T O P I C R E V I E W
Member # 10005
posted 09-21-2002 11:32 AM
I need help in finding out whether my girlie is into girlies. She will not come out and answer me straight, I feel it's mainly because she doesn't want to hurt me... but it hurts more to feel that she isn't being honest.
I've tried to talk about it countless times in every way possible and 80% of the time, she strictly denies anything of the sort, but there exists the other 20% of the time when she has made comments, remarks, questions, etc... that are the reason I wonder...
I hold dear to me Christian teachings and she shows to share my beliefs... I need to say that very few things, if any, are as arousing to a man as 2 girls together & I yet to understand why, however I would never condone such activity with my wife or wife-to-be simply because the union of marriage is sacred to me... my girl knows this and I feel is another reason she isn't forthcoming...
What signs, symptons, behavior should I look for... what questions can I ask or topics can I bring up... to help me resolve this ? with my girl... it is too important for me to "let it go" & I feel that if she does have those interests, she should be honest, but mixed signals is all I get...
Since I care deeply for her, this issue reaches deeply within me - if she was just a girlie-friend, I know I would feel totally different, maybe not even care...
Can anybody out there relate, assist, guide, counsel...? I really need it and would be extremely thankful...
Member # 5375
posted 09-21-2002 01:46 PM
quote: Originally posted by str8-upster: What signs, symptons, behavior should I look for...
Whoa there. You make it sound as if this is a disease or something you cure. It is neither. These articles should give you a better idea of what bisexuality is all about:
The Bees and...the Bees - A Homosexuality and Bisexuality Primer Bi the Dozen - A Bisexuality Quiz
I'm not sure what "comments, remarks, questions" she made but things like thinking another female is attractive or wondering about being bi does not automatically mean that she isn't heterosexual. From what I'm seeing the problem might not be that she's bi, but that you don't trust her.
If she is bi and isn't being honest with you that's a problem as well - relationships are built on honesty. However, I can't say that I'd do anything different in her position. It doesn't sound like you would be very accepting of her sexuality and it can be devasting to be rejected by someone you care about.
At this point I'd say you have three options:
1. Trust that she's telling you the truth and stop questioning her about it. 2. Accept that she might be bi and there is nothing wrong with that. If she is bi and she sees that you're willing to support her she may be comfortable enough to discuss it with you. 3. Terminate the relationship. If you can't trust her or accept her I can't imagine how you can make the relationship work.
Member # 3
posted 09-21-2002 04:35 PM
Being bisexual does NOT necessarily mean a person MUST have partners of all genders.
Some people who are bisexual prefer monogamy, others prefer multiple partners....just like heterosexual people have different realtionship models they prefer or which work for them.
Bisexuality means a person IS ABLE to be attracted to people of both sexes. Let's put it this way: if you're heterosexual, it means you can be attracted to women as a group. Does that mean you want to be with all women, or that you can't be in a monogamous relationship because you are able to be attracted to other women besides her? Nope. Same goes for those of us who are bisexual.
To be plain, the way you're coming at this as you're expressing it would easily create an environment in which the average person wouldn't feel at all comfortable discussing this with you, or even exploring the topic (bear in mind -- she may nnot even KNOW what her orientation is). Talking about how arousing you find it, but how you wouldn't "condone the behavior".... oh boy, is that loaded. Lots of mixed messages there. Not a good environment for talking about orientation, because in some vein, you put pressure there for her to be bisexual (by saying it arouses you), and at the same time exert pressure not to (by sauing you wouldn't condone any same-sex sexual activity).
I'd suggest that really, this is more YOUR issue than her issue. Perhaps before you talk to her about it again you should read the article above, or do other reading on the topic, and really figure out how YOU feel about it, especially from a vantage point where you're more informed than you seem to be right now.
One small thing on the idea of two women being arousing to men: a lot of men assume that if a female partner were bisexual, and their partner had a female partner, that that would mmean threesomes or at least live sex shows. The reality of that is that that's not very common. Again, there is a difference between bisexuality and polyamory.
Heather Corinna Editor and Founder, Scarleteen My epitaph should read: "She worked herself into this ground."
-- Kay Bailey Hutchinson
Member # 10005
posted 09-22-2002 01:13 PM
I would like to begin by thanking you for your attentiveness...
Unfortunately, I feel I have failed to accurately describe my situation. Thus, the comments following my request for advice are a far cry from the guidance I am seeking.
