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Author Topic: Raised in Gender Roles
moonlight bouncing off water
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I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I wanted to know what everyone on here thought. I might seem like I'm saying a lot of what I already know, but I'm doing my best to get out what I mean here.

That which follows in the square brackets is totally just one way of the following, I don't think that this is the only way this sort of thing proceeds: [From the moment that the ultrasound technician makes the best guess ze can about the sex of the baby, that potential child is now going to be treated and perceived differently based on zir sex. It is a boy? Is it a girl? Ask the friends and family of the parents to be. Then the baby shower gifts come, in blue for boys or pink for girls. Little dresses for the little miss to be or trucks for the little sir.] Even if every XX vulva-having person out there loved pink and skirts and make-up and every XY penis having person out there was "manly" and strong and loved beer and "sexy women" (which they don't!), gender stereotypes don't even take into account intersex people. Gender stereotypes are so far off-base that I can't even express it properly!

I have a vulva and I was raised a girl. Until I started thinking about all of this, I was comfortable as a girl and comfortable interfacing with the world as a girl. Now, I'm not so sure. The idea of IDing as a guy scares me in the same way that possibly being anything but straight scared me when I came to the realization that I like girls. It's totally about internalized phobias and prejudice. And this post is about trying to knock down those walls, to weed out the prejudice. I'm not a guy. That's my instinctive reaction. Even though I see a shirt I really like over on the guy's side of a store, I'm too freaked out to go over and look at it, what would people think (goes my internal thought process)?

Today my friend said something about me being a girl, like it was an irrevocable fact. I was really tempted to ask him how he could really be sure of that, but I was too scared to.

I recently was listening to CBC (a radio station) and I hear an article about Storm, a baby who's parents have decided to raise zir "genderless". Some new articles about it here and here . I think that not imposing gender on the baby is totally cool, but at the same time, by not letting anyone know Storm's sex, aren't they making it the most important thing about zir?

Another thing, today my friends and I were discussing a show which'd had a MTF woman on it. my friend (a different one than above) kept calling this woman "he", and I pointedly called her "she". I felt good that I, having watched the show quite a while ago, only remembered her as a girl. It was neat that I could respect someone's gender like that (okay, I feel stupid writing that, but I'll keep it in).

I have already decided that, at least for right now, sexual orientation doesn't exist for me. With all the genders and sexes of people, and the unsatisfactory definitions for sexual orientations, and my confusion about whether gender makes sense for me, it's just way too hard to pick a label. Plus it's empowering not to have to.

I don't shave my legs or my underarms anymore and it's an uphill battle with myself. It's about expressing gender and convenience and about, well gosh darn-it razors are expensive! I'm not comfortable with showing my unshaven underarms.

I dunno what I'm trying to say here. See, I'm really not a guy, but does that make me a girl? NO. I like being called she, but I hate that gender is binary. I wish I could pee standing up (but really, that's just about convenience). I like my pretty girly shirt I'm wearing, but I hate makeup.

I just feel like I've had "girl" taught to me, hell, taught straight into how I think about myself.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say here.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: I also find it hard to be platonically friends with guys. That is, I always think I have a crush on a guy even if I don't if I'm closer to him than mild acquaintance.

[ 03-28-2012, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: moonlight bouncing off water ]

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~moonlight

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Sans
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Love this thread [Smile]

I, too, am biologically female and was raised and taught to be a girl. However, I've started realizing a couple of years back that I'm quite comfortable identifying as a guy as well. I suppose that I've never been comfortable with being labelled a specific gender and then, subsequently, being told what my preferences and mannerisms are based on the stereotypical beliefs of what is "appropriate" for said gender, and what is not. I hate it, in fact.

I hate the colour pink. Yet, when anyone buys or gives me clothes, pink invariably ends up integrated in there somewhere, presumably because they assume that because I'm biologically female, I must like pink. In my opinion, the person doing the buying hasn't bothered to get to know my likes and dislikes as a person and, instead, is assuming that I have a preference for a certain colour because it is supposedly supposed to "represent" girls. I feel quite insulted, in fact, whenever folks define me by gender stereotypes because I see it as taking the easy way out. To me, it's easy to label people. It's easy to assume that they must like/dislike this or that. It's harder, though more rewarding, to try to understand people, establish a relationship with them, and appreciate them for who they are, whether cisgendered, transgendered, LGBTQUIA, you get the drift.

