T O P I C R E V I E W
Member # 3
posted 12-14-2006 12:16 PM
Because some aspects of rape are so murky for many, I thought I'd repost a list created by blogger Biting Beaver.
I think this is a pretty apt list, though I recognize aspects of it are provocative (and angry, for obvious reasons). I don't want to alter someone else's words, so I won't, but I will say that my only issue is that it's a list that applies to a rape victim/survivor of any sex, and I wish it had been worded that way, though given it was a personal post written by a female survivor, I get why it isn't. So, while we know that that vast, vast majority of rapists ARE male, we also do know that while the majority of victims are also female, there are also a LOT of male victims and survivors as well (who again, have most often been raped by other men, but even though female-to-male rape is rare, there are exceptions to that rule, too). I'd suggest you read it understanding that these things often apply to male victims as well. (I do not, by the way, want arguments to happen in this thread, as it is in a support forum. The purpose of this post is to provide support for the umpteen rape survivors whofeel like -- or have been told that -- their rapes aren't "real," and could stand to hear a voice reminding them that they are.)
The Rapist Checklist Some things to remember... 1. You are a rapist if you get a girl drunk and have sex with her. 2. You are a rapist if you find a drunk girl and have sex with her. 3. You are a rapist if you get yourself drunk too and have sex with her. Your drunkeness is no excuse. 4. If you are BOTH drunk you may still be a rapist. 5. If she's alternating between puking her guts out and passing out in the bed then you're a rapist. 6. If she's sleeping and you have sex with her you're a rapist. 7. If she's unconscious and you have sex with her then you're a rapist. 8. If she's taking sleeping pills and doesn’t wake up when you have sex with her then you’re a rapist. 9. If she is incapacitated in any way and unable to say 'Yes' then you're a rapist. 10. If you drug her then you're a rapist. 11. If you find a drugged girl and have sex with her then you're a rapist. 12. If you don't bother to ask her permission and she says neither 'Yes' or 'No' then you could be a rapist. 13. You are a rapist if you 'nag' her for sex. Because you manage to ply an eventual 'yes' from a weary victim doesn't mean it's not rape. You are a rapist. 14. You are a rapist if you try to circumvent her "No" by talking her into it. She's not playing hard to get, and, even if she IS it's not YOUR responsibility to 'get' her. You're still a rapist. 15. You are a rapist if you manipulate her into sex when she doesn't otherwise want it. If you say, "If you loved me you’d do X" then you're a rapist. If you say, "All the other kids are doing it!" then you're a rapist. 16. If you threaten her, or act in a way that SHE thinks you're threatening her then you're a rapist. If you puff up and get loud and frustrated while trying to 'talk' her into sex then you're a rapist. 17. You are a rapist if you don't immediately get your hands off of her when she says 'no'. You are a rapist if you take your hands off of her and then put them back ON her after 10 minutes and she eventually 'gives in' to this tactic. 18. You are a rapist if you won't let her sleep peacefully without waking her every 15 minutes asking her for sex. Sleep depravation is a form of torture and YOU are a rapist. 19. If you're necking with her and you're naked and you've already gone down on her and she says 'No' to sex with you and you have sex with her anyway then you're a rapist. 20. If you're engaged in intercourse and she says 'No' at ANY point and you don't immediately stop then you're a rapist. 21. If she said "Yes" to sex with a condom and that condom breaks and you proceed anyway then you're a rapist. 22. If she picked you up at a bar looking for sex and then decides that she doesn't WANT sex and you continue then you're a rapist. 23. If she changes her mind at ANY point for ANY reason and you don't immediately back off or you try to talk her into it and get sex anyway then you're a rapist. 24. If you don't hit her and she says 'No' you're still a rapist. 25. If you don't have a knife or a gun or a garrote and she says 'No' then you're still a rapist. 26. If you're a friend of hers you can still be a rapist. 27. If you had sex with her the night before but she doesn't want morning sex and you pressure her for it anyway then you're a rapist. 28. If you're her husband you can still be a rapist. 29. If it's your wedding night and she doesn't WANT to have sex with you and you force or coerce her anyway then you're a rapist. 30. If she's had sex with you hundreds of times before but doesn't want to on the 101st time then you're a rapist. 31. If you penetrate her anally, orally or digitally against her will then YOU my friend, are ALSO a rapist. 