I am persuaded to clarify why and what advice I am seeking.
First, I'd like to respond to a few comments posted by "ookuotoe". I never meant to sound as if bisexuality 'is a disease or something you cure'... I simply expressed my desire to confirm the truth surrounding my girlfriend's sexuality and for very good reasons I might add: 1)the fundamental reasoning behind the quest for truth... especially when it is directly associated with one's life... I'm sure you would not like to be unsure about your most precious relationship... 2)I do not share your opinions on the origin and nature of a bisexual/homosexual lifestyle, i.e. 'there is nothing wrong with that'... my moral convictions disagree with your point of view and I wouldn't be hospitable to the idea of involving such elements into my marriage, which is what I had planned to accomplish with my girlfriend... 3)As far as me accepting her sexuality if it is a bisexually orientated one, I would totally accept her decision... Who am I to do otherwise??? This does not mean in the slightest that I would condone it or be comfortable with it. 4)You are correct in mentioning the reality of distrust by my part... however, this became an issue once she began to exhibit behavior that reflected the possiblity of her bisexuality... 5)I also agree with you about the possibility of her not being totally forthcoming with me to avoid rejection, since she clearly knows how I feel about such issues and would result in a termination of our current relationship. Nevertheless, if this is the reason for her denial, I must say it would be the most selfish & inconsiderate of reasons. I'm sure if I was in her shoes & I was misleading, she'd feel deceived at the least...
Since there are several reasons why she might not be ready to discuss such issues, that is - if these issues even exist, I am motivated to seek a way to confirm the truth.
Miz Scarlet... I gather from your response that you were given the impression that I have suggested and pressured my girlfriend into a threesome, but this has never been the case. I have not put any pressure on her to be bisexual. I simply was stating my point of view concerning the activity of 2 women having sex and the arousing effects it has on most men. I then added that I share the same physical reaction with most men when viewing a lesbian act, however I explained that I did not fully understand why we react as we do to this activity and that I by no means condoned it. I never meant to insinuate that I pressured my girlfriend into such acts.
I just simply was hoping to find a little insight on ways to figure my situation out. I mean, there are things that only a woman can answer as there are things that only men can explain. Thus, I come to bother, if possible, you for a little help. I mean, is the act, attraction, fantasy, or curiosity of same-gender experiences common amongst women? do all girls try it? is it a "phase" that a few or many women go through? is it a secret most women share? is there certain behavior that bisexual women express to attract others? is there lingo or certain comments that would be characteristic? ... etc...
I hope you understand me...
Thanks in advance for you help...
Member # 3
posted 09-22-2002 02:02 PM
quote: Originally posted by str8-upster: I'm sure you would not like to be unsure about your most precious relationship...
I don't think most people would. But what someones orientation is, if they opt to be monogamous with you, has no more bearing, really, on your relationship than you opting, as a straight person, to be monogamous with another straight person unless YOU have an issue with it -- and then it's not about their orientation, it's about your issue. You seem to be saying in this post that you find any orientation besides heterosexuality to be unacceptable and not okay, no matter what the scenario. And that given, I'd say it certainly is important, if for no other reason than that your partner should not be involved with someone who finds her potentially morally reprehensible. That given, the easy solution to this is to be forthright, taking responsibility for YOUR feelings and say, "If you are not heterosexual, we cannot have a healthy relationship because I cannot accept you as a whole person."
quote: I do not share your opinions on the origin and nature of a bisexual/homosexual lifestyle
Just a note here: this is a GLBT safe space and support board. That given, I have to ask you to leave the propaganda at the door and work within our framework, and that of sexology and refer to orientation as orientation, not "lifestyle," as they are very different things (orientation discusses an attraction base and sexual identity -- lifestyle is a term which addresses one's actions in their lives). Thanks.
quote: As far as me accepting her sexuality if it is a bisexually orientated one, I would totally accept her decision... Who am I to do otherwise??? This does not mean in the slightest that I would condone it or be comfortable with it.
Actually, saying you could never be comfortable with it is saying you cannot accept it very clearly. Again, start by being honest with yourself with this. It is okay for a person not to be able to accept things about another person... but one needs to be forthright about that, especially when considering a long-term partnership.
quote: Miz Scarlet... I gather from your response that you were given the impression that I have suggested and pressured my girlfriend into a threesome, but this has never been the case. I have not put any pressure on her to be bisexual. I simply was stating my point of view concerning the activity of 2 women having sex and the arousing effects it has on most men. I then added that I share the same physical reaction with most men when viewing a lesbian act, however I explained that I did not fully understand why we react as we do to this activity and that I by no means condoned it. I never meant to insinuate that I pressured my girlfriend into such acts.