I am not inferring, though, that there is anything wrong with someone who identifies as female to like pink; I am simply saying that not all females do. Therefore it is inaccurate to assume that because one is a female, one likes pink. And vice versa for males too.

I have also, while shopping for clothes, seen stuff over in the guy's section that catch my eye. I want to go over there and try them out. But I just feel so ashamed every time. I was taught that girls should stick to clothes that are meant for girls, or else there is something inherently wrong. But it's not me who is wrong for wanting to break out of gender stereotypes. What's wrong are the stereotypes themselves.

In my opinion, said stereotypes are reinforced by the established perception of what is defined to be beautiful for genders in society. To illustrate the futility of relying on stereotypes and perception of beauty as measuring sticks and determinants for one's identity, both stereotypes and perceptions of beauty shift and change over time. For instance, just a couple of hundred years ago, voluptousness was considered to be the beauty ideal for women whereas, today, women are pressured to be thin. The clothes designed reflect these beauty standards. And women are expected to wear those clothes in order to adhere to societal expectations of what women should be and look like. But what if my personal definition of beauty used to mold my own image differs from that of societal norm? How is that wrong, I ask?

Can't I carry out what I think to be the best for me without having to endure discrimination and criticism? Why do I necessarily have to define my gender or sexuality by what others believe to be beautiful and right?

Those are some of my thoughts.

[ 03-28-2012, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: SansNom ]

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"Sneak away, sneak away / If the fate is too sad / You are not a flower of hell / That kind of place... / Don't become lost, don't become lost... / Or you won't be able to grasp the entangled hand / The cry also has a limit...." - Naraku no Hana

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WesLuck
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And how about this one - it used to be the GUYS that wore pink. This one only changed relatively late in the current human story. So that immediately makes any reference to not wanting to wear pink if you're a girl immediately irrelevant, and that so-called "disorders" where people think they are the other gender, are not disorders, just a normal part of evolutionary variation.

[ 03-29-2012, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: WesLuck ]

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Johann7
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You sound exceptionally healthy and self-aware with respect to gender roles, moonlight bouncing off water. Generally, I think it's a bad idea to contort ourselves to fit other people's ideas of how we SHOULD be (beyond ideas of common human decency - I very much support the idea that we shouldn't do things to hurt other people if we can help it) if that's not what we want to be. I've always tried to be the sort of person I think is best for me, and let other people think what they will. Doing so *might* be easier for me than for you, since I was born with a penis and raised as a boy/man (sort of - my mother tried to not enforce any gender roles, while my father was less comfortable with gender ambiguity, so I sort of split the difference: for example, I wore 'boys' clothing, but had long hair and was frequently identified as a girl; however, these days I'm usually read as a man, so that grants me a certain degree of cultural privilege), although people's responses to men who don't follow strict gender roles can be extremely negative. My friends are people who are cool with me as I am, and people who aren't I dismiss as not worth my time (that may be unfair, but unless I'm in a mood to do so, I really don't like to be dragged into debates with bigots).

Gender is different across time and cultures, as well as for any given individual, so the important thing to figure out is what YOU are comfortable with, and just go with that. Take the pieces of masculine and feminine gender that you like, and discard the rest. Identify in the way that makes the most sense to you (with the understanding that some people might not accept you identity - but really, what they think usually isn't that important). It's also okay to change your gender identity/label - you don't have to pick something that's going to stick with you for the rest of your life. If you feel like being a boy on Monday, a girl on Tuesday, a woman on Wednesday, genderqueer on Thursday, androgynous on Friday, a man on Saturday, and I-reject-all-labels-I'm-just-ME on Sunday, that's fine (great even! And anyone who tells you that that's a problem is telling you it's a problem for THEM, not for YOU).

Also, identifying as, and being accepted as, a particular gender doesn't mean you HAVE to do every single thing that's stereotypical/normative for that gender. If you want to identify as a girl or woman because you like the pronoun "she" and 'girly' shirts, but you don't like shaving body hair, then feel totally free to identify as a girl and not shave (what we do with our own bodies really only impacts other people when we're becoming VERY intimate* with someone - different people are going to have different preferences, and if someone want you to do something with your body that makes you uncomfortable, that person may well not be a good person with whom to become intimate). Gender (even biological gender a.k.a. 'sex') is a socially-constructed category set, so there's nothing intrinsic to any of the categories, and there are an unlimited number of ways to play with or subvert them.

