peoples opinions please. (Every one welcome to respond, I am interested in a variety of opinions, not just those of GLBTs)
So, how do you respond when gay is equated to stupid?
-------------------- ~moonlight
I am ME and that is the only label I need. Posts: 819 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2009
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-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63355 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I like that campaign a lot. However many of the things listed on the "say something original" wall don't sound anymore educated. Don't get me wrong I am 100% for the word substitutions I just think it would be good to compile a list of more sophisticated words/phrases to use.
-------------------- - Kaydee
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. - Albert Einstein Posts: 55 | From: NY | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
(I agree with you, Kaydee and Bonnie.N.Clyde that while it's important to not say homophobic things, it's also important not to say things that are negative towards another group of people. Good for you for noticing it and calling it out! )
Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
=] I think that might be a good Scarleteen article. Being able to express dislike without hate is something that I think teens need to be reminded how to do. I'm not implying that today's youth is cold hearted or anything of that sort, I just think that those phrases have become such common place that many don't really think much about using them.
-------------------- - Kaydee
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. - Albert Einstein Posts: 55 | From: NY | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I until recently didn't realize that people were beginning to use "gay" as "stupid". I thought when they say: "That red lock is so gay" they mean "That red lock makes you so homosexual". Stop confusing people by saying things that are like that!
-------------------- Grizzly
Wondering about my handle? I have hairy legs. Last year, my "friends" used "Grizzly" to tease me. now I just use it as nickname. Posts: 47 | From: Oakland | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
(Grizzly, the point here isn't about the phrase being confusing, but that the phrase is offensive and hurtful.)
-------------------- Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.--Monty Python and the Holy Grail Posts: 2726 | From: North America | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
^Right. Sorry, for not getting the point of the thread. That is also true, I'm sure that those who actually are gay do find this offensive because it's a stereotype (or at least can be perceived as one).
-------------------- Grizzly
Wondering about my handle? I have hairy legs. Last year, my "friends" used "Grizzly" to tease me. now I just use it as nickname. Posts: 47 | From: Oakland | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Well, bear in mind that it's important to look at who is usually SAYING "That's so gay." Not only is it usually meant AS "stupid," rather than the way you were assuming, even someone who says it meaning they feel something IS representative of homosexuality?
..is usually a straight person.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63355 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
^A lot of kids at my school say it but I'm not exactly sure how you can classify any of us a "gay" or "straight" or anything like that. We're only teenagers erupting with hormones. When they ask me what orientation I am I say "How am I supposed to know that?". Am I making any sense?
-------------------- Grizzly
Wondering about my handle? I have hairy legs. Last year, my "friends" used "Grizzly" to tease me. now I just use it as nickname. Posts: 47 | From: Oakland | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
grizzly_boy, while I think it's important for people to be open-minded about their sexual orientations and not pidgeon-hole themselves into an ill-fitting or undesired label, I think it's also important to recognize and respect how people choose to define themselves.
I know you're coming to this from a queer-positive angle but someone homophobic could also say something like, "[You're] only teenagers erupting with hormones" in an attempt to disregard or put down a young person coming out to them. There is still the expectation that people are "straight until proven queer" in society, which makes me think of the poignant reply to "When did you first think you were gay?" "When did you first think you were straight?"
I think it's also important to treat everything that teens -- or people of any age really -- say as being valid and taken seriously. Whether it's something positive or neutral (like someone coming out) or something negative ("That's so gay!" when they mean "stupid" or "ridiculous"), it should be taken seriously and people should be held to task. When people say that in my classroom, I neither ignore it nor immediately reach for some punishment but encourage people to reflect upon the true meaning of what they said (which they really never mean to be "homosexual") and then find a more fitting alternative. It may cause some groans and eye rolling but people pick it up really quickly and ultimately do appreciate being part of a more positive and safe environment.
