Just thought it'd be interesting, and let some guys post input, too.

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~lemming, Scarleteen Advocate

www.open-sesame.com

Being wiccan actually ended a relationship I was in, but he wasn't worth it anyway....too narrow minded for my liking. All in all it's been a positive part of my life. I think it's important to have some sort of beliefs though, whatever they are.

And November 1st is our New Year!!

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}{*Starry Ali*}{

"You flicker. And you're beautiful. You glow inside my head. You hold me hypnotized, I'm mesmerized..."

an btw i luv open sesame, but heres another good site aswell : http://www.witchvox.net

*the race is long , and in the end , its only with yourself*

quote:

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Originally posted by Milke:
...and won't see any spiritual experiences or beliefs that don't have the Wiccan seal on them as valid. What to do with a clique that gives a title to their pretentions and uses it as an excuse for all manner of unkindness, and attacks any complaint as biggotry and intolerance?

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Yikes. Let's try and address this one small issue at a time. For the record, I am actually what is considered a hereditary witch (my grandmother was strega), and studied Wicca as a solitary for years well through my early twenties, and was also a priestess for a while. To date, the best classification you're going to bet on me is a "Wiccabu," as I practice Buddhism, but I still also practive wiccan holidays and basic redes (the two are really quite similar at their core).

So, to start with, there is no "wiccan seal" on anything, since Wicca is a neo-pagan tradition that in it's present incarnation is incredibly new. There is no church or organized body which can place a "seal" on anything, so your partner may want to have a look at that. Thje beauty of wicca is, in fact, that it is so organic and self-created, though what I have often seen in my years is that people who come to wicca from other very structured religions like Catholicism, or who are young adults when they come to it tend to sometimes approach it as if it were a "religion."

The final episode episode was filmed in the drainage pools of Treblinka and was titled "The Danger of Certainty" His point was that, in science, we must always be uncertain of our therories as scientific advancement is caused by questioning existing ideas.

He pointed out that "certainty" in society is dysfunctional. It can lead to societies that stagnate as they consider that no new knowledge can be acquired. In the most extreme cases, belief is considered absolute truth understood only by the "chosen". Those outside this circle are apostate and deserve no recognition as human beings.

He ended the show by bending over and scooping up with his hand some mud from the drainage pool. Mud that most likely contained the ashes of his family. It was a very powerful moment that I have never forgotten. It has made me question any statement or person who claims to have a lock on the "truth".

You might still be able to find the book of the series in used bookstores or in libraries.

[This message has been edited by Bobolink (edited 31 October 2000).]

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"No day is so bad it can't be fixed with a nap."
--Carrie Snow

"A mistake is simply another way of doing things."
--Katharine Graham

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"No day is so bad it can't be fixed with a nap."
--Carrie Snow

"A mistake is simply another way of doing things."
--Katharine Graham

To be honest with you, I don't care very much for titles and classifications myself, and even though I studied and practiced for nigh unto 20 years when it comes to paganism, and have family history with it, it's rare I call myself pagan (although, based on the actual definiition of pagan, if one isn't Judeo-Christian, one is pagan, regardless) or wiccan. I call myself me, and I figure anyone who wants to know the things I believe in will talk to me or get to know them over time. One or two words just do a really piss-poor job of summing them up.

It also sounds to me like your guy may simply have a bad case of what I used to call the Icky-Wicky-Stickies. In other words, he's new to it, it's making him feel important or like he belongs to something, and so he's fixated on it, and wants everyone else to be too. To be plain, that's half the reason I rarely tell other people new to Wicca my background, because they assume that means that is all I want to talk about 24/7, and that I'd not tire of discussing it every time they see me (which isn't so, to me my spiritual path is very private).

This is exactly the kind of religion i've been looking for. It's a religion that i can follow on my own and it makes me feel really good about myself and my life.

I would classify myself as a green witch, because i'm very close to nature and i really respect it.

I've been asked a couple of times if my pentagram that i wear is the star of david or a sign for the devil. I never say it's wiccan because people jump to conclusions, they take "it's pagan" better.

I think one of the reasons wicca is made fun of, is because it's population isn't all that large, i mean, i know quite a lot of people who are pagan, but they don't make up most of the population. It's easy to make fun and not get flak about it. I mostly brush those off, like sabrina the teenage witch. I call those cartoon witches.

