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» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sexual Ethics and Politics » Accepting your boyfriend

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Author Topic: Accepting your boyfriend
Rick27m
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How do girls feel about emasculation. Meaning to femenize men when their not meant to be. Personally I think it's wrong. I think that if you truly love somebody you should accept them for who they are, instead of trying to turn them into basically men with a vagina. How do you feel about it. I feel emasculation is sort of a problem in this country. It's almost like men have to put on a show just to keep their girlfriend. I can understand not wanting to be with a guy who's a jerk. But I don't understand this need to constantly need pampering. Opening doors, always picking up the check on a first date, constantly complementing women and not getting the same thing in return. If women truly wanted to be treated as equals, why do you expect so much extra from us. And why is it that anything a woman does gets twice the amound of credit. It's like if a man is working construction in 100 degree weather, it's never under any circumstance more difficult then what the woman is doing at home. Why is it that women always need to be told their doing a great job, but yet a man working his butt off and bringing home a paycheck to support his family always goes underappreciated. Of course it's his responsibility, but women have responsibilities also. But if you ever tell a woman it's her job to cook for her man, women get all defensive about that as if they have no responsibilities. Like everything they do is because their just such a great people. I personally feel like women can be hypocrites, and demand too much and not give enough. I know that not all women think this way, but a lot of women do. Dr. Phil certaintly isn't helping me out on this one, but I wanted to know what you all thought about this.
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Milke
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quote:
And why is it that anything a woman does gets twice the amound of credit

Working in a computer-oriented job, I'm going to have to disagree with this one completely. Likely as not, I'm going to have to work twice as hard to get customers to believe I have a clue what I'm doing, despite having a known good record within the company.

quote:
Opening doors, always picking up the check on a first date, constantly complementing women and not getting the same thing in return.

If I'm in a position to hold open a door I'll do so. If he buys lunch today, I'll pay for it next week. If she pays for the movie tickets I'll buy the snacks. If someone looks good I'll say so. I think that's pretty standard among those of us who care about etiquette and our friends.

quote:
I think that if you truly love
somebody you should accept them for who they are, instead of trying to turn them into basically men with a vagina.

You should accept everyone for who they are, unless that's a very unacceptable thing. How do you try to turn someone into a man with a vagina besides plastic surgery any way? What exactly are you trying to expres here?

quote:
Why is it that women always need to be told their doing a great job, but yet a man working his butt off and bringing home a
paycheck to support his family always goes underappreciated

I can't answer that. There's simply nothing that's true of all men or all women.

Please be careful with the misogynistic and overly general statements. You've added a bit of a disclaimer at the bottom, but after complaining about the things that every woman apparently does it really doesn't mean very much. I don't think there's much positive input we can give you, as this seems more like a rant than a query.

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Why scream and cry when you know it's true?
Why fall in love when there's better things to do?

[This message has been edited by Milke (edited 05-25-2002).]


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logic_grrl
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quote:
How do girls feel about emasculation. Meaning to femenize men when their not meant to be. Personally I think it's wrong. I think that if you truly love somebody you should accept them for who they are, instead of trying to turn them into basically men with a vagina. How do you feel about it.

You know, people aren't magically meant to be "masculine" or "feminine" just because they have a penis or a vagina (and a clitoris, let us not forget). Plenty of men naturally have qualities which society labels "feminine", just as many women have qualities labelled as "masculine". Many men cook. Many, many women bring home a paycheck. Trying to lock people into rigid roles just because of the shape of their genitals is not a great idea!

What a lot of people (women and men alike) want is to be treated as equals in their relationships (which is why, as Milke pointed out, couples nowadays will commonly divide up bills, both open doors, and so on - lots of women actually find it patronizing when men insist on opening doors for them or always paying for things).

Accepting someone for who they naturally are is one thing; accepting being treated as inferior or alien is another. Expecting a boyfriend to treat you as an equal human being is not "emasculating" them - none of my guy friends have reported that their penises shrivel up and disappear and they start growing vaginas just because they're on equal terms with a girlfriend .


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Confused boy
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Your argument is very faulty there Rick. Paying for meals and opening doors is by no means part of a conspiracy to emasculate men, quite the opposite in fact. That is a tradition that dates back to the lady and chivilrous gentlemen style of myth and it was considered more manly to treat your lover with the greatest respect. Well that is how the myth would have it of course. It was an ideal and only sometimes a reality.