It seems like you probably get a lot of this already (I don't mean to sound like I'm telling you anything you already know because I assume that you don't know it), but I wanted to make sure it's completely clear what I think around these issues, so you know that there's someone (another someone!) who thinks your thinking and even confusion around this stuff is exactly right.

*I'm using the term "intimate" not as a euphemism for sexual activity of any kind, but to mean exactly that, as there as physically-intimate activities that some may or may not define as sexual activity for which the conditions of our physical bodies may matter to the person or people with whom we're being intimate.

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Robble Robble Robble!

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moonlight bouncing off water
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Thank you all. I really appreciate what you're saying. And johann7, I love what you're saying about it being okay to I'd differently every single day if I so choose.

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~moonlight

I am ME and that is the only label I need.

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moonlight bouncing off water
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Now for the long answer. First off I totally don't mind if you say something that you think I already know, because there's totally a lot a don't, and I don't mind having what I do know reinforced.

I don't talk to people ever. Not as ME. I talk to them as a false me, a pretend but similar person who I'll never really let them get to know anyway, and yet I'm not even myself on here. I feel like I am taking advantage of Scarleteen as a resource since I come here with every little thing in my life but this is really the only place I feel comfortable being candid.

It's not that I feel like a guy. It's not that I feel like a girl either, which I do. It's that I don't really like the concept of gender, binary or nae. It really just seems like it creates a huge headache that isn't worth it. (And I get that that isn't applicable to everyone, just my person feelings).

I want to be comfortable in my body, and I don't want it to be ruled by should-be-s and stereotypes. I want to be open with myself and let myself know that if I'm not 100% cisgender (which doesn't even seem possible), that it is okay. And yet I keep hitting these walls. I am confused because I don't know what thoughts and feelings are because I've been taught to feel that way, taught to be that way, and what are really, irrevocably, me.

I can't tell if there are things that I am doing or not doing based on my perception of my gender.

And I don't want to steal the thunder from other people who are feeling this way in a much more profound way than I am. I feel like the way that I feel isn't real. I feel like I'm not really someone questioning her gender. But I guess that I never really feel like whatever it is that I am, if I didn't suspect I'd ever be whatever that is.

I feel like I'm just making a fuss over nothing, posting so that I'll have something to do.

But there really is, I think, part of me that is struggling. But it's just so hard. Because even though my parents certainly did not teach me about being gay in a way that I would have liked, they at least told me that it was something possible and that if I was that it was okay. But they never really even mentioned anything about gender. Any time they talked about non-genderconforming folks it really was like they were talking about some external group that I would never be a part of.

This is almost the first time where I am open with myself and let myself genuinely consider the fact that I might not be, well a girl in every way.

I've certainly never followed female stereotypes, but I've really looked at that more through the lens of feminism rather than through the lens of gender. It really does make things different.

I'm starting to try to get better at self esteem and stuff, and I really am. It's just that I'm scared of so, so much stuff. Scared of failing, scared of getting hurt, scared of doing something wrong. Being considered stupid, or lesser. I am working hard to battle that. I'm not afraid all the time anymore. And yet I still check the corners for the boogey man before I go to be and I always look back at least 4 times when I walk away to make sure that I don't forget anything. I used to obsess over every social inteaction, but I'm not so bad anymore.

Wow, sorry, this is coming out looking a lot more like a diary entry than a post.

I guess I'm just trying to accept me, all while figuring out who that is.

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~moonlight

I am ME and that is the only label I need.

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thumb tack
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woah moonlight. I had to reply because your last entry so described how I feel. It's not about gender for me, but I have periods of time when I have no sense of myself anymore - it lasts for weeks, sometimes months. I also feel like my concerns aren't real, like maybe I'm just trying to get attention. I can't tell if the things I do come from the real me or not. In fact, I often think there is no real me.
Sorry to interject in your conversation about gender, but I'm really shocked to hear someone else describe feeling like that.

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moonlight bouncing off water
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That's totally cool thumbtack, and I'm starting to realize that while gender is still definitely a factor, it really is an issue about everything I have ever thought or believed. There are certain things I know without a doubt. But there are very few of those.

