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Author Topic: sexual orientation: a choice?
Lucky1402
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Like Mz S said about asking a heterosexual person to choose to be gay and see what they say. My friend Zeke recently said "If I could choose to be straight, I would, because it would be alot easier." I guess what he meant was that it would be easier to be straight because he wouldn't have to encounter all of the predjudice and hardships that many gay people have to endure. Basically it would be easier for him to be straight, but he CAN'T choose to be straight, because being gay is who he is. He didn't choose to be gay, it's just how he is, and he can't change that by going to any any heterosexual center or getting psychological treatment.

So basically, I feel that a persons orientation is not a choice, but is something that is a part of yourself.

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*^Lucky^*
Come check out what's goin on in Lucky's mind!

"At one point we decided to fight fire with fire. Well...basically...your house burned even faster."

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$uMMeR
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I like Lucky's way of saying it. Because of a lot of prejudice in this world, I'm sure some homosexuals would prefer being straight, but can't change it.

It can be very sad sometimes (the prejudice that exists against homosexuals).

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Juice
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i agree that it is not a choice.

maybe a better question would be is it nurture or nature?


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Celtic Daisy
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Personally, i think that you're born with it. I'm straight, and i have some gay/bi friends, but i truly don't think i could ever be bi or lesbian. I'm not attracted to the same sex that way. I don't think that you can convince someone to chance sexual orientation. it's something that they feel and i'm sure dont' want to change.

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suzanny
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I must say that I agree with Miz Scarlet. I know that no matter how hard I try, I cannot hide my internal attraction to other people whom I find "attractive". I may be able to conceal my emotions, and act as if I am not attracted to a particular person, therefore declining any possibility for a relationship with that person. Although, the feeling that the person arouses within me cannot be hidden or doused. I have been aware of my bisexuality for 5 years now, and I must admit that I am not the best at hiding my feelings towards other people, male and female alike; but, given certain circumstances, such as the crowded hallway of our high school and my friends walking with me, I feel obliged to ignore my emotions, and deny my attraction towards the person. It is very difficult to explain, as you can tell. I suppose I am trying to say that I believe that I would not need to hide these feelings had I not been born with them. Yes, the people whom I may feel attracted to are stimuli for my emotions and physical reactions, but it is society and my subconscience which tell me to withdraw from exerting a response to either the person or anybody around me. If I felt like I wouldn't be scorned and ridiculed by classmates and others alike, I would possibly feel free to show my emotions and express my feelings toward certain people of my liking. However, the mere thought of people hating me for being bisexual stops me from reaching this liberty. Maybe as society learns to accept gays, lesibans, and bisexuals, I will feel free to express my emotions and at liberty to unchain the attraction I have for these people.

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~Winners need their losers!~


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WonderGirl16
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i believe we are born w/ it. i'm sure that if and when i come out to my family, the unaccepting ones will try to blame it on the fact that i never had a steady "father-figure" (my mom has been an off-and-on single mother... i've had 3 step-dad's). or try to say that its my reaction to my problematic life and a way to cope... whatever. even as a little girl i remember not being all that partial to the Ken dolls, but preferring Barbie oh well, let 'em say what they want

.*.Nicki.*.


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John Doe
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I'll just add my $0.02 here.
there has been a genetic predisposition found in the case of male homosexuals, it is passed down through the mother's side of the family. There is an excelent book on this subject called "The Science of Desire". I don't remember the authors name, and I loaned out my copy so i can't give you the library of congress number. In addition to the genetic factor, it also appears that there is an in utero influence. Spicifically, idntical twins (ie same genes and same in utero experience) are over 50% likely to share the same sexual orientation, Fraternal twins, which are essentially brothers born at the same time, with different genes but the same in utero experience are 28% likely to have the same orientation. the likelyhood of brothers born at different times is on the order of 12% while the underling rate of homosexuality is aproximately 5%. The underling rate is what you would expect if there were no gentic effect at all. The in utero effect has been linked to the amount and the timing of releases of testosterone into the womb by the mother. The study did not look at the question of lesbianism, and the authors felt that if it was gentic, it would probably work through a different gene sequence than male homosexuality.
As forthe possibility of change, i would urge people to read Cure, but Martin Duberman. Also look at it logically, why would anyone choose to be in a minority which is often persicuted. Would you choose to be black in 1975 South Africa?