32. Women do not owe you sex. 33. Buying her dinner does not entitle you to sex. 34. Paying her mortgage does not entitle you to sex. 35. Buying her clothing does not entitle you to sex. 36. Buying her lingerie does not entitle you to sex. It also doesn't mean that she has any obligation to wear that lingerie around you. 37. Spending any amount of money on her does not, ever, entitle you to sex. 38. Seeing her legs or cleavage does not entitle you to sex. 39. If she 'turns you on' you're not entitled to sex. 40. If she has ****ed every man in a 10 square mile radius and she doesn't want to **** you and you have sex with her anyway, then you're a rapist. 41. Her clothing is not a reason for you to rape her. Her LACK of clothing is no reason to rape her. If she's wearing a thong and pasties you STILL have no right to rape her. 42. If she's a prostitute and she says "No" then you're a rapist. 43. If she's a stripper and she says "No" then you're a rapist. Likewise, if she's a stripper and she's been rubbing against your &!#@ all night long and you follow her to her car and have sex with her against her will then you are ALSO a rapist. 44. If you watch a woman being raped without calling the authorities then you're as bad as a rapist and you may also be a rapist yourself. 45. If you don't fight rape then you accept rape. 46. If you don't believe a woman when she says she was raped then you're encouraging rape. 47. If you choose to remain friends with a man who raped a woman you are encouraging rape. 48. If you confess to the authorities that you raped a woman it does not exonerate you. You are not suddenly a model of good behavior. 49. If you ‘only’ raped one woman, you’re STILL a rapist. 50. You cannot tell who is a rapist by the way they look. Rapists are your friends, your brothers, your fathers and you won't know it. 51. Do not get frustrated with a woman if she doesn't trust you. SHE already knows that rapists don't wear signs on their foreheads. Something you think is innocuous SHE may find terrifying.
Member # 31502
posted 12-14-2006 12:23 PM
My ex use to try having sex with me when I was alseep ALL the time. Why is it considered rape? He was physically abusive therefore making him an abuser. So is he also considred a rapist???
Member # 3
posted 12-14-2006 12:26 PM
Did you ever tell your ex that you were OKAY with him initiating sex when you were asleep? Did he ever ask for your consent to this, and did you ever give it?
(For instance, I've had one or two partners I've lived with where we have both discussed and agreed that either of us felt comfortable with the other - if we got home when one was sleeping - we were okay with trying to wake the other up with an invitation to sex, but that pursuing that further required that the sleeping person DID wake all the way up first before sex ensued and gave consent then. And that if the sleeping person did not wake up or clearly be all the way awake, that it was a given that sex was a no-go.) If not, and he had sex with you anyway, then yes, that is rape, because a sleeping or unconscious person cannot give consent. Rape is sex in which one party has not clearly consented, from a position in which they are able to give that consent. [ 12-14-2006, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]
Member # 17567
posted 12-14-2006 04:27 PM
I think it's an important point to make that no means no, even if you said yes ten minutes before. I was raped under those circumstances, and it is just so horrible to have people respond that you said yes and then you changed your mind, so it's your fault for being an indecisive moo or whatever. It's my body, I have the right to say "get your mitts off" whenever I like.
Or the even more unbearable - "well, he was your fiance, he can't have raped you". If you say no, at ANY point, regardless of the situation, it's rape, whether they're your friend, a stranger or your husband of fifty years. It's so frightening how many people think that spouses or partners can't be rapists - that marriage "entitles" them to sex in some way. (I also like the point about saying neither yes or no, as a lot of rape victims do think "well, I didn't say no, but I didn't say yes either". It's so hard to prove this one in the courts, but it's so important to realise that if you've been in a situation like that.)
Member # 29269
posted 12-14-2006 04:50 PM
It's arguable that it's rape if you pay a prostitute to have sex with you, even with her consent.
Because, with those forced into prostitution through lack of money, the opportunity to choose whether or not to consent is removed. Since those who are already desperate enough to have to resort to prostitution feel they cannot afford to say no. Do you know if this is the situation of the prostitute you (general you, obviously) are having sex with? No. Do you know that it isn't? No. So it's rape.
Member # 3
posted 12-14-2006 08:04 PM
(I really want this here for support-based discussion, rather than theory, okay, Joseph? Even intended well, theoretical argument about what is or is not rape and why just isn't something someone looking for support wants to walk into.