Yesterday I was talking with a good friend about, well about just about everything. Mostly, we talked about God and about right and wrong. I myself have never believed in any God, but talking to my friend yesterday, let's call him Ben, I was actually able to carry on a positive conversation about God and religion. We were both very positive and receptive about the other's point of view, and could actually see, in whatever limited sense, where the other was coming from. It was really neat. And it got me to thinking, what if I'm wrong? As much as I have tried to be open with myself about gender and sexuality and a whole other host of things, the existence of a deity is certainly something that I have been incredibly close minded with.

The conversation with Ben certainly went some places that were less constructive. And sorry but this is getting totally of the topic of gender and if anyone wants me to move this post to a more appropriate topic I can. While I really appreciated Ben's openness with regards to religion (well, about as open as open as a Conservative Christian in the isolated small town area we live in can be) he was pretty darn closed on some other stuff (although at leased he admitted he was being closed minded about it). Like abortion. I myself am on the fence about how I feel about abortion, but I know for certain that I feel that everyone who can get pregnant should have the right to make that choice for themselves and that no one should be able to make that choice for themself. Unsurprisingly given how religious and exactly as the bible says it Ben is he expressed feeling that abortion is wrong. He even went so far as to suggest that pregnant people should not be able to make that kind of decision for themselves since they are facing so much exterior pressure and are therefore "not themselves". Which is totally outrageous and wrong.

Then we started talking about gender and sexuality. And while with everything else Ben had at least had a reason for how he felt and what he considered right or wrong, he simply stated that he had always thought that being gay is wrong and likewise that being transgender is wrong. I really did try to talk to him about it, and the conversation never turned into a shouting match or anything, but Ben really seemed to have no reason for it. He told me that while he feels it is okay to have gay thoughts the wrong part comes from acting on them. And then he figured out I'm queer. Oddly it didn't change even a little how he acted towards me and he said that he feels that gay people are worth just as much as straight people and that he isn't going to not associate with them or anything, but that he feels that "what they are doing" is fundamentally wrong. Those things I described in detail, I don't agree with him even a little bit on. But it was interesting to have a conversation with someone who's viewpoint was so very different from my own. I think what made that conversation hard for me, beyond listening to someone say in general terms, that a part of me is wrong unless I ignore it and that I should get to make reproductive coices for myself, the conversation was very open, very frank and neither of us sugar coated anything.

Although Ben's viewpoints are very radical, he earnestly believes them and he isn't using them as a means of hatred. Though I know hatred is bad in any form, I can hate people I don't know for saying that being gay is wrong, but I can hate Ben for it. I can't even be really mad at him. If anything I feel sorry for him and especially sorry for any kids he may have if they're queer or simply not close minded. And I'm even not that sorry for him. Even after listening to all he had to say, all the things so diametrically opposed to how I feel about everything, I came out of the conversation liking Ben a little bit better and admiring that he is doing what he thinks is right with his life. He does not drink and he does not party, which are both values that are hard to find in friends, and this conversation went on while we were studying, at school after hours, on a Friday night, for an optional Math Test/Contest put out by a University. My other friends aren't like that. My other friends would have giggled when I said penis or vagina (which I said just to make it clear what I meant by male-to-female or female-to-male) but Ben didn't.

I'm not sure what I'm saying here, but it's just so strange that I don't dislike Ben after that conversation, I really would have thought that I would have. If anyone has any thoughts on that they would be much appreciated.


NOTE: To be clear, I'm pro-choice and I have no issue with LQBTQA etc folks, I am one myself. The radical and close-minded stuff above is all Ben's thoughts and feelings.

[ 03-31-2012, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: moonlight bouncing off water ]

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~moonlight

I am ME and that is the only label I need.

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Jill2000Plus
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I don't really know what to say, but if I met Ben, I would dislike him, I don't care how strongly he believes in what he believes in, he's ignorant. And I don't see what's so closed minded about not believing in god. There is no scientific evidence or logical argument in favour of the existence of god, so I don't believe in god. And the second I find out someone believes that it's wrong to be LGBTIAUQ and enjoy having consensual sex with those you are attracted to while you're at it, or that it's wrong to have an abortion, I know that person can't be my friend, I won't admire them, I'll just barely be able to cope with being around them, and I absolutely will be angry about it, if I'm not too busy crying and having self harming thoughts.

