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» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Gender Issues » rape: truth and lies (Page 1)

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Author Topic: rape: truth and lies
000
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I heard that in an anonymous poll, 60% of men responded that they would rape someone if there would be no consequences. Is this all nurture, or both nurture and nature?
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cool87
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I'm suprised by that. Can you point out with poll it is.

If it's true it means that more than a half of men would rape someone. I just don't understand why they would do that. What is the fun in raping someone, what does this bring men ?

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000
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I found this. Doesn't give as much detail on the study as I'd like, but it's something (see # 2): http://www.wavaw.ca/informed_stats.php
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000
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I'm pretty sure the study I heard about was more recent though. I heard some cafeteria cooks talking about it just last year, and I think the study they were talking about was all-ages.
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Djuna
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Jeez... 60%. I'm a guy and I have no idea where this is coming from. I really can't begin to understand how you can enjoy having sex with someone who's screaming at you to let go, to stop. Who will be scarred for life by what you're doing.
There must be some reason that the survey is inaccurate or something, like they only asked 10 people. Something like that, because I can't believe these statistics.
As for nature vs nurture in rapists generally, I would have to say probably nurture. I'm no shrink, but rapists tend to be pretty messed up people, don't they?

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000
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well, whether or not this affects how you view the statistic or not, I don't know. But someone does not have to be screaming at you to let go to be rape. Sexual assault includes a lot of other things too.
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Djuna
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Well yeah, I mean I can't see the pleasure in any form of sexual encounter the other person doesn't want to be having.

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“In a strange room, before you are emptied for sleep, what are you. And when you are filled with sleep you never were. I don’t know what I am. I don’t know if I am or not... how often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home.”

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Beppie
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Diana Russell talks about men's propensity to rape. The linked page is part of a larger article, it's all fully referenced.

This research indicates that 25-30% of male college students would rape a woman if they believed that they could get away with it, but those numbers increase dramatically (to 53%) if one describes a rape, without actually using the word "rape."

[ 08-15-2006, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Beppie ]

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Heather
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quote:
I can't believe these statistics.
Well, given that the minimum statistic for how many women have been raped is one out of every four, and in some stats, one out of every three, they shouldn't be all THAT shocking.

I think some of what needs be understood is that a very pervasive theory about rape is that it isn't about sexual pleasure, per se, for the rapist, but about power and control. Mind, that means a rapist is getting emotional satisfaction by that, obviously, and also obviously, is sexually aroused by it.

But while the lines between get pretty blurry (for plenty for people, the partnered sex they have can be fairly rape-y), rape and consensual partnered sex with an eye towards mutual pleasure and joy aren't things we can really compare or lump together.

And per your last question, Joseph, overall, rapists tend to profile out as "regular" guys for the most part. Serial rapists are a different ball game much of the time, but no, the idea that rapists are "really messed up people," isn't so apt. I'd certainly posit that there is something profoundly messed up about rape and raping someone, absolutely, but given how prevalent and common it is, in order to say rapists are really messed up, we'd have to say that a substantial portion of the populace is really messed up.

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Heather
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...and I'm not sure it even matters if it's nature or nurture, does it? Regardless, one fully gets to choose whether or not to rape.

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Djuna
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Well yes, absolutely right.
I think what I meant wasn't so much that you could pick a rapist from a line-up but that they're made not born if you know what I mean.

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“In a strange room, before you are emptied for sleep, what are you. And when you are filled with sleep you never were. I don’t know what I am. I don’t know if I am or not... how often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home.”

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wobblyheadedjane
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But in saying that rapists are made, not born, implies that someone or something else had a hand in creating them. Does the fact that people and society tend to revictimize the victim, in making reporting so difficult play a hand in things? Do fuzzy sexual boundaries? Yes, in part. But by saying that these things *make* rapists ends up taking agency and also resposibility from the hands of rapists. Essentially saying you cannot prosecute them because it wasn't their fault, society/culture/the bogeyman made them that way. Do you see the inherent danger in trying to make a statement like that?

[ 08-15-2006, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: wobblyheadedjane ]

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Heather
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The trouble is that rape is such a long-standing "tradition," that it'd be awfully hard to determine that. Many anthopologists and biologists have made arguments that is IS nature and nurture both.

But again, even having that argument is largely useless from my perspective. It's natural for humans to be omnivorous, for instance, but plenty of us choose not to be. It's natural for women to become pregnant, but plenty of us choose not to do that. Born or made, men (and women) still can choose not to rape just as easily as another person can choose not to eat meat.

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pockyqueen
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1) AYE to Miz Scarlet on the "power/control" bit. I don't think it's so much physical satisfaction as it is emotional satisfaction.

