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Author Topic: Elton John/M&M thing
Hotbuttered101
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I heard this thing on the radio and I just wanted to know what u guys think? Ne way...It was about a dispute between GLAAD and Elton John. GLAAD said that Elton John shouldn't have done the duet w/Eminem. In response Elton said that certain people in GLAAD were being A-holes and that if Eminem was really homophobic he wouldn't have asked him, and that they were aiming for the opposite affect on people. What r your feelings about M&M, the duet, and the dispute? I personaly think that Eminem does what he does for attention and because he's insecure. I'm not condoning what he says-I just think it's the sick, hateful image thing he's trying to hold up. and
I agree with Elton in a way. I also understand where GLAAD is comming from. I'm divided on this one. What does everyone think?

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Pixie69
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I don't know all the details, but here are a few things of my opinion. Eminem is basically homophobic, in the few songs I've heard of his he definetly shows that he's not going to be marching in the next gay pride parade. I'm not too familiar with him, but, from what I can tell he's just not for gay people, which is all right - everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And, as far as I know he doesn't condone violence on gay people. He could be any other person disagreeing with something, but because he's famous everyone gets to hear his opinions.

I'm assuming that Elton John is gay? (is it that obvious that I don't get out enough? sheesh, that's what happens when you don't watch TV and you don't read magazines). I can see what GLAAD is saying, "hey Elton, it's uncool that you did this duet with a person who obviously has anti-gay feelings, you shouldn't put up with that." And I can see Elton saying "well, if he's cool with me and he wanted to do that, maybe it's his way of making a statement and I can do music stuff with whoever I want to, thankyouverymuch".

I think that it's okay to not agree with someone, for being a way that they are or for having certain opinions, but that doesn't mean that you can't peacefully coexist with them. So, maybe Eminem doesn't feel all bright and fuzzy when he sees two guys holding hands, that doesn't necessarily mean that he hates gay people or wishes death upon them. So...maybe that was his way of showing that it's okay to disagree with something, but that doesn't mean you can't get along with those people.

Well, based on my little tiny knowledge of the situation, that's my opinion on that. But I don't really know. :/

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sapphirecat
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Given the miniscule subset of Eminem lyrics I've actually listened to/read (the real slim shady), I'm guessing he's just trying to annoy people. But given my sample size, I'm not drawing any real conclusions.

In reply to your signature, Hotbuttered, it annoys me more when people use u, r, and/or ur instead of you, are, and your. I bet all the replies like this take more bandwidth than those abbreviations save, anyway. So in conclusion, please follow the "post with care to grammar" bit in the guidelines.

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-- Sapphire Cat

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I don't use the term "straight". It implies its opposite is "crooked".


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John Doe
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Personally I have more problem with the people who run the grammy's for nominating him for awards than I do with M&M. He has his right to his opinions, but it doesn't mean that people should be honoring him because he holds them. The guy is a rapper, which means that the lyrics are the essence of what he does. Its not like he is pushing new frontiers in melody and harmony. Its one thing to honor a Richard Wagner for his music, even though his politics were abhorent, because it is pretty easy to seperate the music from the political ideas. With a rap musician, I just don't see how that is possible. Rap music is more like poetry. Is it possible to honor a Robert Frost or a Carl Sandberg without honoring the thoughts that they express in their poetry?
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Hotbuttered101
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I'm sorry about my signature. It's been changed . I think I'm spending way too much time on the internet. I'm starting to write like that often...lol.

I just feel that M&M is trying to get people upset for the publicity. I think that what he says is definately homophobic and wrong, but Elton (he is gay) makes a very good point. If he was homophobic, why would he ask Elton to do the duet with him? I like some stuff from Eminem, but I just don't agree w/him about everything. Which is fine. I agree with you...People can have different opininion and still co-exist. I also hate it when people try to convert you to their religion online and tell you 1. Your religion(I'm Jewish) is wrong, and 2. You're going to hell(Well...Excuse me! Who made you G-d). They can have their damb opinion...But leave me the hell alone. Sorry...I'm going off the topic...

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Confused boy
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I think everyone seems to miss the point that in fact Eminem is not homophobic at all! His rapping is intensely ironic when examined carefully and in fact contains subtle but important political messages. I will try and remember some next time I listen to it. He has sort of set himself up with this image so that he can then make fun of all those people who claim he is destroying youth. That is why he was willing to do the song with Elton John because that was his way of saying that all the stuff he says is not to be taken seriously, or rather should be taken seriously but not taken at face value.
The Guardian, a very liberal left wing newspaper, called Eminem the best poet since William Wordsworth! So either Eminem is in fact cleverly ironic in style, or he has very succesfully conned liberals into thinking he is!

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky

[This message has been edited by Confused boy (edited 10-18-2001).]


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DrQuack5
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I couldn't agree more with ConfusedBoy here. I was just listening to his Marshall Mathers CD today and it seems that a lot of the songs are about how he didn't expect to affect people. The stuff that's popular is his homophobic stuff because it's catchy.
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ninaBruja
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.