So do not confuse the different, now outdated but still relevent, ideals of manhood with feminization of male culture. The more recent cultural development has been the man who enjoys watching sport and acts with as much contempt as possible for women (that is an "ideal" as well, hardly anyone is as 1 dimensional).

Personally I feel the gentlemenly code of behaviour should be considered a romantic way of treating a partner. That way even hardened feminists need not feel insulted when a man opens a door for them because it is merely a romantic gesture and not a symbol of masculine oppression. It may be an outdated tradition, but it is still a sweet gesture, isnt it?

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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logic_grrl
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quote:
Personally I feel the gentlemenly code of behaviour should be considered a romantic way of treating a partner. That way even hardened feminists need not feel insulted when a man opens a door for them because it is merely a romantic gesture and not a symbol of masculine oppression. It may be an outdated tradition, but it is still a sweet gesture, isnt it?

I think the feminist argument is that, if it's such a sweet and romantic thing to do, then both partners should be able to do it. If it only works one way, then it's patronizing (as if women *needed* to be pampered and protected and have doors opened for them - 'cause doors are so scary and dangerous - while men don't).

Being a hardened feminist myself, I have no problem if a guy holds open a door for me - as long as I get to hold it open for *him* if I get to it first. Similarly with paying for meals - I'd expect to take turns or split the bill. And I have been known to buy flowers for guys. These can be nice ways of showing consideration for someone, so I don't see why men should get a monopoly on them .


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Rick27m
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I just feel like there are too many double standards against men. Take a look at spousal abuse. If a woman slaps a man, that is somehow not such a bad thing because men are stronger and they can take it. But if I was to slap a woman, I could do it easy enough so that it wouldn't hurt her that much, but I would be crucified for it. I've never hit a woman, but if a woman was pounding away on me, I wouldn't feel like such a bad person for hitting back out of self defense. Look at what happened to Chuck Finley. He got beat up by his wife while driving down the road, and the only reason for it was because he didn't fight back. Then on all the talk shows, people are making jokes about it. Jay Leno says, ..."he didn't hit her back, god bless him..." What do you mean god bless him. As if him hitting back would make him such a bad person. That's BS. If he were making jokes about men beating up women, NOW would probably boycott those shows. It's so hypocrtical. And don't use Nicole Simpson as an excuse for women being made fun of for being beat up, because people were making fun of OJ for denying his involvement, not for Nicole being killed. Look at John Bobbit. And don't get me wrong, this guy is a scumbag who was beating his wife. I don't have any sympathy for what happened to him. But imagine if a woman was beating up her husband and he decided to get even one day by taking a pair of scissors and cuttting something off that was very sensitive. You think that people would be making jokes about that? Doubt it. Look at all the daytime talk shows that complain about men. The View, Oprah, basically any woman show where women are yapping. A lot of the time that topics are complaints about men. No show with men could do something like that unless it's in the form of good humor like "The Man Show." If it was ever in serious context, NOW would probably boycott it. You can't see the hypocracy in things like this?
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kythryne
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Rick, sweeping generalizations and soapbox-style rantings are not permitted at Scarleteen. As Milke said, we really can't give you much imput, because you don't seem to be willing to consider viewpoints other than your own. If you wish to discuss this issue here, you will need to keep an open mind and be willing to acknowledge that there are many ways to look at any given thing.

If you simply wish to rant about your opinions on this issue, please do so on your own website. Thank you.

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Kythryne Aisling
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logic_grrl
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Sorry, but a few jokes about men don't make men into an oppressed minority.

quote:
But imagine if a woman was beating up her husband and he decided to get even one day by taking a pair of scissors and cuttting something off that was very sensitive. You think that people would be making jokes about that?

Y'know, female genital mutilation actually happens to approximately 6000 girls in Africa and the Middle East every day, without any big international outcry about it. According to US statistics, several women got raped in the few minutes it took me to draft this post. So I figure that that probably earns women the right to make a few jokes in bad taste.

Violence against anyone (male or female) is horrible, and nobody's saying it's okay, but you shouldn't take what gets said on daytime TV talk shows as evidence of some great double standard against men (actually, you shouldn't take anything that gets said on daytime TV talk shows as evidence of anything ).

I'm sorry if this sort of media stuff is making you feel bad - I think it can be really difficult growing up as a guy these days, subject to all sorts of contradictory pressures. But if you ignore the jokes, you'll find that women and girls actually generally have a lot of appreciation for any individual guy who acts decently and treats us as equals.


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Confused boy
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I suppose the chivilrous code could translate to both genders quite well. Course, some understanding would have to be made, taking turns in who is going to be the gentle(wo)men.