So, the bottom line is that I see and treat what teens say as valid and important. High school may be a time in between, sort of training wheels for a more independent adult life, but that's even more reason to me why to insist upon such reflection and change. I think it's a lot easier to make those adjustments at a younger age but it starts with taking what people say-- good, bad and ugly-- at face value and responding accordingly.
It sounds like a lot of people are asking you to define yourself when you don't want to: in a way it's annoying and really none of their business but they, too, have probably been wondering what they "are" and see you as someone who's come further on that path than they have. (As in, not choosing a label but being able to reflect positively and be comfortable with who you are.) You're absolutely right to respond how you have been, not at all or however you happen to see fit. Speaking of labels and high school, have you seen this article yet? Living without LabelsPosts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Hi, and thanks for the link. Yeah, it is annoying, because (even though I was s "early sprouter") I've never really been attracted to anybody, and the question of what orientation I am can be hard for me to answer. Frankly I'm not so sure how anybody who's in middle school can answer that question.
-------------------- Grizzly
Wondering about my handle? I have hairy legs. Last year, my "friends" used "Grizzly" to tease me. now I just use it as nickname. Posts: 47 | From: Oakland | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^Hmm. That link redirects to the proper URL but not an article. This is a page full of links to quite a few articles.
-------------------- Grizzly
Wondering about my handle? I have hairy legs. Last year, my "friends" used "Grizzly" to tease me. now I just use it as nickname. Posts: 47 | From: Oakland | Registered: Dec 2009
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I think it's important to bear in mind that we just don't all have the same pace and same experiences. For sure, plenty of people will NOT know what their orientation is in middle or high school. But plenty of people also will. Of course, plenty of people who know their orientation at any time may also have a shift later in life: for instance, quite a few women who ID as heterosexual all their lives discover in their 50's or 60' they're lesbian.
But some of us do know: I didn't have the language for it, but I knew I was bisexual at 10, something which hasn't really changed at all in the last 30 years since, sparing one stint of a few years where I really only found myself being attracted to women. At the same time, I had friends back then who had no idea, no sense of those feelings yet at all, etc.
But usually, for people of ALL ages doing a "That's so gay," we're not talking about gay people self-describing or meaning that phrase in good spirits. Usually, it's a slur.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63355 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I may get "bashed" for saying this, but we also need to give people who say "That's so gay" a little understanding, as well. I mean, coming from this conversation from the viewpoint of a linguist, the word gay has undergone a long history of semantic shifts (when a word slowly takes on a different meaning). There are things you say in everyday speech, which would make no sense to speakers 100 years ago. Because language is undergoing a constant change, we need to show understanding towards people using words and phrases, which may be offensive to some people. For example, I know a handful of glbt people who use the word "retarded." I actually couldn't believe they, people who are generally accepting of people from all walks of life, could use such a word to describe something "stupid."
I think it's very hard to address people in this situation. I do not, however, believe that getting angry and making a scene is the answer. We can start by telling our friends that this bothers us, but if you have "repeat offenders" in your friend circle and "unfriending" them is not an option, you may have to turn a blind eye on this one. It's very very difficult to change the speech patterns of people, especially if you are just one voice in the crowd. It often takes something like google.com, a large, often-used item in our society to make the very "to google" prevalent in our language.
posted
I disagree with your statement here about "turning a blind eye" to friends using these words as well as that it's something society has to accept. There are plenty of racial slurs that may have been once popular in various forms that are now seen as completely inappropriate and unacceptable; for example, I can think back to politicians being forced to resign for saying racial epithets. The context of these words, be it something racist or "retarded" are unkind and disturb a safe, caring atmosphere; yeah, their meanings may have changed over time but I don't think to the extent you're saying here.