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"and these three, faith hope and love abide, and the greatest of these is love"


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rambler
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I'm going to be very brief here:

I don't believe sexual orientation is a choice. I went through many, many years of being confused in a bad way, and a lot of generally bad stuff while coming to the conclusions about myself that I have right now. I would say that I'd choose to be straight just to be normal, if I could. On any given day I might say "I'd choose to be a lesbian" or "I'd choose to be straight" depending on how I'm feeling. On the one hand, I'm in a monogamous relationship with a male so it'd follow that I'd prefer to be straight in order to keep that going or whatever, but I generally find more females attractive than males, so I'd really do better as a lesbian. Before I settled on the term "bi" (Which I've found doesn't even really accurately define me but it works for now), I was a lot more comfortable with the idea of being a lesbian. I guess what I'm saying is I'd prefer to be at either end, I don't care what end, but one end, rather than somewhere in a grey area. Yes there is a lot of angst and such which comes with coming out and everything, but I know that among my group of friends and most of my family it would not be a big deal if I were a lesbian. Why do I know this? Because I already came out as one before I met my current love. Having sort of lived on both extremes of the Kinsey scale I'd say I like them both about equally. But I guess that's why most people would call me bi.

I was asked to summarize an article for my sociology class last week on the topic of "Family." I found an article on lesbian mothers--both those who were divorced (i.e. having children conceived in heterosexual marriages which broke up) and who had been impregnated via artificial insemination. About 92% of children of lesbians who were surveyed post-puberty identified as straight (although more children of lesbians had had some kind of same-sex experimentation in their lives). That would lead me to say that it's not going to be more prevalent if you have a gay parent. I think the article is fairly well-reasoned although it would be better if more research existed on the topic, but it doesn't.

I obtained the article via EBSCOHost in "Academic Search Elite." It's from a May 2000 issue of Sexual And Relationship Therapy I think...from the UK (citing both UK and US studies over the past 25-or-so years). So I can't give a direct URL but I find that most schools have access to EBSCOHost or something similar, if only in the library.

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rambler
Visit disabledsex.org -- Disability and Sexuality.
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PixieDust
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The Daily Show just did an expose on how orange juice makes you gay...and a woman from GLAAD said "No, cuz if that were the case, Gore would have won Florida"
Just thought I'd add a bit of lightness to this thread.
~Shandi

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"We are the normal"-Johny Rznick


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MonkeyGurl7
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Okay I am straight but I got bored and decided to read what people had to say. I happened to wonder upon this topic.
I have always wanted to voice MY opinion. I strongly disagree with people that say they were born gay/lesbian/bi. Very sorry if I offend anyone. I think that people become that way when they are around people that live that lifestyle such as gay parents or friends. Someone that makes it okay. I am a very religious person and my religion does not accept same sex relationships. It's not normal. I have no problem with it because it's the lifestyle that I don't like and not the person. If my good friend told me she was lesbian I would be like okay. I would still be her best friend and support her but I don't think anyone is born like that. It is like someone who won't date a white person becuase they enjoy being with african american people. It's not the color of thier skin that you appreciate, it's their personality. Thanks for reading! I am sincerely sorry if I offended anyone and I have no problem with same sex relationships.