I also am VERY uncomfortable with someone speaking for sex workers who has not been or is not one, or who is not, at the very least, someone who regularly talks to sex workers. They're -- I should say we're, really, since I used to do some forms of sex work myself -- invisible enough without others speaking for them.)
Member # 29269
posted 12-15-2006 07:58 AM
Sorry - I guess I was a bit worked up over this after reading all the
I Am Coming literature. [ 12-15-2006, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: smileyjoseph ]
Member # 29133
posted 12-17-2006 03:09 AM
Girl - Drunk to the point of throwing up.
Boy - Not drinking or drunk. Fellatio. Rape? Sorry I wrote this in this way, I just don't want to think about it too much.
Member # 31787
posted 12-17-2006 04:15 AM
Girl - Drunk to the point of throwing up. Boy - Not drinking or drunk. Fellatio. Rape? While I'm not a personal fan of some of the bias and inspecificity of the original list, though it's a good draft - yeah, I'd say your scenario is probably rape... For starters, I can't concieve of a person throwing up wanting anything that would enhance a gag reflex. From there, while I don't personally care if two tipsy people get it on, as long as they really want to be there - throwing up is a sign of abject alcohol poisoning, and the male in your scenario is probably a lot closer to having sex with someone who is in or near a literal coma then with someone lightly intoxicated but with the majority of their wits (or consciousness at all) about them. Last but not least - stuffing large objects down the throat of a person who is vomiting is a *really* good way to make sure someone dies by choking on their own vomit. 's probably not a good idea... So I'd say... yup. The boy probably raped the girl.
Member # 3
posted 12-17-2006 10:22 AM
Awons: if this is about you, do you need any help?
Member # 29133
posted 12-17-2006 04:57 PM
Thankyou for the concern :] I don't need any help though.
Member # 29275
posted 01-12-2007 08:48 PM
is it rape if you were asleep and woke up to some one by your bed touching you and more. but your too scare to move to speak, to yell or scream. And then later don't say anything becuase you think it was not real, or told yourself it wasn't real. But the next night it happened and the next night it happened. But you still said nothing?
Member # 5375
posted 01-12-2007 11:12 PM
Yes it is. If you are asleep you cannot give consent and no one should be doing anything to you, even things you'd agree to do if you were awake, without your explicit consent.
Member # 33147
posted 04-10-2007 01:51 PM
I went to the police when I was raped. I asked my mom and she said it was rape. I thought in my mind it was rape. We were at his house and he wanted sex we were making out and he wanted more. I said no he told me he wouldnt take me home if I didnt have sex. (I was only 15 and I was afraid to miss curfew he was 21) he kept nagging me and I said yes. When he started it hurt horribly I told him to stop and he just pushed me down into the bed and kept going while I cried and plead with him to stop. The police however said that this was not rape it was a change of heart since I said yes in the first place they could do nothing. So after all of that I was not sure if it was rape I am still confused about it.
Member # 3
posted 04-10-2007 04:13 PM
Like you, when I was assaulted at 12, the police wouldn't even take my report, and so I certainly feel your agony and confusion with this.
But understand that our legal system carries with it many of the biases against women that all the rest of our culture has. Obviously, that is beyond tragic, but it is also simply a maddening reality. However, whether or not something makes for a solid rape case, or the police see an assult as meeting what their ideas of rape was doesn't change that you were raped. You said no, it wasn't heeded. You were purposefully worn down to giving consent, which isn't real consent. On top of all of that you were physically forced into sex. All of these things are rape and none of them are consensual sex. Saying yes to something and then changing your mind and being forced or coerced into what you do not want to do, or making out and then having someone think you owe them sex does not make for consent. And for the record? The police COULD have taken this to court. You were very unfortunately treated poorly by the justice system here. Given your age at the time and his, if nothing else, in most states you would have at LEAST had a solid statutory rape case. [ 04-10-2007, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]
Member # 33546
posted 04-21-2007 01:57 PM
"If you watch a woman being raped without calling the authorities then you're as bad as a rapist and you may also be a rapist yourself. "
This statement really haunts me because when I was molested by my older foster cousin (I'll call him Ted), my family and his were usually around. He even touched me while i was laying on a couch only a few feet away from my dad and uncle busy working on a computer. My adopted cousin once came in the room in which Ted was molesting me to tell us it was time for super. I have never discussed what happened to me with anyone especially my parents but I have always wondered if they knew. I was molested by Ted for approximately a year when my grandpa and grandma died within only a few months of each other. This meant we spent even more time at my aunt's house and therefore I saw Ted about every weekend. My family decided to take a big vacation together that summer to distribute the ashes of my grandparents over their favorite places. Tensions arose between my parents and the rest of my mom's family over issues concerning my grandparent's estate. One day near the end of our vacation, my aunts and uncles packed up and left for home. That was the last time I ever saw them again. I have always wondered if my parents knew what had happend to me because during our vacation i slowly became restricted from seeing certain cousins alone. We don't talk about that side of my family any more and my mom has warned me to not contact them. Despite being molested by Ted, I was still really close to the rest of that side of the family. I don't know if she was protecting me from their "influence" (thinking that they would cause me to rebel against her) or if she was protecting me from the issues of what happened to me. She claims that i am not allowed to see them (even though i am now a freshman in college) because "there are things I don't know about them" bad things from their pasts. I guess my quetion is if my parents, aunts, or cousins knew about me being molested by Ted, does this make them as bad as he is? I'm sorry for rambling on... I just haven't told this to anyone and i needed to get some of it out...