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'Steve, sex with two whole women, think of the advantages...they can't both fall asleep. If one of them suddenly leaves or punches you, you've still got one left. If one of them plays that old sneaking out of the window trick, there's someone there to untie you. It's total genius.' -Jeff Murdock

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Originally posted by Echolar:
The reason Wiccans are often "made fun of" is many of them always are Marlyn Manson listening people who sit around in dog collars and chains. On top of this they claim to be able to do "anything with spells" yet have never once created an effect that is noticable to any others. (i.e. those that show up and say they can levitate.. well I have yet to see a person levitate.) A religion that promises power yet does not ever show that power is worse than one that doesn't promise power in my opinion.

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Echolar, take a look at the guidelines.

You're starting to walk on dangerous ground here.

quote:

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When posting, you are expected to be respectful of your fellow posters and our staff, and to use language which is unlikely to offend anyone, which is not salacious or overly explicit, and which encourages intelligent, safe and mature discussion of the issues at hand.

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Your making a generalization here also. Most pagan/wiccans i know and talk to are in fact, parents, adults, and many don't appreciate the music of marylin manson.

It sounds to me like the people you're talking about are the ones who pretend to be witches. Wicca has much more to do with religion then casting spells. I've never heard a pagan claim they can make things move with their mind, because that's just not a very likely thing to happen.

Wicca doesn't promise "power" or magick, it's a way of life for many people. The power that is often refered to is the natural power in yourself, mainly, i belive, will power. In fact wicca doesn't promise anything.

Before you start saying how you don't like someone's religion, make sure you know what it's all about. Obviously, you're going on what you've heard through gossip and the media.

I also think another reason that wiccans are made fun of, is just for what i've said above: people simply don't want to take the time to understand what it is. People also tend to associate satanism with wicca, which makes absolutly no sense, because most pagans and wiccans don't believe in satan or hell, myself included.

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'Steve, sex with two whole women, think of the advantages...they can't both fall asleep. If one of them suddenly leaves or punches you, you've still got one left. If one of them plays that old sneaking out of the window trick, there's someone there to untie you. It's total genius.' -Jeff Murdock

Erin Jane
~Scarleteen Advocate~

Another problem i have is i don't really know what this involves. If anyone could give me a hand in telling me that, i would really appreciate it. Let me know if you have any first hand advice.

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'Steve, sex with two whole women, think of the advantages...they can't both fall asleep. If one of them suddenly leaves or punches you, you've still got one left. If one of them plays that old sneaking out of the window trick, there's someone there to untie you. It's total genius.' -Jeff Murdock

As for teaching others, like Celtic Daisys case, I once again get kinda confused. I mean when one starts teaching 'Wicca', there are all those traditions and politics to deal with. Between knowledge and wisdom, I think the emphasis should be wisdom. Knowledge is a nice supplement, but it's easy to get bogged down in. For example, why should it be such a big deal which directions are associated with which elememnts? It's symbolism, not fact, but yet I've known people to grow to hate eachother over such things. Blegh.

quote:

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Originally posted by Celtic Daisy:
...people simply don't want to take the time to understand what it is. People also tend to associate satanism with wicca, which makes absolutly no sense, because most pagans and wiccans don't believe in satan or hell, myself included.

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Hmm... I'll be honest that I don't really know that much about satanism, but I have known a few that considered themselves it's practitioners at one point or another. Now, I never had a heart to heart with them, but near as I understand, Satanism isn't necisarrily belief in or worship of Satan/hell. May sound strange at first, but then again not all witches fly on brooms, if you catch my drift . If my rough knowledge serves me, a focal point of satanism is self-empowerment. Really makes you look at self-help sections in a whole new light, huh? As we attempt to tear down misconceptions we feel are unjust, we musn't forget brethren who suffer similarly .

I've been told that satanists don't believe in the devil either, but i'm don't really know much about it.

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'You've got the eyes of ten women. Not in a jar! I wasn't accusing you. I just mean your eyes are really nice'-coupling

I'm a little confused about what you mean by the bad parts. And about wiccans hurting people, that's rare(except unfortunatly in a lot of teens who are in it for the magick) part of the wiccan rede is: an harm it none, do as ye will. I don't know any wiccans who would try and cause harm to people using what they know.