[This message has been edited by ninaBruja (edited 10-22-2001).]


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ninaBruja
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well... eminem used to piss me off, to tell the truth, but now i've decided that he's a pretty good rapper. (almost typed "raper" there... lol!) i think he did the duet w/elton john to show there were no hard feelings, like "hey, i'm ok with you as long as you're ok with me". or something. i think elton john should be able to sing with whoever he wants to, and GLAAD needs to pull that large stick out of its *** .

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just to disprove all the things that you say


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Pumpkin_Pie
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quote:

"My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge, it'll stab you in the head whether you're a *** or les." - CRIMINAL

Need I say more?


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Confused boy
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Its ironic!

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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Rizzo
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Care to enlighten me as to what the irony is?
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Confused boy
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I am glad you asked that question because previously I had thought this particular song was merely a attention grabbing one. However, I have now taken the trouble to listen to the song more carefully and it seems to have many layers of meaning.

The song starts off with Slimshady saying that too many people take what he says in his records too seriously and he doesnt mean it at all. He then swiftly moves into the actual song saying that he will actually kill everyone. The irony being that he has already said he is talking rubbish before he starts.

His reason to kill? "I'm a criminal." This is a clever way to mock the way the right wingers (e.g. Republicans) attempt to dehumanise the "criminal". Slimshady is presenting himself as what a criminal is like to these unenlightened individuals: an out of control monster who will kill you any chance he gets and therefore does not deserve any rights. This hyperbole shows how utterly ridiculous this right wing propaganda is. Many criminals need help, not punishment.

The same people who support the state killing of criminals are also the people who hate Slimshady's songs and want them banned. This links not only back to the overall point of "dont take me too seriously" but also opens these people up for further mockery. He emphasises these people want to stop him from speaking his mind: a violation of one of those proud amendements.

"Please Lord, this boy needs Jesus, heinous child help us destroy these demons [note demons could refer to Eminem, his fans AND homosexuals]" Standard mockery of the religious right but it takes a more cutting tone to demonstrate their occasional hypocracy:

"And please send me a brand new car and prostitute while my wife is sick in the hospital"

It is necessarily to realise that not only is Eminem not to be taken at face value (sometimes he just wants to break up the web of political correctness) but also sometimes takes on different persona that does not represent his own views.

His more general point is that society is leaving a significant proportion of people behind. They are becoming an underclass that will act just like himself (well how he acts for his songs) and are completely alienated from the high minded talk of politicians (Right and politically correct Liberal) transform into nothing to actually help them. This warning is ignored at everyone's peril.


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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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Hillary
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Heh, Hotbuttered- when people tell me I'm going to hell, I just say "Well then! Too bad the position of God is all ready taken!" Off topic. Anyways, Elton and Eminem singing together confused me- seemed to go against everything Eminem standed for, and Elton was kinda betraying himself and gay people to sing with such an openly homophobic person... i dont know. I think it was probably just to make a controversy, which it has!
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Confused boy
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Its because Eminem isnt actually homophobic. I mean he is hardly religious! In some of his raps, it is highly suggested that he and his colleagues are engaging in homosexual activities. He is just a reaction against political correctness that attempts to change our language so that it is impossible to say certain feelings and the artificial nature of the pop world.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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Annie724
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But even if his lyrics are meant to be ironic, if you have to listen to them that closely to catch the irony, does it...I don't know...count? You know what I mean? Most people are just going to hear the songs on the radio. They're not gonna examine the meaning in context. So regardless of what Eminem _really_ means, for them it's just a bunch of homophobic something.

What I think about Eminem is that everything he does is for publicity -- just to stir up attention. Heck, got us talking about him, hasn't he?


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Dzuunmod
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Okay, confused boy, I'll give you that Eminem is brilliant and ironic for the sake of argument.

The problem, however, is that his audience consists in no small part of teenaged (and less than teenaged) boys, who are still impressionable enough to not see the irony.

Unless one of these days he just says, "Gay people are all right. I have no problem with gay people. Oh, and women are pretty good too..." many of his fans are going to remain clueless to the hilarity that you say is there.

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She's a smooth operator/It's all so calculated/She's got a calculator/She's my soft touch typewriter
-Elvis Costello

[This message has been edited by Dzuunmod (edited 04-28-2002).]


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Confused boy
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Well perhaps singing with Elton John is his way of saying that he is not at all serious about his homophobia. I also imagine that the opinions of his listeners are not directly affected by his music. For example, I know a few other people who listen to Eminem, most of which are perfectly happy with homosexuality (of course that is partly down to whom I am friendly with). But I would argue that it works the other way that homophobic Eminem listeners are ALREADY homophobic. So he is not exactly improving the opinions of people, but he isnt a particularly bad effect on it either.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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Dzuunmod
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What I'm saying though, is that Eminem's listeners (many of 'em, anyway) are still at an age where they're just beginning to form opinions about homosexuality, and a whole range of issues. Having an icon who voices violent fantasies (genuine or not) about homosexuals isn't helping the cause.

