T O P I C R E V I E W
Member # 35643
posted 01-20-2011 05:18 AM
**I don't know if this topic is too disturbing/triggering to discuss here, if so, you guys can remove it.
I was just so disgusted to watch the news and hear about this man's charges today. The circumstances in his clinic sound appalling. I can't see how it was allowed to continue for so long, especially in a country where abortion is legal...
Member # 25425
posted 01-20-2011 08:41 AM
Oh, *sigh*. I hadn't heard of this yet and had to google it, and sadly, my first though was "the wingnuts are going to have a field day with this".
There's an article on it over at RHReality Check, which goes into why something like this could happen in a country where abortion is legal: http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2011/01/19/draft-doctor-performs-illegal-abortions-indicted-murder
Member # 3
posted 01-20-2011 09:50 AM
I think Amie's points on this in that piece, and from the others she quoted are so utterly (and tragically) on point.
I'm glad you posted about this here, eryn. I think events/issues like this are really important to discuss, particularly with all of the battles we have had around abortion and other reproductive health with heathcare reform here.
Member # 35643
posted 01-20-2011 11:08 PM
Thanks for the article.
Maybe this is a simplistic question..but if there is such an quality and safety control organisation as National Abortion Federation (NAF), then why couldn't all providers be required to be certified by NAF before they can practice? Why should there be such a difference in quality of care? [ 01-20-2011, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: eryn_smiles ]
Member # 3
posted 01-21-2011 11:27 AM
Oh, that's a complex question. I'll try and answer it, but I'm bound to fumble.
The long and the short of it is that while abortion clinics have a handful of different certification requirements, NAF is not one of them, and I don't see our government recognizing NAF in the way you're suggesting anytime soon because for that to happen, abortion would have to be way more destigmatized than it remains here. In other words, this nation would have to be a whole lot more pro-choice than it actually is, because NAF is an excellent organization which is very, very unapologetically supportive of abortion. The same can't be said for, say OSHA (there are some regs there clinics are obliged to follow) or some of the other certifications required of surgical centers in general, which abortion clinics often fall under. In other words, I'd say anti-choice politics are the big barrier to something like requiring NAF certification which, I agree, would be fantastic. I think antichoice politics even likely played a part in reports being ignored. If someone has the view, for instance, that women who seek out abortions deserve abuse or punishment, that's going to influence something like this a whole lot. But I think the obvious big problem here was that reports were made about this clinic which the state agencies per public health did not respond to appropriately or diligently. It may help to know that the state this happened in is exceptionally anti-choice, which may have been part of the issue, but it's hard to say for sure.
Member # 48252
posted 02-05-2011 11:49 PM
it really sucks that this happened. I was absolutely appalled at this story and so very very disgusted that this man not only practiced in my state, but in my city! I figured Philadelphia to be a more open city than that and i really hope this doesn't happen again. Personally I believe in life and would prefer that such choices need not be made, but I am firmly and unapologetically pro-choice (though I imagine my church wouldn't like that, but I really don't care). Personally, I would never have an abortion unless my health demanded it, and I mean never. It's not the baby's fault if I screw up or if I get raped (hope that never happens though). And I likely would suggest anyone I knew not to get an abortion, though I'd do my best to love and support them if they did. However, it is not anyone's, especially not the government's, right to force their opinions, political or otherwise on a woman about her body or child. She is the one who has to carry the child, she is the one who has to choose to abort, care for it or find adoption choices, which from what I've heard is not really all that nice, fun or enjoyable and plenty of people regret any of the three choices. I wish there was some way to get the child's opinion because it is unfortunate that they have no say in whether they come into the world or not or whether they do or don't stay with their biological family. But alas they don't and it is and always will be the mother's choice, the mother's decision and I believe it is not right for anyone to force them to do what they don't want. It angers me so much that it's mostly men who are putting laws through to force women to keep their children. They have never had to carry a child and there are so many single mother's nowadays that it's absolutely ridiculous and downright insulting to women that they push such things upon us.
Now, I do believe in life, as I said before. I believe babies have a right to live and there is a small part of me that believes if you're pregnant simply due to unwise choices and not due to say rape, abuse or simple lack of reproductive rights, then you have some responsibility to that child. However, it's still your body, your child, your choice. And for anyone who is the victim of abuse, assault, or deprivation of rights, personally I think God gets a bit insulted at trying to force those women to keep children they don't want and had no choice whatsoever in making the child. Is it not bad enough that they've been deeply violated, robbed of their dignity, innocence, and forced into a painful situation? Will you take away their choice to carry a constant reminder of their pain in their bodies, and potentially raise that baby? No, as much as I prefer the children to have life, I cannot condone anti-choice policies. It is not the place of anyone not in a particular situation to judge. Now, I do agree that some people should be denied abortions, because some people do it for really, really stupid and unfathomably selfish reasons. My cousin knew a girl who had an abortion for no other reason than to fit into a bridesmaid dress for a wedding she was attending in sixth months. No other reason whatsoever. That's ridiculous. I feel really sorry for the pro-choice advocates. That jerk doctor really provided insane fodder for the anti-choice people. Late term abortions are illegal for a reason, it's extremely painful and dangerous to the mother as we could see by the one woman who died during one of that doctor's abortions. And apparently several babies were fully alive and healthy, hence the murder charges. I really hope and pray that his other patients are ok, physically and otherwise. If the reason complaints about that place were ignored was because of jerks in the state office thinking those women deserved it...well I hope God pays them back for such cruel thinking seven times over. It really bugs me that so many violent or cruel anti-choice people claim to be Christians. I was raised Christian and from what I've read in my Bible and what I've been taught, even if you don't like people's choices, you just don't treat them that way. And I'm referring to many issues that are discussed here at Scarleteen, abortion, homosexuality, belief in other faiths, sexual rights, etc. I just don't believe it's Christ-like to call people names, harass or assault them, terrorize them, discriminate against them, believe they deserve mistreatment or otherwise harm and mistreat them physically or not. It's just not right. I hope I haven't offended anyone in any way with my ranting, please correct me if I have!
Member # 34135
posted 02-06-2011 04:05 PM
I am so disturbed- "State regulators failed to inspect his clinic" for years? And now states are trying to redefine what rape "means". Who the h*ll can say what rape "means" besides the victim?! This sickens me and is going to make the fight for choice even harder. I am spitting mad.
[ 02-06-2011, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Bonnie.N.Clyde ]