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'You've got the eyes of ten women. Not in a jar! I wasn't accusing you. I just mean your eyes are really nice'-coupling

For example, I had a friend who was defending an abortion clinic during the repeat of the Summer of Mercy. Nowadays he can't really talk about christians without his voice raising a little and his blood running a little warmer. It was traumatic for him, and it can seem easier to say that it is the darker side of a specific group than to say it is a darker side of humanity. I have had traumatic experiences with one particular wiccan priestess, and have a similar quickening of anger when I think about her, but the thing is, she was a dysfunctional individual.

Nonetheless, even considering the presence of dysfunctinal individuals in the wiccan community, I have a hard time seeing widespread wiccan child abuse. So this makes me wonder, what you mean when you say

quote:

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where they council children of abused witch families

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"He was perfect, if you looked past all of his flaws."

I'm kinda stuck between religions right now.
I used to be Wiccan, but I was never really comfortable with some of the ideas. I studied it for a few years, but the spiritual aspects appealed more to me than the spells. I found the spells acually took away from my sppiritual experience.

I find myself being drawn more and mroe towards the religion I grew up with, the United Church. While the basic ideas of Christianity are there, it's also much more liberal in policy, and accepting of other aspects of different religions.

I'm in the same place in respect to being between religions, Cup. And, what I've found that has worked best for me is not labeling myself. I'm quite contented with just doing what I feel is right spiritually, and not saying that I'm this or I believe in that.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share my perspective.

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Tim

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'You've got the eyes of ten women. Not in a jar! I wasn't accusing you. I just mean your eyes are really nice'-coupling

and as to this:

quote:

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But, you know, the person that posted this thread wanted opinions, so I gave mine.

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I started this thread because when I did, there were several disorganized threads discussing Wicca and Paganism. Just remember that as with other areas on Scarleteen, this is a SAFE SPACE for discussion, not a place to argue or debate.

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~lemming, Scarleteen Advocate

Does something like the Crusades mean that Christians or Christianity is bad? Absolutely not. Does something like the Crusades mean that the basis of that religion would support those deeds? Absolutely not. Same goes here, and with nearly every group, religion, race or political party you can think of.

As a general rule, it's always best to look to the source of things, not to the few people -- or even many -- who use religion, or race, or political allegiance as a reason for doing awful things to others. If a given religion says "kill and maim people," then yes, I think it's safe to say that's something to be wary of, and likely not very positive. But that isn't the issue here, or with anything else like this.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

In my opinion, this matter can be traced all the way back to human nature, or at least all the way back to the problems of labels and stereotypes. Miz Scarlet brought up a point I was slowly trying to nudge into the conversation with the daycare abuse rumor-panics and satanic cult rumor-panics, because the issues are at least comparable, if not identical.

The thing is, there are at least two ways I can think of that would produce "witch families" that fit PeaceAngel's description of them. Either the dysfunctional groups in question labaled themselves witches or somebody else labeled them witches. If they are amoung the few-but-infamous folk who are deluded enough to use witchcraft to commit malice, there are comparable dysfuncitonal groups in every other religion. I would go as far as to say that there are comparable dysfunctional people in any group, regardless.

If they have been labeled by others, well, then they make an even worse example of witches in general. Misunderstandings of this nature have occured all throughout history. If someone searches for society's demons, they will, if desperate enough, create ones that did not actually exist. I'm not judging the folks at Shodare, but unless my knowledge and wisdom (sparse as it may be) mislead me, mislabeling of this size is probably due to a general misunderstanding of the topic amoung those in question.

In short, my 'witch' is probably not PeaceAngel's 'witch'. Comparable statements could probably said for most groups that have social stigma attached to them, which would make a long list indeed. I would like to add that I find it very reassuring that PeaceAngel is still willing to accept wiccans despite the negative things that have been said about them! ::applauds::

::glances at post:: wow. Before I become too long winded I should place in a plug for a really good non-fiction book I read last semester for a research paper. Ben S. Victor's Satanic Panic. Excellent book, well written, very informative on this subject. I highly recommend it! err... I continue writing for days, but this post already feels so long. Maybe some day I will write a book. heehee...

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'You've got the eyes of ten women. Not in a jar! I wasn't accusing you. I just mean your eyes are really nice'-coupling