As for the media and day time television, I would wish to widen the complaint that Rick has made. Gender is irrelevent in this case. That side of the media is responsible for perpetuating the "victim culture" that ensures that whatever race, gender or creed you are, you have been wounded in some way and someone else is to blame. Still it makes popular television, I guess.

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'An Anarchist is a Liberal with a bomb' Trotsky


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Moth
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I think men hitting women is so huge an issue, and not vica versa, because while men hit women all the time, women hit men rather rarely. And when women DO abuse men, men tend to (not always, but tend to) get out of the relationship a lot more quickly than women do who are getting abused.

The whole chivalry thing . . . ::shrugs:: I think often the guy enjoys doing it just as much as the woman enjoys receiving it. I don't see it as a problem, though I know some guys resent it, and sometimes it's also used as a device to prove how weak women are.

My boyfriend holds doors for me, as he does for everybody, but I hold doors for him if I get there first (not usually- he has really long legs). We tend to take turns paying for things. I think this is something couples need to work out on their own. If a guy feels "emasculated" by pampering his girlfriend (though I don't know why he would- that kind of pampering is pretty much designed to make a guy feel manly), he should say something to his g/f. A lot of these problems are almost as much the fault of the offended as the offendee, if they let it go on and on and on without talking about it . . .

::cuts of rant on communication in relationships and shrugs::

Finally, most homemakers I know are very appreciative of their husbands' contribution. Although most women DO work outside the home, so your comment on it being the wife's duty to cook is a bit weird.


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Moth
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oh, quick comment on my comment .. . when I said

"A lot of these problems are almost as much the fault of the offended as the offendee, if they let it go on and on and on without talking about it . . ."

I did _NOT_ mean abusive relationships. I meant the sort of thing that the original poster was talking about . . . people being upset over door holding and flower giving.

wanted to make that clear.


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Dzuunmod
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Rick, from what I've seen of it, I wouldn't hold The Man Show up as something that's done all in good fun. Women are portrayed as such sex objects on the show, that I'm unable to see what's funny about it. I'd go so far as to say that it's misogynistic.

Incidentally, why do you think that women seemingly rule daytime TV? Could it be because women have been at home more than men during the day for centuries, and that trend holds true to this day? Think about it, women have been forced to stay home while men have gone to work for more time than I can comprehend. Isn't it natural that women would then hold a little bit of bitterness toward the people who've been forcing them to stay home? But I digress.

Sometimes men get a bad rap in the media, but the thing is, sometimes women get a bad rap in the media, too. For every Oprah, there's a Howard Stern (you might think his show is all in good fun, too, but many people don't feel that's the case). For every View, there's a Playboy bunnies special, say, on Fox.

Okay. So, you might not be able to make jokes about hurting women the way women can make jokes about hurting men. I'll agree that that sucks. But here are a few other things that suck (but not so much for you and I, seeing as we're both male):
-If women choose not to have children, their femininity will likely be questioned;
-If women have sex with a lot of people, they'll probably be seen in the eyes of others as lesser for it;
-Billboards showing people that are, maybe, 30-40 pounds underweight show women far more commonly than they show men.

And those are just for starters, my friend. If you look at pretty much every objective measurement around, in most parts of the world, they'll show that people like you and I have it pretty good.

That's not to say that you shouldn't speak out against things in society that strike you as being a little off. I think it's important to have activists around.

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"...the airport's always almost empty this time of the year, so let's go play on a baggage carousel. Set our watches forward like we're just arriving here from a past we left in a place we knew too well."
-The Weakerthans


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Beppie
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quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
I think men hitting women is so huge an issue, and not vica versa, because while men hit women all the time, women hit men rather rarely. And when women DO abuse men, men tend to (not always, but tend to) get out of the relationship a lot more quickly than women do who are getting abused.


I'd be careful of generalisations here- in some ways it is simply more socially acceptable for a woman to hit a man. Some argue that due to the fact that a woman is usually less strong, physically than a man, it has less potential to do damage, but its important to remember that abuse is psychological and emotional too. From my understanding, often men who are in abusive relationships feel that they cannot get out because admitting that they have been abused is not the "manly" thing to do, or because the physical threat is not there, or is less, they feel that it is not a "real" problem.

Abuse of all kinds needs to be taken seriously. Even if, in heterosexual relationships, the man is more often the instigator of physical violence, this should not diminish the importance of cases where men suffer abuse.