Hugging Elton John isn't going to change a thing in the minds of those kids (and actually, I think that blantantly stating that his whole persona is a joke wouldn't get through to some kids that age, either).

He's talking to a fan base that, sure, includes college students who've already thought this stuff through, but also includes 10-year old boys. He's being irresponsible with his fame.

Incidentally, the guy just paid 100,000 pounds to buy back every single copy of a British magazine called "The Face". Why did he do that you ask? Because on the cover he was shown wearing a pink (albeit digitally-altered) tank top. If he weren't so macho (or vain), he'd have had no problem being shown like that.

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She's a smooth operator/It's all so calculated/She's got a calculator/She's my soft touch typewriter
-Elvis Costello

[This message has been edited by Dzuunmod (edited 04-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Dzuunmod (edited 04-28-2002).]


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Confused boy
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Woah and he is dressing up as Ossama Bin Laden in his next video! I'll have to think about that one to work out some clever point he must be getting across by doing that ...how about... attacking the way the media attemps to personify evil by concentrating on a few select people when in reality it is many nations with grievences that has produced such terrorists. Yeah that will do.

On the pink shirt front, that does seem a rather trivial reason to stop the publishing of a magazine. Though I would say that even though my own sexuality is somewhat mixed, I still like to stay with a fairly masculine image and so I suppose a man he is straight might want to keep that even more. A pink shirt isn't really a strong statement though. I think that might show that he is becoming obsessed with image, just like the popstars he so often mocked.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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Hotbuttered101
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Make what you will of it. This was reported by www.lesbianation.com:


EMINEM SAYS IT WAS A JOKE

Eminem’s show-stopping Grammy Awards performance with Elton John in 2000 was a joke, according to the rapper. The controversial hit maker told bosses at his record label Interscope he'd only play the Grammys with Elton John--thinking his demands would never be met and he wouldn't have to go to the ceremony.

He reveals, "I was just taking a stab in the dark. It was actually a cop out, so I didn't have to go to the Grammys. So when Jimmt Iovine at Interscope rang back and said, 'He'll do it,' I was lost for words."

But Eminem admits he's glad he stepped up on stage with Elton, adding, "Elton was sticking up a lot for me in the press and I respect any man who gets it."


[This message has been edited by Hotbuttered101 (edited 05-03-2002).]


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PutMyLoveInABox
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Eminiem is an artist. He is an outspoken, callous, freeminded artist. And he speaks his mind. He also enjoys making jack***es out of the press when they write bad crap about him.

Eminem doesn't offend me in the least, ask anyone. I'll sit in class and just start singing his lyrics out loud. Some people just aren't mature enough to not take it at face value.

And as they aren't mature enough, parents should be monitering their music/tv/movies intake. But they don't. And then there goes half the population down the drainpipe of Doom. (^.^) I'm a girl, yet one of my favorite songs by him is "Kill you" which is probably one of his most female-"dissing" songs.

Homosexuals and Bisexuals, I have no problem with them, i find them to be the bravest and most real people I know, and I might even be one myself. I'm not sure still (^.^).

The thing IS is that Eminem has a WAY with words. His raps are GENIUS. The beat and etc. with the rhythm is amazing. He deserves any nd all he recieves. All of the crap in the press he's getting... well I'm glad SOMEONE is taking a stand against tabloids.

He is offenseive, yes, if you don't pay attention to him. I've read very fewe articles with him in them, yet out of these five or six... I've come to learn he isn't as bad as everyone seems to make him out to be. You need to have an open mind, and he is RIGHT on the First Ammendment issue on his song lyrics. Free Speach all the way!

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-Someone once told me to do my homework. I responded in explaining that it would then leave me no time to plot my world domination takeover-


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Spavin59
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Well, here are my thoughts on Eminem. I think that his songs are meant to be more ironic than serious, as if he was saying the things he says just because the media complains that he says them, and he wants to provoke reactions in people. And he has succeeded at that, probably beyond his wildest dreams. I mean, whenever his name is brought up in the media, I'm sure that helps just to put his name out there and more people end up buying his music. I for one, think he is very talented in the way he writes his music, and has some amazing songs, however he also has some songs that I just think are disgusting. My solution is to just listen to the ones that I like (most of his new CD), and not listen to the ones I don't (Criminal, Marshall Mathers). And what is weird is that when I first heard about the homophobia controversy, I thought he actually had the opposite views (as in his lyrics for "The Real Slim Shady": "There's no reason that a man and another man can't elope.") His critics seemed to just ignore that verse, while only pointing out ones with anti-gay epithets.
I think a lot of what he says is just for media attention - and this is basically my views on most things - but if you don't like him then just don't listen to him. It's like when people complain about violence on TV - just change the channel.

[This message has been edited by Spavin59 (edited 09-13-2002).]


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