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Author Topic: I don't know what to call this.
LollySocks
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I have been struggling with this for months now. Memories of that night were reignited the other night and, since then, it has really been on my mind.

Back in January, I asked a friend of mine (I'll call her Linda) if she wanted to drink with me, she said yes. I asked an older (21 year old) friend of mine if he would buy us (we are both girls) alcohol (I'll call him Calvin). He said yes. You have to understand, we had an extremely complicated relationship and past. I knew he had strong feelings for me, and I too had feelings for him, at one point. I thought we'd gotten past that, because I was in a serious relationship and had been for over a year.

Anyway, having these two close friends of mine with me while I experimented with liquor for the first time, I thought I was safe. I thought I could trust them. But once I started really feeling the alcohol, I started trying to take my clothes off. See, I'm more comfortable naked. That's just the way I am. I remember Calvin telling me to keep my clothes on. Somehow, I still ended up naked. From then on, all I remember is laying there on my back, having Linda sloppily makeout with me (which had never happened before, nor ever again, ick). Next, I remember her licking her hand and wetting me "down there". And that's when everything really got messed up. Calvin penetrated me, over and over again. He did not wear a condom. And he filmed it. He filmed a 17 year old girl getting drunkenly f*cked by a 21 year old previously incarcerated sex offender. As I laid there, incoherent, I couldn't help but feel like they planned it or something.

Now, my question is, even if I don't remember saying 'no', could this still be considered rape? I need some sort of peace of mind. Please help. Thanks.

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break down, rebuild, repeat.

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Ecofem
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Hey Lolly,

What you're describing definitely sounds like rape to me-- you did not give consent and were unable to even do so because of the alcohol. It sounds like a really horrible experience, and I'm sorry you had to go through it. I have to go tonight but I'll try to be back tomorrow evening if another volunteer doesn't come back sooner.

How are you feeling right now? Have you talked about this to anyone? Do you still see Calvin? Are you talking to a counselor or any support person like that? How are other things in your life? Due to your EC post, I'm wondering if you just had an unprotected sex pregnancy/STI risk? Is that something you want to talk about? I know from your history that you've been through a lot of difficult things. How have those things been? How's your life been on the whole? We'd like to help support you through starting to process this event and help get in touch with some local resources.

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LollySocks
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Right now I'm feeling...weird, but for some others reasons, as well as because of this topic. I just got home after buying and taking Plan B. Yes, there was an unprotected sex pregnancy risk...with that same bf I mentioned in my first post (we just celebrated our 2 year anniversary this past weekend). It wasn't the first time it happened, unprotected sex, but this time felt different. It really freaked me out, especially after I read that sperm can live in the female body 5-7 days after unprotected sex. I just took it to be safe. Let's hope I don't have any side effects.

I cut Calvin out of my life, but I have seen him in passing since the incident. If I ever run into him, my plan is to treat him like a total stranger; I think that would be the most painful thing I could do. I also cut my so-called "friend" that was drinking with me. The morning after the incident, she told me she knew it was going to happen. I don't think they planned it, but I do think she should have watched out for me a hell of a lot more than she did. I was also informed that she'd had sex with him, and she thought he had an STD or something. I was appalled, and still am. It's like I'm a magnet for shitty friends or something.

Last night, after posting my first post, I started seriously thinking about seeing a counselor/therapist. I don't know how to go about it though, or how to tell my parents that I'm going to see one. They know nothing about the incident, including the drinking, or anything else I've made posts about on here for that matter. I have suggested it before, but they don't understand why I want to/feel like I need to see a therapist, which is understandable, seeing as they don't know anything that's gone on =/

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break down, rebuild, repeat.

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Ecofem
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Hi Lolly,

Plan B certainly can have some uncomfortable side effects, but I sincerely hope that you can avoid the "worst" of them. I think it was a very good call to take the EC, by the way. As for getting freaked out about unprotected sex, I think that we can react to the same situation in different ways at different times because our lives are never static. This event that you described here can really affect your sense of safety and well-being, and make you more sensitive to stuff that was otherwise manageable. Because of the unprotected sex (well, rape which is not sex but I mean in terms of physical contact) that Calvin perpetrated, I would recommend both you and your boyfriend getting tested for STIs. Not fun stuff but very important nonetheless.
Have you talked to your boyfriend about this incident?