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MonkeyGurl7


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MonkeyGurl7
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Okay I am straight but I got bored and decided to read what people had to say. I happened to wonder upon this topic.
I have always wanted to voice MY opinion. I strongly disagree with people that say they were born gay/lesbian/bi. Very sorry if I offend anyone. I think that people become that way when they are around people that live that lifestyle such as gay parents or friends. Someone that makes it okay. I am a very religious person and my religion does not accept same sex relationships. It's not normal. I have no problem with it because it's the lifestyle that I don't like and not the person. If my good friend told me she was lesbian I would be like okay. I would still be her best friend and support her but I don't think anyone is born like that. It is like someone who won't date a white person becuase they enjoy being with african american people. It's not the color of thier skin that you appreciate, it's their personality. Thanks for reading! I am sincerely sorry if I offended anyone and I have no problem with same sex relationships.

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MonkeyGurl7


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Bobolink
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Monkeygurl7, if people could chose to be gay, why would they? Consider how dangerous it is to be gay due to the persecution by the (un)Christian wrong and their cohorts. Are you saying that same-sex relationships are inherently more satisfying than heterosexual relationships and that only your religious upbringing keeps you straight?

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We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.

- Albert Einstein

[This message has been edited by Bobolink (edited 08-07-2001).]


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John Doe
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So monkey girl, if people only become gay if they are around gay parents and other influences, then there would have been no such thing as gay people in say the 1950's when everyone was in the closet.
You say that you don't belive people are born gay, but offer absolutely no evidence that your view is correct. How would you then explain that identical twins are far more likely to share sexual orientation than fraternal twins, and that fraternal twins are far more likely to share sexual orientation than siblings who are born at different times. Those factors point to a combination of genetic and in-utero influences on sexual orientation. That is science. Or do we just chalk this up to a type of christianity which denies science, ie along with insisting that Darwin was full of it, and the Church was right to make Galileo recant, and that dinosaurs never existed because the world was created in 4066 BC, based on the begats in the bible.

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Heather
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normal:adj. 1. regular, usual, typical. 2. free from mental or emotional disorder.

Monkey, given the percentage of people who do idnetify as other than heterosexual, a very sizeable protion of the population, it is indeed, by definntion, quite normal. And unless you are an experienced expert in psychology and can evaluate every person who is not heterosexual individually, I don't see you being in the postion to assess normalcy or a lack thereof on that level.

You certainly may have your opinion, but using phrases like "it's not normal" is neither kind nor accurate, and I do find it offensive, especially considering that I have been bisexual all of my sexual life (which I certainly wouldn't attribute solely to genetics, or even primarily to genetics, as most sex researchers also would not -- for more info on that, I'd suggest you reread parts of this thread -- but it is where my attraction goes without my willing it, all the same, just as it goes for you being heterosexual) and pay for all use of this service. You may also want to bear in mind how very many religious traditions there are in the world.

If you really want to be so adamant, the best approach may be to actually do some research so that you can clearly understand what sexual orientationm even is (because it's clear that even in regard to heterosexuality, you likely don't fully understand the concept), and also take a look at why you feel YOUR orientation is inherent, but no other orientation is. It's a bit like saying one can be born one race, but not another. because of what orientation means, something that validates one cannot invalidate another, or vice-versa. That is logically fallacious.

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Heather Corinna
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[This message has been edited by Miz Scarlet (edited 08-07-2001).]


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Desdemona
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Hmmm...
I am new to the board, so forgive me if I act like a jerk or a moron, please. I don't think that it's a choice, no more than your natural hair color is. As for normalcy, I don't believe it exists. All people are unique, so let's go out there and be ourselves! My gosh I sound cheesy!
~Zylle~

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TenohSetsuna
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I think you're born with your sexual orientation, and you can't change it. As someone said, ask a straight person to be gay for a day and see what happens. They'll probably fall on their face in surprise(that was a generalization, not a fact, I know that not everyone would do that). I'd say that the whole choice/no choice debate is a lot of what fuels homophobia. A girl once asked me(after nearly making me fall into a boat out of suprise by asking me if I was a lesbian) if homosexuality was a choice. I just stared at her, then said no. I couldn't see how it could be a choice. She ddin't tell me what she thought on the matter, and I didn't ask because I was in shock(have you ever been asked twice in one day when there are no rainbow flags around?), yet she seemed really intrigued, as in truly interested. Anyway, it's all open to debate, I suppose, but my opinion's not going to change any time soon.
--Haruka

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"I never said I was a boy." - Tenoh Haruka, episode 92, Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon


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mnsouthpawjr
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How you deal with your sexual orientation is a choice.