All I can think right now, and I think this quite often, is that if this is what it's like to be a neurotypical person that "understands others' points of view" and all that, then I'm glad I have autism and don't spend all my time thinking about how to better understand bigots instead of thinking about how to stay away from them and protect their children from the damage they do. And I would feel sorry for him rather than admire him, it doesn't matter what the "subtle nuances" of what they believe are, I can't admire someone like that.

I am saying all this because I'm sick of being pathologised by people who accuse me of lacking empathy because I'm not endlessly fascinated and interested in the pweshus fee fees of people who don't think I should have the same legal and/or moral rights as them. I don't violate people's rights, but I don't feel any obligation to walk on eggshells trying desperately to avoid offending someone who uses their religion as an excuse for their ignorance. Just being around people like that triggers me into a spiral of self hatred and panic. No matter how mildly they express their view that gay is not ok, it's still wrong and it's them that have made my life and many other people's lives filled with suffering that could have been avoided.

I had to express this because you are talking about the concept of "everything you have ever known or believed", and I constantly paranoidly torture and bully myself telling myself I am wrong about everything and I deserve to suffer because god really exists and he is going to send me to hell to punish me for being a slut and that I don't have any rights, I know what it is to be incapable of accepting what the evidence tells me for no reason other than self hatred and self doubt, a belief that the universe must, fundamentally be a place where I will be punished for daring to exist, stand up for myself and not be sufficiently "humble", indeed a belief that I will be punished for not being a subservient, and thus "good" woman, to relate this back to the gender stuff that started the thread (I am not having a go at you for expanding the topic, I was just trying to explain part of my take on the topics you raised).

I hope I have not come off as spiteful, because I am not, in fact I am too accepting of other people's views for my own good, to the point where I end up hating myself simply because some other people hate me, or internalising their prejudices about me because I feel as though I am obligated to, that I have to pretend that there's truth in it because hey, it's POLITE! And TOLERANT! And ACCEPTING! And OPEN MINDED! And EMPATHETIC! And of course that's more important that the truth, apparently. I feel like I soak up other people's perception of me as though my brain were a sponge, regardless of it's (their perception's) accuracy.

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Always knock before entering my room when I am in there alone, as I may be doing all sorts of wonderfully thrilling things that I'd rather you didn't see.

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moonlight bouncing off water
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Thank you Jill2000Plus for the reality check on that. (Oh, FYI when I said everything I ever knew, I meant about the existence of a deity, not about the awful stuff he said) When reading your post I realized that that was almost exactly how I would have responded if someone else had posted what I did, and what's worst is that I didn't even say everything that he said. I think part of why I'm having so much trouble with the things that Ben said is because, I don't have a lot of friends. Yeah I might reference friends a lot up there, but honestly I don't even like those people. I also have had numerous crushes on Ben, and I had thought perhaps I liked him all over again. Fortunately I don't like him and even if I had, what he said to me would have been enough to knock some sense into me regarding the fact that liking him is a stupid idea and a relationship would never work.

I've been thinking a lot about how I want to deal with him tomorrow (Monday so the weekend is over). We have the same Calculus class, although there is a test. But either way I will see him. And he and I might study after school again, although come to think of it I have another test on Tuesday so I'll probably opt out of that. At least that buys me some time to make a decision.

I don't know whether I can remain friends with him, but I probably will since I have a track record of holding onto friendships that have hit the point where they should have ended. I don't know whether I should say something to him and explain just how awful the things he has told me are, or whether I should leave it unless he brings it up. I don't know whether I should maintain the friendship at least to the point of being cordial in class. We graduate this June so we won't see each other again (I'm returning to school to take some prerequisites that I wish I had taken before).

So many people in my hometown feel the exact same way he does, I can't shun the entire town can I? I do still need to function here. But he is so wrong, about so much. So prejudiced and it is people like him who make the world a horrible place to be in for so many people, myself included.

I wish that I could shout at him and scream at him and make this all go away but you can't shout the prejudice and hatred out of a person. Even if I could miraculously make him not think that being gay is wrong or that abortion should be allowed, it wouldn't change the world. It would change almost nothing.

I don't know what to do. I don't like that there is so much hatred in the world.

I used to be so naive that I actually thought that there wasn't really any prejudice in the world. I was so naive to think that.

I don't really know what to do.

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~moonlight

I am ME and that is the only label I need.

