not that it matters, but in case anyone cares i am 14, female, and maybe bi? i donno quite yet.

anyway that's not the point, my question is, do you believe that sexual orientation is a choice or is it something you're born with, or something else?

i know everyone has different opinions and beliefs and i respect them all. i am not trying to get an answer for myself, i'm just curiose what you think. i love debating and hearing new opinions and i think this is a very interesting topic. i thought this would be a good place to get some new points of view.

For the most part Jessie, from a standpoint of sexuality study, sexology and psychology, there is pretty solid evidence abounding that it is not a choice, but is instead to some degree fixed by a combination of genetics, sexually developmental influences, personality and identity.

(Which is why the term "orientation" is used, not "preference.")

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

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"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."

For instance, sociopaths cannot be "cured" by therapy or by drugs. Many paraphilias are psychological or experiential, but also cannot be "cured," or simply go away when someone changes their minds. Personality traits are often developed very early in childhood, and remain during one's lifetime, even when they attempt to change them.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

"If you're a bird, be an early early bird --
But if you're a worm, sleep late." - Shel Silverstein

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"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."

There are also centers for penis enlragement that have no basis in reality, fact nor long-term effectiveness. There are "centers" for lots of things.

Bptist has been told explicitly not to post in this area of the boards again. If he does not follow that advice, he will be banned from the boards.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

i'm sorry this is upsetting you, but i don't understand why. as i said before i am just interested in hearing other people's opinions. i was just trying to have an interesting conversation about a topic that interests me.

as to Baptist, unless there is background information i don't know about, i don't see the problem. he is just stating his point of view. personnaly i don't agree w/ him, but i asked for everyone's opinion, and i said i would respect them all.

so please don't get too afended, i know this is kind of a touchy subject for some people, but that's is also what makes it fun to discuss. if people have strong opinions about something, they will get involved. i was not trying to start any trouble by asking this question, so i'm sorry. i don't mean to be rude but, if this bothers you, don't read it!

In other words, you might ask if heterosexuality is something people choose, or be able to change their minds about from day to day.

Again, nearly every bit of vibale sexological and psychological evidence of the last thirty years minimally has shown that it certainly is not "choice" (inluding some interesting studies done of twins a little while ago which showed that when one twin was a certain orientation, the other twin was about 40% as likely to ALSO be that orientation), per se, but a very complex combination of numerous factors, of which the choice of sexual identity and lifestyle(which is not orientation) is but one.

But I think you'd find that this conversation can be less hot-button when you make it inclusive to include all kinds of orientation, and though to my reading you were being inclusive, it being in this area rather than the general boards may have made it seem otherwise, and Baptist's comments were NOT inclusive, but only addressed one orientation (and had also been asked due to other posts not to post in this area).

So, if everyone involved can keep it non-discriminatory, I agree that it certainly can be a productive and interesting thing to discuss.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

"If you're a bird, be an early early bird --
But if you're a worm, sleep late." - Shel Silverstein

I'm not a scientist, so I have no idea how much sexual behavior is inherited. Possibly some people are born gay, or straight, or whatever. I but I am also quite sure that some people are what they are entirely because of things they have experienced.

Just to distance myself from people like Baptist, I will say that this is my view for straights as well as gays. I believe that heterosexuality is not more natural than homosexuality, it is simply more prevalent and socially acceptable. I also think it applies to gender-- we are born biologically one sex, but I don't believe this in any way affects our behavior. We simply adopt the behaviors that are expected of our sex.

So I wouldn't say that gender or sexual identity is exactly a choice. But I believe environmental factors play a large part. Perhaps, in SOME cases, there is a subconscious choice to behave differently from the majority. I would not rule this out in my own case.

Oh, one more thing. Even if sexual identity were a choice, I don't believe that would justify anyone's mistreatment of gays and lesbians.

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Brittany
Scarleteen Advocate

I think baptist is scary because he/she is posting anti-gay stuff in the gaydar zone, leading me to think that maybe they are a little, umm, confused (Ahh, the joy of euphemisms). I have no problem with heated debate about whether or not homosexuality is a result of nurture or nature, but a bit of what Baptist said went a little too far. I have a lot of buttons and too many of them were pushed.