As for dealing with Calvin, I think it was good to cut off contact and you've found a way to deal with any face-to-face run-ins. I can understand that you're upset at this female friend for not having done more to protect you from this situation; however, I also see you blaming her for "having sex" with Calvin when it seems very likely that she, too, was raped. I don't mean this in a call-out way but just to bring it up because I see a link: I noticed in your post to the other user about EC (very well-intentioned on your part, not wanting her to have to worry or wait) that you sort of got into some victim-blaming territory. I saw her "pushing him away while he was trying to penetrate" as a potential red flag for rape; you told her to be more careful and be more assertive. Yeah, we can/could/should do certain things but that doesn't make it right; just because I accidentally leave my cell phone out doesn't make it ok to be stolen. The point of rape or sexual assault is that there isn't a healthy dynamic where people can really even SAY no a lot of the time. I'm glad you're not blaming yourself for what happened-- it's NOT your fault in any way. But I also suggest you consider how you're reacting to others in similar situations, be it the stranger on the boards or your friend here, and reflect upon your reaction. Such projection or judgment usually comes from our subconscious and we would never mean to do so... but I'm sensing it so I encourage you to reflect on your feelings on abuse. This article has a lot of good information for starters: Blinders Off:Getting a Good Look at Abuse and Assault

I would definitely agree that talking to a therapist/counselor would be a very good next step. (Because this incident was rape and Calvin filmed minors, there is a lot of stuff here that you could take legal action on should you so wish; I get a feeling that you aren't looking to do so, at least right now. We're here to support you in whatever you choose and talk about options, should that be something of interest.) Back to counseling: I looked through your posting history and, with all due respect, I see you going through more challenges than any one person should have to experience, and I also see you having to do so quite alone. When I see how tense your relationship is with your mom or how you didn't even want to bring up menstrual issues with your doctor, I see how you've had to keep so much private... even basic things that should be no big deal to discuss at all.

I think you've done a good job of managing so much on your own and it's really impressive how much you can put other things and ideals first, such as being so committed to a vegan lifestyle that you debated whether or not to take EC! That's pretty hardcore and noteworthy, you know. [Smile] But you don't have to go through this alone and you deserve to be happy with your life-- as it is-- and talking to a counselor would be a great step in that direction. I see you're 18+, so you really have total control over your medical choices now from a legal standpoint. I realize that financially it may be different but how about just saying, "I want to see a counselor. I called the insurance company, got a list of covered counselors, called them for more information, and plan to make an appointment with one on xyz." Again, though you DON'T have to tell them if you're paying for this on your own or going through your campus health center, if you're at college, for example. How does that sound?

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LollySocks
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To be perfectly honest, I don't totally remember the topic I replied to in which I said those things to another girl who was raped. However, I can understand why I would say that. I think I see myself in her, and I feel like there has to be more I could have/should have done to protect myself from what happened. And, yet, that was quite out of line of me to say to her. I know it isn't her fault. I just can't help but feel like a lot of girls these days that get raped could have done things to prevent it. Like, in my case, if I had not drank and put myself in that situation. I guess I just have to forgive myself.

As for Linda, she chose to have sex with Calvin. I guess I left out some perhaps important details there. She is a bigger girl who sleeps around with a lot of guys so she feels better about herself. She once told me, "It's funny, because when I'm having sex with these guys, they don't care what I look like." Uh, duh they don't! They're guys! And dirtbags at that. It doesn't mean they care about you, it means they want sex! What really pissed me off was that I knew Calvin had been in jail for having sex with a minor, and I knew Linda's tendencies and I made Calvin promise that he wouldn't have sex with her. And he did promise me. He made her promise not to tell me about it... I think part of it was me trying to protect him from going to jail again, and part of it was because of my feelings for him. This is why I felt betrayed by both of them.

Yes, my boyfriend knows about what happened. He was never upset with me for what Calvin did, he was more disappointed in me for drinking. I do agree that we should both get tested for STIs, just in case, even though that happened several months ago. It couldn't hurt. How much of a risk was there though if Calvin did not ejaculate?

Even though my mom doesn't know about all the stuff I've gone through these past few years, I did talk to her earlier today about possibly seeing a counselor. After she got done laughing at me, I explained that I was serious and that it wasn't a big deal; everybody could use somebody to talk to. She said it is covered by our insurance, so I just have to look into it more. I'm really excited and nervous to take the next step and actually go see one.