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WesLuck
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It really is so unfair that people who are doing no harm to anyone else (and often a lot of good for others) have to put up with this rubbish. People should just be allowed to "be" themselves, as you say, the only thing that should matter is "I am ME and that is the only label I need.". It is a sad fact that bigots feel empowered when there are a lot of them concentrated in one place, and if a majority of a certain place is bigoted, it can be very hard to get away from it. But still regardless, I think you are doing a fantastic job in very difficult circumstances. [Smile] I wish I could do more, but I can always provide hugs.

-hugs for moonlight- [Smile]

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Jill2000Plus
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Just wanted to say that it must be really rough living in a place like that and having few or no friends, and I get that you aren't in a position to meet someone who's prejudiced but relatively tolerant and just disregard them as a potential friend knowing there are loads of people who are actively anti-prejudice around, I live in brighton in the u.k. (well technically I live in hove*, but it's easy for me to get to brighton) and people can exaggerate the extent to which things are hunkydory here, but there's an established queer community and while you do meet prejudiced people, they are not the overwhelming majority of the local populace. Though there are still a lot of un/derinformed teenagers, from my experiences at one of the local colleges.

On a related note, I am not trying to be accusatory, but while I don't doubt that there are a lot of people out there that you have decided you don't want to be friends with for good reason, it is important to remember that just because someone's not persuing the same kind of life as you are, doesn't mean they can't be a good friend. I remember you saying things about people who aren't persuing their education, and the thing is, with me for instance, I can empathise with what it's like to be determined to succeed academically, it's just that as things are with my ADHD, I struggle to keep on top of domestic tasks to the extent that I have dropped out of two courses over the past two years because of it. I did well in school (though keeping up with the teacher for diagrams and notes, and doing homework were always struggles), and I'd love to be able to doggedly persue the completion of various forms of higher education (though I might prefer to just make/find myself a dramatic, weird-looking room and then create art, or write a novel... I may have to forget about the room and do it in my current one lol), but the choices I've made don't mean I can't be friends with someone with different goals, who has made different choices. I totally understand wanting to be friends with someone who "gets it", but I guess what I'm saying is that I get it, it's just not what I've chosen for myself for my own reasons, and I'm sure there are other people who fall into my category who you could be friends with. Part of me's kind of tempted to just let my room become a tip and make lots of casual acquaintances who's sofas I can crash on while I do something really meaningful with my life (as in personally meaningful to me, like a novel or a giant mosaic or a series of comics or just drawing and drawing and drawing or something). I guess part of what I'm saying is that a lot of people don't have things figured out (with regards to the whole "what am I going to do with my life" general mishmash) in their teens and 20s, so it may be hard to find friends if that's one of your requirements. If I've gotten this completely wrong, please say so, I just wanted to put that out there.

* Quote from Bleak Expectations (paraphrased):

"I am in love, have you ever been in love Harry Biscuit?"
"Er, no, but I have been in Hove, are they quite similar?"
"Mostly, but love has no pier or old people."

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Always knock before entering my room when I am in there alone, as I may be doing all sorts of wonderfully thrilling things that I'd rather you didn't see.

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moonlight bouncing off water
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No, the thing about pursuing the same sort (or any sort) of post secondary education thing is that Ben is my only friend who is pursuing the same sort of education as I am. He is the only friend I have who is taking a bunch of really homework heavy courses too. Most of my other friends are college, apprenticeship or workplace bound. I totally don't shut people out based on what they're doing after highschool.

When I went to school on monday, having had time to think about what Ben had said, it was hard to be in the same room as him. It made my skin crawl to think that I had listened to him saying those awful things and I hadn't shouted all the profanities I know at him. I didn't like being in the same room as him and he had the nerve to talk to me like our conversation on friday had never even happened. I'm out of school sick with the flu though so I haven't had to deal with him since monday. I'm heading back to school this afternoon or tomorrow and I'm not looking foreward to dealing with him.

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~moonlight

I am ME and that is the only label I need.