Also, if homosexuality is inherited I think maybe there would be no new gay people. I am sticking with the genetic, not inherited, part of nature on this one.

You can certainly be nurtured (or not) and influenced by family behaviours, and most psychologists agree that that is one major part of many in terns of individual sexuality, but genes are how we directly inherit anything.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

Granted, it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose to date people who you have no interest in, but I do think it's an interesting argument. I don't think I agree with it in the terms she put it -- but I definitely think that sexual orientation is way way way more complicated than JUST biology or JUST personal preference.

Lots of gay activists say that homosexuality is not a choice, and therefore just a normal human variation and not an "immoral lifestyle" or anything. This definitely furthers the cause of gay rights, and this is what I personally think -- it's not bad, it's just different from what is apparently "the norm." On the other hand, because of this statement a lot of the gay-rights rhetoric comes out sounding like "of COURSE it's not a choice! Why would anybody *choose* to be gay when it's so horrible?" This is harmful, I think. There isn't anything wrong at all with being GLBT or anything in between -- actually, it's kinda fun.

Note to self: You ramble too much! Go write your paper!!

What do you guys think?

I have been bisexual fo as long as I've recognized being "sexual" at all (which'd be over 20 years at this point), and I know that walking down the street people simply walk by at times who I find attractive, as happens with anyone. If, theoretically (again, I defer to sexology here, that orientation is fixed to some degree by several factors), I could "choose" NOT to be attracted to any of those folks, want to tell me *how*?

I'm not being snippety, I'm simply earnestly curious anytime anyone suggests all aspects of sexuality might be choice as to HOW -- in practice -- that really can be. Imiagine, for instance, how much happier many people in arranged marriages could be if they could simply "choose" to be attracted to spouses that they simply do NOT find attractive in any way.

Amd if you can tell me how, and orientation and attraction IS a choice, then how could one orentation be a choice, yet another could not be?

(Again, not sexual identity or the label one chooses, but actual orientation)

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

what I think is that sexual orientation is not reducible to just one factor, and neither can it be defined by just one scale -- it's always going to be an oversimplification. So I don't think that sexual orientation is a choice or a "lifestyle" ... but I'm really not sure about the inborn, innate fact of one's existence thing either. Sexual orientation is often fluid, and can change over time (NOT in the sense that like, you go to an ex-gay camp and get "fixed"... just, like, some people like one gender at one point and later in life, they are primarily interested in another gender, for example).

so basically I'm just being The Mad Equivocator here. hope I cleared up any confusion resulting from the... limited coherence of my last post. granted, I'll *always* be confused about this subject...

And it being of various factors is the current sexological standpoint. if you're curious, what most psychologists and sexologists include in those factors which "create" orientation and individual sexuality are things like:

- genetics
- early childhood sexual experiences and influences (for instance, ppeer experiences, sexual ideology and feelings as taught by the family and community, etc)
- developmental sexual experiences (which varies from person to person in different stages of development)
- and personality overall, which again, it fluid in some respects, and somewhat fixed in others

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

I think it's a choice. Right now. I havent made any conclusions, and I dont think it's a choice for everyone, but I think its very possible to be equally comfortable with both sexes, not consider yourself bisexual, and then decide. i can be straight, i can be bi, i can be gay. not that important to me. no big discovery of oneself.

Sometimes I think I'm really really just babbling. Sorry, this is from a girl who is convinced she's straight but still finds other girls sexually attractive and persues relationships with them...

My big thing is that, as someone who is straight, I feel I'm making a choice when I'm with other girls. And since I AM sexually, not just physically, "i think shes cute" but SEXUALLY attracted to them, it's not like I'm just a straight girl messing with another girl for kicks, it's like I'm, at that moment, CHOOSING to be bi, or gay or something.

Now that I've successfully confused MYSELF....