*You deny or hide your sexuality.
*You choose to admit your sexuality.
*You choose to partake in gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered acts.
*You choose to be a crossdresser.
*You choose to be honest with yourself about your sexuality.

*You don't choose your fantasies.
*You don't choose who you're attracted to.
*You don't choose the characteristics that decide your sexuality.

As far as the counseling goes on coverting people to heterosexuals -- it may be valid. However, I wonder how many truly converted people are HAPPY with their sexuality. Are they pretending to be straight because they're coerced to be? Are they really straight??


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cichi_cichi_yaya_dada
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The whole thing kinda makes me mad. I don't think anyone has the RIGHT answer to this question, but all that matters is what you think. And here's my opinion. Being straight is not a big deal and is NEVER questioned by anyone. If someone says that they are straight, you don't ask why. People just let it go because it's how everything is "supposed" to be. Ask them if they chose to be straight. I'm sure everyone of them will answer with a no. So, if they don't chose, why is it that we should be able to? No, I don't think that it is a matter of choice. I think that it is just WHO WE ARE. And I think that some scientists even suggested that there is something in our genes that could give us the extra chance. If that was proven, homosexuality could be looked upon as a genetic mistake then. Which wouldn't be good. Anyways, sorry to get off topic.

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Life is like a bug. Sometimes it bites and sometimes it doesn't.


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badly_behaved_badger
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Actually, I was listening to something on the radio about whether or not we choose our sexuality. Scientists say that they have been looking at the brain and how it is slightly different in heterosexuals, so that kinda suggests that we are born with our sexuality. cichi_cichi, I certainly wouldn't look at that as a genetic 'mistake', just a difference - just like being left handed or right handed. No one thinks a left handed person is genitically subnormal, so why should they think that about a gay person?

I don't think we choose our sexuality, just as I don't choose who I'm attracted to. It just happens.
*Badger*

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Philosophers wonder whether the fridge light stays on when the door is closed; fridges wonder whether philosophers still talk rubbish when they take off their corduroy jackets.


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KittenKisses
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I'm just throwing my two cents in but up until I met my current partner, my girlfriend, I was convinced and sure I was completely straight and I believe I was, too. I wasn't attracted to any other females (not out of the norm, 'norm' meaning like sexually or romantically attracted...) but when I met my gf we were just friends. I wasn't even attracted to her then. But we got to know each other and we became very close. So close that eventually I fell in love with her, it scared me at first but I cared about her so much that I knew it was more than just a close friend bond. Same went for her.
In a nutshell, we slowly became romantically attatched and now we're like any other lesbian couple, simply because I love her too much to care about what gender my body is and I wouldn't let that stand between us.
My mind has no gender, like someone else said it has simply adopted the traits that my gender should. Like I was raised to.
But even now, when I'm attracted to her (physically, emotionally, sexually..every way..) I'm still not attracted to -any- other females...I'm still attracted to guys...but not girls.(I can agree some are attractive, but I can never imagine being with any of them...) (However, I've settled with the idea that I'm bi.)
So what does this make this? A choice? Or someting I was born with?
Should I ever break up with my gf and have me go back to being 'straight' that would likely make it a choice, would it not? And simply because she may be the only female I'm ever romantically attatched to does -not- mean it was a "fling" or an "experiment" and was any less meaningful. I love her to death and I suppose the only thing I can settle with here is the simple path of just letting it remain a mystery.
If we're all happy with our orientations (and what have you) why should it really matter?
The thought plagues me too but I've learned to just try and not care the best I can.
Hope that sparks a few thoughts.
Erf, that was more like a whole $1.75, rather than 2 cents! Sorry 'bout that... I don't know when to stop when it comes to these topics...