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Moth
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Mm, well, I didn't mean to generalize (that's why I said tend to, and mostly). mm, but I agree very much that abuse needs to be taken seriously more seriously than it is. I never understand how people manage to NOT take it seriously, but some people I know don't . . . hmmph.
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sapphirecat
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quote:
Originally posted by Rick27m:
How do girls feel about emasculation. Meaning to femenize men when their not meant to be.

I'm meant to be something? Oh... I guess I'm not living up to that...

Also, as far as I'm aware, lipstick hasn't irreversibly changed my body yet.

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Sapphire Cat
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lemming
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As a reply only to the subject of this topic, since pretty much everything else I wanted to say has been covered by Milke , I would like to say that I accept my male boyfriend with all of his personality traits, both those which some sectors of society would consider 'feminine' and those which some would consider 'masculine.'

There is no dictionary of standards for human behavior; you are what you are, and any attempt to label or define is going to cut off some people somewhere.

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Laurel Lemming
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"Ooh, I'll settle down with some old story/About a boy who's just like me/Thought there was love in everything and everyone, you're so naive!"-Belle and Sebastian, "Get Me Away From Here I'm Dying"


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CutiePie4eva
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quote:
Originally posted by Rick27m:
I think that if you truly love somebody you should accept them for who they are, instead of trying to turn them into basically men with a vagina.

yes... you should accept everyone those you love and those you dont... and what does having a vagina have to do with anything? not everyone with a vagina is soft and sweet... they arent all girlie or all anything... EVERYONE is different... man or woman... you're stereotyping women as being weak and wanting the world... guys arent much better all the time... so this is not much of an argument to start.

quote:
Originally posted by Rick27m:
...I don't understand this need to constantly need pampering.

i dont need constant pampering... in fact i am against: Opening doors, always picking up the check on a first date, constantly complementing women... i know about the ancient myth that these things were to show how manly a man really is... how is opening a door making you feministic? or paying for something? i tell my boy taht i dont want him to pay everytime... and he doesnt let me... isnt that HIM trying to change my ideas of equlity? guys are just as bad as girls so dont tell me the problem is women changing men

quote:
Originally posted by Rick27m:
If women truly wanted to be treated as equals, why do you expect so much extra from us.

i dont demand anything extra... and if someone complements me than that's something they thoguht and felt... and when i complement someone else it is the same. women do NOT get twice the amount of credit. i go to a technical high school. all of the guys there consider me to be an air head and are in shock when they hear that i have a 99 average in electronics. its like... how could she be doing better than me? in my robotics class the two guys i got stuck with did not even let my touch the miniture robot becuase they thought at just one touch i would break it. and when one of them messed up it must have been me... which is just another reason for why i shouldnt touch it. you're sick of women trying to change men? well maybe MEN should start consider women to be just as smart as them.

quote:
Originally posted by Rick27m:
a man working his butt off and bringing home a paycheck to support his family always goes underappreciated. Of course it's his responsibility, but women have responsibilities also. But if you ever tell a woman it's her job to cook for her man, women get all defensive about that as if they have no responsibilities.

who said the man is bringing home the paycheck to support his family? in my family its my mom... you sound like one of those guys who wont let the women get a job, who has to stay home and be a housewife... there's nothing wrong with a woman who wants to stay home and be a housewife... but lets not stereotype... are you the type who laugh at a husband who stays home and does the cleaning? and the woman who goes out and works for the paycheck? there's nothing wrong with that either... why do you make it sound like women should bne staying home? isnt that a man changing a woman to fit his ideals? just another example of a guy changing around a girl... forcing them to stay home and cleaning... you make it sound like its a woman's job... its NOT... my thought is you make the mess, you clean it... no matter who it is.

quote:
Originally posted by Rick27m:
I just feel like there are too many double standards against men. Take a look at spousal abuse. If a woman slaps a man, that is somehow not such a bad thing because men are stronger and they can take it. But if I was to slap a woman, I could do it easy enough so that it wouldn't hurt her that much, but I would be crucified for it. I've never hit a woman, but if a woman was pounding away on me, I wouldn't feel like such a bad person for hitting back out of self defense.

ANY type of abuse is wrong... if anyone is abusing anyone else they obviously need help. if anyone is in an abusing relationship they should get out... whether its the man or the woman doing the abusing, it's an unhealthy relationship. let's get real here... life is full of hypocritical information. why is it that commedians who are colored can make fun of white people, but the other way around is horrible? i see the hypocracy... but the world today stereotypes everything and you're thought process doesnt help.


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