I think that goes for anyone. I choose who I am going to be sexual with (i.e Bob vs Jim), but I am attracted to who I am attracted to. I don't purposefully go out thinking I am going to be attracted to this person, or that gender. I don't plan it out. it is not a conscious choice.

I think many of us have been in the situation where someone has told you that they liked you. Swell person that they were, you weren't attracted to them. You can't force it, you can't choose to be attracted to them if you are not.

For me my sexual attractions are for both men and women and have been for sometime. I don't really care how this tendancy to have certain attractions came about (it could be all the apple juice I drank as a child, for all I know).

I think it all comes down to the fundamental way of thinking, is diversity OK with you or is it not? If it isn't what should we do with people who are different than what we deem acceptable?

I am of the thinking that diversity is good, sexually, racially, ethnically, culturally, religiously, spirirtual, gender-wise, etc....

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Louise Lalonde
-Scarleteen Sexpert & Volunteer du Jour

ORIENTATION is a term which is used to describe a general gender attraction base. In other words, your orientation is what gender you are *mostly* attracted to (not whom you become engaged with or date). If you are mostly attracted to those of the same sex, your ortentation is considered to be homosexual. If you are mostly attracted to the opposite sex, it is considered to be heterosexual. If your attraction base includes both same and opposite sex people, you are considered to be bisexual or pansexual. In other words, it really *is* arbitrary, and someone else (like a psychologist studying you, for instance) can assign it to you. And it is -- sexologically, psychlogically, medically -- NOT consiidered to be a choice. People are attrracted to whom they are attracted, and sceintists have beentrying to figure out *why* for eons. But the fact of the matter is that what is found is that nearly all people truly cannot *make* themselves attracted to someone to whom they are not, and that is scientfically measurable in terms of arousal and response.

IDENTITY on the other hand, is what you assign to yourself based not only ON your orientation (your base of attraction) but on what sexual choices you make in terms of what partners you choose, and what you choose (if anything) to call that. In other words, you may be homosexual, but not identify as a lesbian or a dyke. You may be heterosexual, buit choose NO sexual partners and be celibate, but that does not mean you are not a heterosexual. You may be bisexual, but choose only male or female partners, or be sexually active with only one group or another, and thus live a heterosexual lifestyle, or identify as a straight person.

So, when it comes down to what those terms mean in common use and in proper usage, that is what they mean. They are not one and the same.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

"If you're a bird, be an early early bird --
But if you're a worm, sleep late." - Shel Silverstein

~KittenGoddess

So, bettie, in sort of a reply, to some extent, I think I teach myself to be attracted to people. YES, there are people I am just naturally attracted to... but surprisingly... not a lot. It's almost as if I'm.... like almost asexual or something. I dont have much natural attraction for EITHER sex, but in my head it's like a scientific assessment... like "ok her face is symmetrical, she's pretty... ohh see, now I think she's attractive... ok now i'll ask her out"

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*Read my diary

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quote:

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Originally posted by bettie:

For me my sexual attractions are for both men and women and have been for sometime. I don't really care how this tendancy to have certain attractions came about (it could be all the apple juice I drank as a child, for all I know).

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Nope . . . couldn't be the apple juice. I can't stand it. I didn't drink any apply juice as a child and I'm still bisexual. Could it be the string cheese? I ate a lot of that.

quote:

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Originally posted by bettie:

For me my sexual attractions are for both men and women and have been for sometime. I don't really care how this tendancy to have certain attractions came about (it could be all the apple juice I drank as a child, for all I know).

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Nope . . . couldn't be the apple juice. I can't stand it. I didn't drink any apply juice as a child and I'm still bisexual. Could it be the string cheese? I ate a lot of that.

So basically, I feel that a persons orientation is not a choice, but is something that is a part of yourself.

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*^Lucky^*
Come check out what's goin on in Lucky's mind!

"At one point we decided to fight fire with fire. Well...basically...your house burned even faster."

It can be very sad sometimes (the prejudice that exists against homosexuals).

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*Read my diary

*Read my page