It's kind of funny when I think about all the stuff I've been through, because no one would ever suspect it. Sometimes it's hard to believe it was all real and that it all happened to me.

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break down, rebuild, repeat.

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Heather
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quote:
Like, in my case, if I had not drank and put myself in that situation.
What if your rape happened anyway?

In other words, I don't know if it helps for me to say this, but I was sexually assaulted once at 11 and once at 12. I was not drinking (I had never had a drink in my life). In the first instance I was getting a haircut, and in the second I was camp counseling. I was not with people or in a place anyone would have thought of as unsafe. I was 11 and 12. One of my assaults involved being forcibly dragged off by a group while I fought like hell to get free: I simply was overpowered. My 76-year-old great grandmother was also raped and murdered in her home at that age. And I can assure you she was not dressed in a way anyone would classify as "sexy."

All that given, when I work here, and read about rape that happens to girls or women who were drinking, at parties, who were with people who might more easily have been identified as unsafe, what have you, what I do NOT ever think, and have never found myself thinking once, is "Well, unlike me or my great-grandma, they could have done more to prevent that," or "Unlike me, their rape was partially their fault." Not once. Not ever.

In part that's because what I know, from my side of the fence, that sometimes when someone is determined to rape you none of that makes any difference at all. You can be a kid and still be raped, or a very old woman. You can be wearing shorts or a nun's habit. You can be drunk or sober. You can be with people everyone finds trustworthy or people no one does. You can fight like hell and lose that fight.

What I know from my side of the fence is that all those ways women are apparently at fault for rape or all the ways women hold themselves at fault come out of inappropriate and unfactual victim-blaming or self-blaming because the ONLY person to blame is the person who did the raping, just like the only person to blame when we're mugged is who mugged us, and the only person to blame when we're robbed is who robbed us.

Even if, in the latter example, we left a window unlocked? That still doesn't mean we invited a robbery, or were giving permission to someone to rob us. It still doesn't mean we were not robbed nor that the robber isn't who did the robbing and is responsible for that action.

Just a little food for thought that might help you adjust your own thinking and any self-blame (that you're putting on yourself or others).

I also think it is very well worth thinking deeply about a boyfriend who finds drinking a more serious "crime" than rape.

(And one last P.S. Please watch statements like, "Uh, duh they don't! They're guys!" Gender stereotypes don't help anyone, aren't okay here in a space that we want to have safe for everyone -- including guys -- and are infrequently false. Thanks.)

[ 11-04-2009, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Heather ]

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Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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Heather
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Just to also be sure you know, someone who was previously convicted as a sex offender would be someone who you could probably very easily -- as sadly is often not the case with rape -- get charged again and get put right back in jail, where he belongs. So, if you have any interest in reporting, know it would likely be an easier process for you with this person than it can be for others.

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Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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Ecofem
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Hey Lolly,

Heather addressed so many points and gave some great illustrations, but I wanted to pop by with a few comments. [Smile]

The reason you can't find the comments you talk about is because we erased your post (and then I edited mine) since we did not want to potentially upset the other user. I don't want to beat a dead horse, things are totally fine in that regard now, but I wanted to clarify, too.

As for asking about STI risk without ejaculation, it's still there; because your friend thinks/knows he has an STI (and because Calvin is definitely untrustworthy and unsafe in other ways), I think the likelihood is even greater than usual. So, please do get tested when you get a chance; if you need help finding a place close to you we can help locate one. You can find more information on STIs and testing here.

I'm so happy to hear that you were able to talk to your mom about counseling (and that it's covered!) It's neat to hear you're excited about setting it up; I think it will be a positive experience on the whole and give you a really good chance to reflect on all of this. Here's one volunteer's blog entry about his starter experience with counseling in case you're interested.

Again, as Heather said, since this guy has a previous conviction as a sex offender, it would be easier for him to get charged and put back into jail (I agree, where he belongs!) Let us know if you're interested and want help with this.