[This message has been edited by KittenKisses (edited 08-09-2002).]


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-Jill
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KittenKisses-

That was worth every penny. I really admire your attitude toward your current and future relationships - it is most excellent.


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stilwondrin
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im happy for you kittenkisses.eventhough u nvr had any sexual xpeience with the same sex u've found the guts to stand beside what you feel towards your bestriend. i admire u coz i cant do it 100% all the way with my bestfriend.though i know that we both feel somethin for each other, we are so coward to stand up for what we feel for each other and so we just dont talk bout it.but sometimes the feelings jst too intense to hide.sometimes we end up xpressing our feelings physically on our private moments and then foget bout it after.*sigh*
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MagicPatrick
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I found some interesting info from this site (http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet1.html)

I may not be a pshycologist but some of this information seemed probably accurate, but some of it didn't... what do you guys think? I think the information could be outdated or biased... here i'll post some tidbits of it...

"What causes homosexual desire?

1. Homosexual experience:

-any homosexual experience in childhood, especially if it is a first sexual experience or with an adult

-any homosexual contact with an adult, particularly with a relative or authority figure (in a random survey, 5% of adult homosexuals vs 0.8% of heterosexuals reported childhood sexual involvements with elementary or secondary school teachers (5).

2. Family abnormality, including the following:

-a dominant, possessive, or rejecting mother

-an absent, distant, or rejecting father (I've heard rejection of the same sex parent was a factor)

-a parent with homosexual proclivities, particularly one who molests a child of the same sex

-a sibling with homosexual tendencies, particularly one who molests a brother or sister (From what i've heard.. the orientation of family doesnt matter, even if parents/guardians are homosexual)

-the lack of a religious home environment
divorce, which often leads to sexual problems for both the children and the adults

-parents who model unconventional sex roles
condoning homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle– welcoming homosexuals (e.g., co-workers, friends) into the family circle

3. Unusual sexual experience, particularly in early childhood:

-precocious or excessive masturbation (I doubt this is true...like the hairy palms =))

-exposure to pornography in childhood

-depersonalized sex (e.g., group sex, sex with animals)

-or girls, sexual interaction with adult males

4. Cultural influences:

-a visible and socially approved homosexual sub-culture that invites curiosity and encourages exploration

-pro-homosexual sex education

-openly homosexual authority figures, such as teachers (4% of Kinsey's and 4% of FRI's gays reported that their first homosexual experience was with a teacher [only 4%?, that doesn't sound like sound enough evidence])

-societal and legal toleration of homosexual acts

-depictions of homosexuality as normal and/or desirable behavior"

Any comments on this source? One reason I don't believe this source is that it says, later in the page, that sexual orientation can be changed... and according to what i've read, it cannot be.

Another source.. this has 2 points that are similar to the first source... (http://www.truthwalk.com/Q%20and%20A/homosexualcauses.html)

"Sociologists tell us that there are major commonalities in the background of those who say that they struggle with homosexual attraction. The most common experience is physical or sexual abuse. The second most common is a physically or emotionally absent father, which makes it difficult for a boy to secure his own masculinity. One of these factors is almost always present for a male struggling with homosexuality. "

Another source... which states that it could be a biological reason (http://www.kstatecollegian.com/issues/v099b/sp/n113/opn-kevyn-03.06.95.html)

"Recent research has demonstrated that the brains of men and women are different in some surprising ways. It has been suggested that women have greater connectivity between the two halves of their brain, as a result of a thicker corpus callosum -- the brain tissue that links the two halves together. It is this greater connectivity that has been suggested as the cause of greater intuitiveness and creativity in women.

This same thickening has been demonstrated to exist in the brains of gay men, suggesting that the brains of men like myself are probably more like women's brains in function than men's.