Saying you find those things arousing or fantasy fodder does, actually, exert a sort of pressure right there and then, especially when combined with saying you don't condone them. And it was that I was referring to.
quote: I just simply was hoping to find a little insight on ways to figure my situation out. I mean, there are things that only a woman can answer as there are things that only men can explain.
Really, I'd question that. Especially since the most modern scientfic data tells us clearly there are more than two genders, and social science makes clear that gender is more than biological.
quote: I mean, is the act, attraction, fantasy, or curiosity of same-gender experiences common amongst women?
It is common with all genders. The majority of people in the world have some attraction or sexual fantasy involving same-sex at at least one time in their lives, including people who idnetify clearly as heterosexual.
quote: do all girls try it?
All men and women do not engage in same-sex activity based on attraction in the same way that all mean and women do not pursue any number of sexual faantasies. Some people, however, do pursue such, especially those whose orientations appear to be bisexual or homosexual and whose sexual identities are bisexual or homosexual.
quote: People who are, however is it a "phase" that a few or many women go through? is it a secret most women share? is there certain behavior that bisexual women express to attract others? is there lingo or certain comments that would be characteristic? ... etc...
ACK! Okay, let's please let go of the attachment to this being a gnder issue, because it is not a gender issue. It is not specific to women, and I'm not sure why you're fixating on women so much when it comes to this. All genders can have a range of sexual orientation, attraction and/or activity. Those of all genders and orientations tend to express their sexuality in a vast myriad of different ways.
Orientation is not a phase. Sexual orientation, to one degree or another is fixed, and to another degree or another is fluid. And what people choose to DO, actively, in regard to their orientation is all over the map. It may be that a given person opts to have certain types of sexual partners or try certain activities that they may not choose to engage in through all of their lives. Most all people find people or things attractive that we mmay not 40 years from now. Any of this is a "phase" only to the extent that every day of our lives is a "phase."
Most people of all orientations do not tend to be furtive or secretive about their sexuality unless they are put in cultures or scenarios which create a need for secrecy for them to live peaceful, normal lives. And the majority of men and women in the world presently identify as heterosexual, though on the Kinsey Scale, most show at least some same-sex attraction in one way or another.
Women -- bisexual or otherwise -- are not Mata Haris. No one is sharing secret signs or using decoder rings (and if so, I'd like to know why no one sent my ring in the mail), or the like. Did you read the articles one of the volunteers pointed out to you above? If you did not, please do. If you did, I think maybe you need to read a bit more deeply, because the questions you're asking are answered there. To be plain, I think your own fantasies or paranoia or simple lack of being willing to even try to understand anything other than heterosexuality are really clouding your reason and common sense here.
I'm going to be as honest as I can: it sounds very clearly to me that you do not communicate well, at all, with your partner as an equal partner. I say that because looking to talk about her behaviour as if she were a subject for study, or seeking out secret motives AND not taking her at her word tend to express major communication problems. It also seems clear to me that you don't trust her very much, or perhaps, trust any women, based on some of the things you have said here. And those things are really far more major relationship roadblocks than a person's orientation is, unless a given partner simply in no way is within an attraction-base.
I see you reaching to look at all of these possible issues with her, but I see you looking very little at the major stuff, and at your own feelings about your wants, needs and this relationship. It also seems to me, based on what you've posted, that your questions are more about her meeting your criteria as a partner for you than about the two of you being right
for each other. And that right there is a BIG problem -- looking to make a partner meet your criteria in that way -- if what you want in life is a long-term healthy and mutuall partnership.
As an aside, can I ask where all of this came from? In other words, did your partner, perchance, state she found a certain woman attractive, or is she looking to date other women or expressing -- with no prodding from you -- the possibility she may be bisexual?
------------------ Heather Corinna Editor and Founder, Scarleteen My epitaph should read: "She worked herself into this ground." -- Kay Bailey Hutchinson
[This message has been edited by Miz Scarlet (edited 09-22-2002).]
Member # 1371
posted 09-22-2002 02:18 PM
I'm a little confused. Precisely what behaviors are you noticing that are leading you to suspect that she might be bisexual?