Likewise, from a behavior modification standpoint, people CAN and DO change their language and behavior. I'm not saying everyone does or does so all the time but I don't see it as being a reason to give up. Those who care and are active in causing change can do that and I believe positive change starts in grassroot efforts. As I wrote earlier, I do not tolerate phrases such as "that's gay" or "that's retarded" in my classroom; I charge students to think about what it really means and then find a more suitable alternative. That's respectful and understanding of differences and really quite successful: I think you also need to give people, especially teens, more credit for being thoughtful and mindful about these things upon reflection or closer inspection. Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
The problem with society, however, is that we do tolerate this kind of language - we allow our children to listen to/support music artists who use the word "nigger" in their songs. This happens every day and I think it's a perfect example to support my previous claim that language does change in this way. The gay community works in the same way; fag used to be a taboo word, but now I hear it being used in news articles, on TV, etc by other members of the GLBT community. Why aren't we condemning them? Aren't they using a word that has greater negative connotations than "That's so gay?" Do you tell your students not to support these people? I'm not trying to start an argument or get under your skin, but you must also see that we allow our children to grow up in a society where far worse is tolerated and have nothing to say about it (not to say that you don't act out against it, but it would seem that, while these things remain in the media, there isn't much of an outcry happening).
Linguistically speaking, it is hard to change peoples' speech patterns - just because your kids don't say "That's so gay" in Ms. Lena's classroom doesn't mean it's not happening where you aren't. I do give teenagers credit. Heck, I was still a teenager myself three years ago, but it takes a focused mind and a heightened sense of awareness that even a lot of adults lack to change speech patterns. This is the same reason my mother still says "warsh" and "ain't" after years and years of my nagging her and correcting her.
I am all for telling people to stop saying "That's so gay" and I do this in my circle of friends. There does, however, need to be a level of understanding that goes along with this - we don't control how our children are "linguistically imprinted" and, unfortunately, all of your hard work as a teacher goes down the drain when one of your kids climbs in the car with his father and he tells him that "The umpire at the baseball game this afternoon was so gay, he couldn't even tell when it was a strike!"
Posts: 23 | From: Boulder, CO | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
You know, you may give teens credit here but you're also not giving me or my students the credit we deserve. Do you *really* think I'm not aware of what you've mentioned here about how people change their speech depending on situation? Maybe it was hard for you to change these things as a teen but it doesn't mean that you didn't have peers who were more mindful and flexible in this way. Likewise, a lot depends on the school environment: such vocabulary is not tolerated where I am and this is enforced. It's also a very diverse place so a lot of racial slurs wouldn't be tolerated either by the majority of students and faculty. Also, a lot of people would not feel comfortable with their father saying that; just because they may hear it at home doesn't mean that they approve of it. And, as you demonstrated yourself, there are plenty of people who are not afraid to correct or challenge their elders.
You're coming to this from one angle-- as a linguistics student, I believe-- and I'm coming to this from another angle, a high school teacher and college instructor with a background in sociology, education, and language. I can accept the differences in opinion but the bottom line is that at places like Scarleteen we do not tolerate that kind of language, regardless of intentions, because it doesn't support the positive, welcoming, and accepting atmosphere we seek to create. I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion because I want to focus my attention on assisting others needing attention; however, I encourage you to continue it in your linguistics and ethics classes and beyond.
posted
It Really annoys me when People use gay in the derogatory term, One of the girls in my class uses it constantly , and I corrected her on something the other day in maths (The answers two,, no it's not it's four) Her response "Yeah , Well , your gay..." I completely let rip at her Like i'm not gay , But gay people are people too , And I support them and think they should have equal rights as straight people
I just hate it.
Posts: 9 | From: Dublin, Ireland | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Just a friendly reminder for folks having conversations like this?
Some of us "thems" are right here. It can feel really othering when people -- whether talking about GLBT people, people of color, what have you -- say "them" when discussing what's an "us" for some of us.
Just some language to try on? Try "those of you who are <whatever group you're not a member of but are talking about>" instead of "them" in these conversations, especially when you're an ally. That way, we can really feel an alliance, rather than wondering why our allies talk about us in third person.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63355 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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