Member # 3
posted 04-21-2007 02:03 PM
Hey, no apologies, Milly.
It's pretty common that one thing we have to process when we survive any sort of abuse is dealing with the knowledge of others who we know or suspect may have enabled it, kept it silent, or not did everything they could to keep us safe. When we know those people -- and when, worse still, we trusted those people to care for us and keep us safe -- it's incredibly difficult to deal with. Ultimately, there's no one easy answer to your last question, but it's certainly something that at some pijnt, if you feel able, you can talk to your family about. It's very, very rarely an easy discussion -- I had a few like that way back when, and while they didn't net the results I wanted, I did feel stronger for having asked the quations and called everyone out -- but it's often worthwhile.
Member # 17567
posted 04-21-2007 05:49 PM
Situation theory: "victim" is exhausted from travelling, scared at being in an unfamiliar place (although with someone she knows and trusts) and is sick due to a bad travelling experience. Person she's with initiates sex, she doesn't refuse, but doesn't agree either, just lies there.
I don't know... does that count as rape? Or something else? Because of a lack of consent, but also a lack of a lack of consent... it seems kinda muddy.
Member # 3
posted 04-22-2007 09:59 AM
I'm not sure I fully understand the scenario in terms of you saying there are two lacks of consent: do you mean your impression is neither party was conseting?
Because if that's so, I'm not sure (unless there is another party involved) how sex could even happen when neither party is giving consent. So, before I answer, I want to be sure I'm clear per what you're asking.
Member # 17567
posted 04-22-2007 10:05 AM
Sorry, I was posting late at night and a bit muddled.
Person A doesn't ask if it's okay, just starts stripping Person B off and having sex. Person B doesn't react in any way - doesn't say yes, doesn't say no, just... lies there. That's what I was trying to say - Person B didn't consent, but neither did they NOT consent, if that makes sense.
Member # 3
posted 04-22-2007 10:18 AM
Then I'd say that's a form of rape, yes.
Ultimately, consent is some form of Big YES. We get in this weird space where culture and people are so screwy when it comes to sex -- where people have obligatory sex, or when they don't really want to, where consent got muddled to mean "if someone will let me do this to them," instead of "if someone wants to do this and is actively participating" -- that somehow, we have this odd no man's land between consent and non-consent where, IMO, there really shouldn't be one. When someone doesn't say yes, and doesn't "do" yes, when it comes to sex, it really is no. And if someone doesn't pose an invitation and seek consent, then it's generally pretty safe to presume they're intending to dismiss it, or have a good idea that if they aksed, the answer WOULD be no.
Member # 17567
posted 04-22-2007 10:20 AM
Yeah, I think that's where I was getting confused, in that "if someone will let me do this to them" space of weirdness.
Member # 3
posted 04-22-2007 10:24 AM
It's understandbly confusing, because ultimately, and obviously, sex is supposed to be a game for two (or three, what have you), where everyone involved is an active, enthusiastic participant.
However, given the obvious history -- especially for women, but also for other oppressed groups, and then too, for certain heterosexual couples pressured to procreate, etc. -- of sexuality in the world, different messages have often been sent, and plenty of groups have been told, overtly or covertly, that it is about duty, about obligation, about being PASSIVE, etc.