Another brain difference has been found in the hypothalamus -- a part of the brain that influences sexual behavior and sexual aggression. Males tend to have much larger cell structures in certain parts of the hypothalamus, while females tend to have smaller cell structures.

And again, studies of the hypothalami in homosexual men have found that the smaller, female-like cell structures are present.

This would seem to suggest that homosexual behavior is, in part, influenced by biology."

Another source that points to hormone levels and genetics at birth.. (http://www.narth.com/docs/pieces.html)

"The boy (for example) who one day may go on to struggle with homosexuality is born with certain features that are somewhat more common among homosexuals than in the population at large. Some of these traits might be inherited (genetic), while others might have been caused by the "intrauterine environment" (hormones). What this means is that a youngster without these traits will be somewhat less likely to become homosexual later than someone with them."

This part talks about the "rejection from same sex parent" again... this one focuses on males but the same might be true for females.. where they are rejected by their mother.

"a painful "mismatch" between what he needed and longed for and what his father offered him. Perhaps most people would agree that his father was distinctly distant and ineffective; maybe it was just that his own needs were unique enough that his father, a decent man, could never quite find the right way to relate to him. Or perhaps his father really disliked and rejected his son's sensitivity. In any event, the absence of a happy, warm, and intimate closeness with his father led to the boy's pulling away in disappointment, "defensively detaching" in order to protect himself.

...When puberty sets in, sexual urges - which can attach themselves to any object, especially in males - rise to the surface and combine with his already intense need for masculine intimacy and warmth. He begins to develop homosexual crushes. Later he recalls, "My first sexual longings were directed not at girls but at boys. I was never interested in girls." "

Ok last source... for good measure here's a religious point of view (http://www.churchesofchrist.net/authors/Mark_A_Copeland/hom/hom_04.htm) I found this evidence to be rather good tho.

"For example, recent studies done with identical twins have been offered by some as evidence that the origins of homosexuality might be in the genes. In one study, Dr. Michael Bailey of Northwestern University examined 110 pairs of identical twins who had been separated at birth and raised in different environments. He found that if one was gay there was a 52% chance the other was also. But among fraternal twins, the chance fell to 22%. Because the ratio was higher among twins who are genetically identical, this study has been referred to by many as evidence that homosexuality is genetic in origin. I even heard Dr. Dean Edell (a famous radio call-in doctor) appeal to this study in defense of homosexuality.

I may be missing something here, but the reason why identical twins are such fascinating subjects of scientific study is because they ARE alike genetically. Therefore, if homosexuality is solely genetic in origin, then if one twin is gay, you would expect the chances of the other twin being gay to be 100%! The fact that only 52% of those who were identical in genetic makeup to their homosexual twin were gay themselves would strongly confirm that genetics alone does not make one homosexual! "

Wow that's a loooong post.. i'm hope i'm not considered spamming.. i just like to research i guess. I've always been told to look at different points of view and that information can always be biased. The main points that were common the sources were:

1) Early sexual experience
2) Rejection of same-sex parent
3) Society, religion, education, and uprising
4) Hormone levels at birth and early development (this was also stated as a possible reason in a Biology video i watched, along with brain shape)
5) Brain shape/size (like gay men have similiar brains to females)
6) Genetics

So yeah i hope that helps... *phew* that was a lot of work.. just note that not all of these sources are 100% correct.. which is why i tried to get varying sources...

So basically from what i've read, sexuality is caused in part by genes, hormone levels at birth, and brain size. But these are only part of it, other causes are rejection of the same sex parent, early sexual situations, and how the child was brought up, society and religions... environmental factors, etc..

Comments?

[This message has been edited by MagicPatrick (edited 04-12-2004).]

EDIT: Ooops! I just realized that I messed up! I followed a link to this post.. and I didn't know it was a thread in the "Read Only Archive" until I posted! Sorry about that! =/ Please delete my post if you don't want it here... sorry about that! I'd delete my post myself.. but you might want to keep it *shrug* because of all the information in it. Yeah so.. sorry about that I'm make sure not to do that again!