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Jill2000Plus
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Ok, I apologise for my misapprehension. I guess I just meant that some people haven't got anything planned, and some people drop out of high school, and they do so for a variety of reasons, this probably wasn't the right place to bring it up, but as someone who left secondary school at 14 (due to bullying and because I wanted to move in with my dad and get away from my mum and sister so I would have had to start a new school otherwise) and who then spent a few years just watching movies because I'm terrible at self directed learning and though my dad tried, he didn't really manage to do much homeschooling for a variety of reasons, and so on from there through a lot of really having no idea what to do with my life even now, I did feel someone put down by some of the things you said (in other threads). If I have misread you I apologise, it's just that I've met a lot of people who think I'm not trying hard enough or not even trying at all because of the immense difficulties I've had, and while of course I don't know the people you talk about on here (at least it's pretty unlikely, I guess it's not impossible but as far as I know I don't know them), I guess I just don't like it when it feels like someone's generalising about people in my position, which is that of not really knowing what to do and not even being sure if I can accomplish anything. I even sometimes think there's something wrong with me because I haven't had kids, my brain beats me up about not being busy all the time like women in some time periods/societies were/are with childrearing and other work. Though maybe you're going through some of those kinds of doubt too, I don't know.

Anyway, I'm sorry it's so hard being around Ben, and I hope I didn't encourage you to feel worse about it than you otherwise would have. It must be rough having the flu too. I would like to post something more on topic, but I have to rush to the bank now.

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Always knock before entering my room when I am in there alone, as I may be doing all sorts of wonderfully thrilling things that I'd rather you didn't see.

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moonlight bouncing off water
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Oh I'm so soory that you've felt put down by things I've said in other threads! That was not my intention at all. I will certainly watch what I say more often, and I totally get that not pursuing one particular route doesn't mean that someone isn't trying. Part of what I might have been talking about in other threads is that I have friends who are quite lazy about schoolwork and who admit that the only reason they don't do better in school is because they don't feel like it. And they don't get why I have no time to do anything when I spend 95÷ of my "free" time doing schoolwork. But again I am so, so, sorry that I made you feel bad in saying those things.

And I'm over the flu now fortunately and I did go into school today. Ben and I have a class together in the morning so I didn't see him for long, but I did see him once. There was nothing particularily extraordinary about the exchange, but I was kind of mad the whole time I was talking to him.

I'm trying to figure out if it is a betrayal of my morals to stay friends with him after all he said.

Perhaps I should continue on the same course of friendship with him (which ends this June pretty much no matter what anyway) and only talk about the attrocious stuff he said if he brings it up? Or perhaps it might be better to talk to him about it at the next (private) chance I get and tell him something along the lines of: "while I don't agree with your religious views, I think it's fine that you have them and that's not what this is about. What isn't okay, and what really hurt my feelings, is when you said all that stuff about it being wrong to be gay and about how women shouldn't have any control over their pregnancies.". I'm not really sure if I could say the last part without throwing in a string of profanities and telling him that if he wants to be a closeminded biggot he should at least build a time machine and go back in time to when such rediculous view points were socially acceptable outside of rural [where I live]. Not that it would necessarily be a bad thing to cuss him out after what he said. Knowing myself I'll probably go with the second one ( with or without the amendment to it).

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~moonlight

I am ME and that is the only label I need.

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moonlight bouncing off water
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Stuff with Ben, I think, is just going to go in a circle. And that's not really what this thread is about, so I figured I'd return to the actual point of this thread.

Some days I really like dressing up girly, and some days I really, really don't. but it occurred to me to day, I have no idea how to dress up and not be femme. I really only have female clothes, so I I try to break out of the female framework, instead of looking male or gender-neutral (the latter being my preference and comfort-zone at the moment) I end up just looking slobby.

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~moonlight

I am ME and that is the only label I need.

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Sans
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlight bouncing off water:

Some days I really like dressing up girly, and some days I really, really don't. but it occurred to me to day, I have no idea how to dress up and not be femme. I really only have female clothes, so I I try to break out of the female framework, instead of looking male or gender-neutral (the latter being my preference and comfort-zone at the moment) I end up just looking slobby.

(Me too!) [Big Grin]

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"Sneak away, sneak away / If the fate is too sad / You are not a flower of hell / That kind of place... / Don't become lost, don't become lost... / Or you won't be able to grasp the entangled hand / The cry also has a limit...." - Naraku no Hana

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Sans
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Sorry if I seemed impertinent, but I'm just glad to have someone to relate to regarding choices of dress.

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"Sneak away, sneak away / If the fate is too sad / You are not a flower of hell / That kind of place... / Don't become lost, don't become lost... / Or you won't be able to grasp the entangled hand / The cry also has a limit...." - Naraku no Hana

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moonlight bouncing off water
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That's cool SansNom, it's awesome to know when someone feels similarly about something!

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~moonlight

I am ME and that is the only label I need.

Posts: 864 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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