I mean, I identify as heterosexual, but that doesn't stop me from noticing women (and men, and intergendered people) who I find attractive. I can look at a woman and say "oh yes, she's attractive" and see why someone would find her sexually attractive. That doesn't mean that I want to have sex with her; just that I can see that she's attractive.
I've also, on occasion, read pornography that featured homosexual or bisexual activities and found it appealing. Didn't make me want to go have sex with women -- just meant that that writing pushed my buttons.
If I met a woman who I was sexually attracted to, or if I found myself being sexually attracted to people regardless of gender, then I would reconsider my orientation. But, since that hasn't happened yet, I consider myself straight.
Is that the sort of thing you're seeing from your girlfriend? Because, if it is, I can assure you that many hetereosexual women (and men) do not simply think about men (or women) -- they think about women and men, and can perceive them both as being sexually attractive without wanting or needing to have sex with them, or without finding that idea appealing.
And, quite frankly, if stereotypes were all I had to judge my partners' behaviors, I'd be suspecting my one boyfriend of being gay, since he does a lot of things that have been stereotyped as "gay male" behavior. However, I trust him to be honest with me. If that trust isn't there, then the relationship isn't really there.
Member # 1679
posted 09-22-2002 02:42 PM
Has it occured to you that maybe your girlfriend isn't bisexual? It sounds to me like you're only prepared to accept one answer to the question here. If she says she's not...then I'd suggest you lay off her and believe what she's saying. It's not your job to identify whether or not she's in the closet about anything, or to force her out of the closet. Her sexuality and/or preferences are about
her, not about you. I agree completely with what ErinK has just pointed out...I identify as heterosexual also, but I am perfectly able to notice other women and notice that they are beautiful or attractive. But that doesn't mean I'm going to run right out and have sex with them. Ya know, according to Kinsey, most people aren't 100% heterosexual, or 100% homosexual. Most people are some odd percentages in between.
And beyond that, I'm a little bit confused as to why it's ok for you to become aroused when looking at two women together, but it's not ok for your girlfriend to find another woman attractive. If you're trying to insinuate that it's something inborn with being male (or socialized during formative years), then I'm gonna have to disagree with you. I know quite a few men who feel nothing when seeing two women together. If you feel like it's ok for you to become aroused at two women, then it seems like it's only fair if your girlfriend can also be attracted to/aroused by whomever she wants...whether that's by thinking about another woman, or watching gay men, or what have you. It just seems like you're playing a one-sided game here...it's ok for you, but it's not ok for your girlfriend.
quote: Originally posted by str8-upster: <...> 2)I do not share your opinions on the origin and nature of a bisexual/homosexual lifestyle, i.e. 'there is nothing wrong with that'... my moral convictions disagree with your point of view and I wouldn't be hospitable to the idea of involving such elements into my marriage, which is what I had planned to accomplish with my girlfriend<...> quote: <...> 3)As far as me accepting her sexuality if it is a bisexually orientated one, I would totally accept her decision... Who am I to do otherwise??? This does not mean in the slightest that I would condone it or be comfortable with it. quote: <...>5)I also agree with you about the possibility of her not being totally forthcoming with me to avoid rejection, since she clearly knows how I feel about such issues and would result in a termination of our current relationship. Nevertheless, if this is the reason for her denial, I must say it would be the most selfish & inconsiderate of reasons.
I must confess that I'm also a bit confused by these statements. You want her to confess her 'bi-ness', but at the same time, you cannot accept her as a bisexual (if, indeed, she even is bisexual)? Or you say that you would accept it because you have no other choice, but you can't allow it in your relationship? Your statements seem to be a bit contradictory here. Do you plan on breaking up if she is bisexual?
To be frank, it doesn't sound to me like you're being particularly fair here. Things that are ok for you to be aroused by are not ok for your girlfriend to find arousing. As I said before, her sexuality is
hers and it has nothing to do with you. And it seems to me like you're being quite disrespectful toward her by demanding that she confess bisexuality (which is the only answer it seems you will accept even though she denies being bisexual). Maybe she's not bisexual. Maybe she is. And if she is, then that's her business and if you cannot accept that (or just deal with the fact that she can appreciate beauty in other people no matter what their sex), then maybe you need to find yourself another partner.
KittenGoddess Scarleteen Advocate (and Labia Lady)
"The whole world is full of morons...they just congregate on the internet cause it's easy for them to push the buttons."
[This message has been edited by KittenGoddess (edited 09-22-2002).]