[This message has been edited by MagicPatrick (edited 04-12-2004).]


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logic_grrl
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quote:
I think the information could be outdated or biased...

I'd say so, yeah.

The stuff about "rejection of the same sex parent" (or other emotional disturbances) causing homsexuality has been discredited long ago.

And the idea that "lack of a religious home environment" causes homosexuality gives you an idea of where this stuff is coming from.

This sort of stuff is produced by organizations, usually with a religious agenda, who think that homosexuality should be "cured". The reason why you've found various sites making similar points is that they're associated - part of a small group of mostly Christian-fundamentalist groups trying to turn back the clock and treat homosexuality as a "sickness".

It's regarded as bogus and dangerous by mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists, and has been officially condemned by the American Psychological Association and other professional groups (after decades of research showing that homosexuality is not a mental illness and can't be "cured" by therapy).

quote:
for good measure here's a religious point of view

Actually, apart from http://www.kstatecollegian.com/issues/v099b/sp/n113/opn-kevyn-03.06.95.html , all the sites you've referred to are either specifically Christian fundamentalist sites, or strongly associated with the fundamentalist movement (like NARTH).

Check out their home pages. "Truthwalk" makes it clear that it's presenting "a bi-monthly commentary on contemporary issues from a Christian perspective. " The "Family Research Institute" has a bizarro rant about the horrors of gay marriage and "homosexual rape and murder of children", which it seems to think is going on all the time.

If you're trying to evaluate information, it's usually a good idea to look at the rest of the website in question so you can see what their agenda is.

quote:
I've always been told to look at different points of view and that information can always be biased.

Indeed. So you might want to check out some sources with a different point of view, e.g. http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html , and http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html - which was developed and endorsed by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counselling Association, and the American Psychological Association, among others.

At the moment, nobody knows exactly what causes homosexuality - or heterosexuality, or bisexuality, for that matter. It looks like genetics may be one part of the story about sexual orientation, but not the whole story.

But the idea that it's caused or affected by bad relationships with parents or by sexual abuse has been thoroughly discredited.


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MagicPatrick
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"The stuff about "rejection of the same sex parent" (or other emotional disturbances) causing homsexuality has been discredited long ago."

Oh has it? I'm sorry... maybe i haven't read about that. I just saw "rejection of the same sex parent" in a lot of sources so i thought it might be a factor.

"And the idea that "lack of a religious home environment" causes homosexuality gives you an idea of where this stuff is coming from."

Yeah i figured that made the first source biased, that and it said homosexuality could be cured :P

"Actually, apart from http://www.kstatecollegian.com/issues/v099b/sp/n113/opn-kevyn-03.06.95.html , all the sites you've referred to are either specifically Christian fundamentalist sites, or strongly associated with the fundamentalist movement (like NARTH)."

Hehe oops :P? I just picked most of the most popular sites i've found on google, i guess most of them came up religious.

Perhaps i was being too lazy with my research and I didnt look at the philosophy BEHIND the source.. i just grabbed a bunch of sources sorry :P

Ok thanks for correcting me with my information .


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logic_grrl
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That's the thing with the internet - anyone can put up a website, and on that website they can put anything they want, however biased or inaccurate.

So if you want to do research on the net, it's a smart idea to check where information is coming from, who it's coming from, what their credentials are, what their agenda is, if there's any guarantee of its reliability, and so on.

If I typed "penis enlargement" into Google, I'd find thousands of "sources" promising safe and medically-proven ways of enlarging penises to amazing sizes - that still wouldn't make it true .


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MagicPatrick
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"If I typed "penis enlargement" into Google, I'd find thousands of "sources" promising safe and medically-proven ways of enlarging penises to amazing sizes - that still wouldn't make it true ."

Uh... i get enough "penis enlargement" stuff in my email X_x... i hate it lol...