Good luck, and have a good Wednesday! [Smile]

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LollySocks
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To be honest with you, I would love to sent his *** to jail. However, I feel like it's too late. This happened 10 months ago and I haven't seen him since. I'm 18 now, which sort of makes me feel like it would come off as being much less severe than if I were still 17. Not to mention I don't want my parents to know what happened, and I don't really have the money to pay a lawyer and deal with all that other court crap. Would it really even be worth it to recall all those dark memories again, in more detail, aloud, in front of a room full of people. I don't know if I could handle that. I feel ashamed, embarrassed, pissed off, and, like I said, I really think it's too late now.

That goes for the STI screening as well, somewhat. I've gone 10 months with no symptoms and, yes, I realize many STIs lay dormant, or at least don't necessarily show symptoms, but I guess I just feel like I would know if something was....off.

Back to something Heather said about my boyfriend. You must have misunderstand what I meant when I said that he wasn't as upset about what Calvin did, as much as the drinking. I just meant that he understood that I didn't choose to do it, I didn't enjoy it or agree to it. I wouldn't say that it didn't bother him, I just don't think either one of us realized at the time how serious an offense it was. Until this week, I had never honestly acknowledged it as rape. Because of the circumstances (with the alcohol), it didn't appear as obvious a sexual offense as it would have had the alcohol not been involved...if that makes sense. That isn't me blaming myself, it's just me trying to help you understand that my bf is not a bad guy, by ANY means. He's been supporting me through everything, and just yesterday agreed it was a good idea that we both get tested.

It's actually kind of ironic that I'm flirting with the idea of testifying or whatever about all this, because after it happened, Calvin knew I was not okay with what he did. Linda texted me one day and said something like, "He's afraid you're going to get him sent to jail again" and I replied back, "I am" just to get him scared. I wish I'd done something about it then, but I knew my parents would have to be involved, since I was a minor. I am really regretting not doing something about it, and it makes me so mad at myself. But that's nothing new.

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Heather
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Just so you know, in most states, there are grace periods given for crimes that happened when someone was a minor. And you would not have to pay for a lawyer: this is about a crime someone committed. Your parents also would not have had to get involved, and still would not now if you didn't want.

So, what I'd suggest, since it sounds like you may want to, is just that you talk to a rape advocate where you are and find out everything about what filing charges would/could mean for you. That way, you can have the information to make your decision on. Because by all means, you may well find that going through that process, while challenging and hard, IS something that benefits you.

You also have the option of simply filing a police report about this, but not pressing charges. The report alone may show he violated his parole (heck, as a registered sex offender, just being AROUND minors unsupervised on his part may do that), and no trial of any kind may be needed for the state to put him back in prison. Or, that report can be there if and when the next person he does this to DOES press charges to support her case. But again, an advocate can fill you in on all of these options.

STIs don't usually show symptoms, and most people with one don't know they have one. So, just for the record, if you're like most people, you would not know if you had one or feel it intuitively.

(And I getcha w/the boyfriend correction. Glad to hear it.)

[ 11-05-2009, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Heather ]

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Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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atm1
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Lolly, I just want to repeat something Heather said for emphasis: filing a police report could aid the next person he does this do.

To me, the question is not whether or not he will do this to someone else, but if that person will go to the police.

He's very clearly demonstrated that he is a predator and will keep on raping.

I don't want to pressure you into something you don't want to do, but only make it clear that this it's very, very likely he will rape again.

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LollySocks
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For some reason, I seem to be having trouble finding a "rape advocate" where I am. Help?

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break down, rebuild, repeat.

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Heather
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Toss us a zip code, Lolly, and we'll see if we can help.

You could also call your local police station and ask them for a referral if you haven't already tried that.

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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LollySocks
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43015.
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orca
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Hi LollySocks. I found this site that talks about a place in your area which provides a wide range of services. Their number is 1-800-684-2324. Hope this helps.

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Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.--Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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LollySocks
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Thank you, Orca, for providing that website. I just called the helpline (after much planning of what I would say, as well as deep breathing techniques). I talked to a guy who encouraged me to report what happened. I plan on calling one of their advocates on Monday to see what my options are, and find out more about what could possibly happen (as well as get support and understanding, just as I have gotten here :]). I finally feel ready to take this head on. I've been comparing what I could lose to what I could gain and things I could gain always seem to win. I need to take my life back, so maybe I can finally stop thinking about this as much. It would be so nice to go a day without these thoughts.

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break down, rebuild, repeat.

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Heather
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Lolly: just wanted to give you a big dose of cheerleading for considering reporting. Good for you!

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Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

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