Yeah i was being to hasty and just posting sources without looking very well at the source itself :P I figured some of them were biased but some of them didn't seem to be... :P I guess i can only really trust the American Phycologic Association and related "Associations" who actually know their stuff...

Speaking of research, I should probably start on my "Theory of Knowledge" essay... which happens to be on.. "Knowledge and Truth" hehe....


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jeangenie
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I'm bi and I don't know or care why. I'm the kind of person that insists one must prove everything they think logically. (high school debate sticks with you for LIFE) but not when it comes to sex or attraction. I find that "I know who I am and I know who I want" ('but i'm a cheerleader', great movie) attraction is not based on anything for me, sometimes i see someone and BAM the sparks fly, i could see someone more technically attractive and... nothing. Sometimes this happens with men, less often with women. I see no reason to worry. I may have been born this way, I may have been conditioned, either way, it's who I am and that may change as I age, it may not. Whatever works, works. If homophobia didn't exist, would it matter? I've posted many times about my friend thats very attracted to me but previously only attracted to men, weird things happen. Attraction is a funny thing. I accept myself and that's all I need.
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clamourous_glamour
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I would think that I lot of those things don't actually increase prevelance of homosexual inclination, they just allow more opportunity for sexual expression or general openness. For instance, if you parents have "unconventional sex roles" it might be because they're unconventionally liberal, in which case you might be more likely to contemplate homosexual feelings & fantasies or even just feel like you can come out. Especially something like "lack of religion", which to mean screams an image of strict religious families & oppressive homophobia, potential alienation, forced gender roles..
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clamourous_glamour
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I would think that I lot of those things don't actually increase prevelance of homosexual inclination, they just allow more opportunity for sexual expression or general openness. For instance, if you parents have "unconventional sex roles" it might be because they're unconventionally liberal, in which case you might be more likely to contemplate homosexual feelings & fantasies or even just feel like you can come out. Especially something like "lack of religion", which to mean screams an image of strict religious families & oppressive homophobia, potential alienation, forced gender roles..
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clamourous_glamour
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I would think that I lot of those things don't actually increase prevelance of homosexual inclination, they just allow more opportunity for sexual expression or general openness. For instance, if you parents have "unconventional sex roles" it might be because they're unconventionally liberal, in which case you might be more likely to contemplate homosexual feelings & fantasies or even just feel like you can come out. Especially something like "lack of religion", which to mean screams an image of strict religious families & oppressive homophobia, potential alienation, forced gender roles..
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clamourous_glamour
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I would think that I lot of those things don't actually increase prevelance of homosexual inclination, they just allow more opportunity for sexual expression or general openness. For instance, if you parents have "unconventional sex roles" it might be because they're unconventionally liberal, in which case you might be more likely to contemplate homosexual feelings & fantasies or even just feel like you can come out. Especially something like "lack of religion", which to mean screams an image of strict religious families & oppressive homophobia, potential alienation, forced gender roles..
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limpducky
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i think its just however you want to label yourself. If you are attracted to the same sex and the oppostie sex but only the same sex at moments you can consider youself bi or straight whatever it doesn't matter. We are all human and we should have the right to be attracted to anyone and choose what to call ourselves who cares what society chooses to label you. Is sexual a preference a choice, who knows and who cares as long as you are happy with who you want to be with.
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onmypathtodestiny
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I believe it depends. Sometimes I meet people and swear they were born gay. However something has to happen to you in order to be attracted to people of the same sex. Whether you are child or older. The only thing I truly believe is a choice is being bisexual. You choose to have relationships with both sexes. God doesn't do that to people.
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Milke
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I'm a bit confused. What would have to happen to someone to make them homosexual, and why would that be so? Why would God *not* be responsible for making people gay or bisexual, if you believe sexual orientation is all down to divine power, and certainly, not everyone does. Do you really believe it's necessary to bring God into this topic, knowing that not everyone has the same religious beliefs, or any religious beliefs at all? I'm really not sure quite what you're trying to express here.

------------------
Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

Everything's been sold to others' revolutions


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