2) as to the nature vs. nurture issue: I'm no expert myself, but a friend of a friend lived in an abusive household where his father raped and beat his mother in a drunken rage several times a week. The friend of a friend is a very nice guy himself (not exactly "normal"... depressed, goth scene... but who's normal, really?) but last year he raped his best female friend and is now a registered sex offender. None of us could believe it at first, because he didn't seem like the psychopath woman hater that we associated rape with. So score one for nurture... but what about nature, then? I don't know myself.

As to that scary 60%... wow. Just... wow.

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Djuna
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When I said rapists were made not born, I meant as in there's no evil baby. Like that poem, 'show a child hate, it will learn to hate.' Does anyone know what it's called?

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“In a strange room, before you are emptied for sleep, what are you. And when you are filled with sleep you never were. I don’t know what I am. I don’t know if I am or not... how often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home.”

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000
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Well, I don't know. I think people have the choice to rape or not to rape, of course. But even sometimes other great apes, like gorillas and orangutans, rape. There does seem to be a difference in the sex drive of males and females, even though I believe culture works to overblow that in many, many instances.
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000
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do you think it would be possible to create a culture where rape of any kind was extremely rare?
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Heather
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quote:
But even sometimes other great apes, like gorillas and orangutans, rape.
Yes, but very rarely, and they don't have the capacity to control their actions as we do, or create the same sorts of social organization.

You might find this piece of interest: http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0903-05.htm. Here's also a very astute blog post by the amazing Ampersand on the subjst.

Per your second question, we've had them (matrilineal native american cultures before whites invaded are one example), we have them still (cultural anthropology is the area to peek into to look at instances). Without stating the obvious or sounding blithe, suffice it to say, we don't tend to see rape in lesbian separatist communities or intentional women's communities. But there is (and heading off to brunch with a visiting friend now, but I'd be glad to toss some reading list on this to the interested later) plenty of evidence that before the advent of patriarchy globally, rape was the exception, not the rule.

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Mr. Matthew
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I remember thinking, when I was a kid, maybe even before I was fully into puberty, that rape was the worst of all crimes. I thought it worse than murder, because rape, a woman had to live with.
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logic_grrl
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I hate to point this out, but that seems to amount to saying that rape survivors would be "better off dead".

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Mr. Matthew
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Oh, logic_grrl, don't hate to point it out. I should have pointed it out myself. I don't, now, think the way I did then. Young men and women in 1958 were not as well educated and sophisticated as they (and you perhaps -- I don't know your age) are now. I had a simple, immature, and idealistic view of the world. I did't think my thought through to its logical conclusion. Mine was an emotional response to how horrified I was at the thought of rape. I still am, but then I knew almost nothing about sex -- there was no Scarleteen, and I was psychologically upset even thinking about rape.

My point in saying what I did was to relive an old memory, and I wanted to share it with someone. Mostly, here, I try to serve by offering information and advice. I hope I'm not too vain, thinking I might have something to offer. Occassionally I'm moved to speak from the heart, rather than from the head. This was one of those times.

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000
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i don't know. from what i hear we really have very little evidence one way or another on whether rape was less common in native american communities. i know women had more freedom in a lot of ways than they did in older western culture, freedom to choose their lifestyle, freedom to be open about sex. But I don't know about freedom from sex w/ someone to which they were married, rape, etc..
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biblacknproud87
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That's really scary...really scary. Because the poll isn't asking "if the victim didn't have any emotional damage, etc. as a consequence" only if there was no consequence. That's extremely scary...very scary *is now scared*

*silence*

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Wise Janet Weiss
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.....60% *is scared with biblacknproud87*.

That's VERY SCARY.Especialy if you try to sum it up to how many men got that result(not by percentage) [Eek!]

[ 08-26-2006, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Tuxy ]

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Wise Janet Weiss
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*locks doors & windows*


And especially those rapists who murder..........
I stay in Guatemala thank you (Okay there are rapists here,but in a way it's kind of safe here.......as long as you stay in the safe side of the city).

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mellygirl
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When you said that 1 in 3 or 4 women are raped, that can be a separate category than this 60% of men. These 60% of men, if there were no consequences, would probably rape multiple times. Besides that, some of these women have been raped more than once. Also, I think I heard somewhere (though I could be very wrong) that a woman who's been raped or sexually abused is more likely to have it happen again. Putting this all together is just scary.

To be very honest, I like crazy sex, with the ripping of clothes that they talked about in the study. Guys who fantasize about ripping someone's clothes off and being sexually dominant can find women who enjoy that too. I don't understand this desire to emotionally rip someone up. They can show their power in other ways if they really want to... go chop some wood or walk girls home from night classes as a "bodyguard". Show power in a good way. And if they really want to hurt someone so badly, why can't they take it out on the rapists?

I just don't understand. I can't put myself in the mind of that and see that it's okay. Like, example, when I read "Gone with the Wind", my mind started to agree with what Scarlett was thinking and doing and the ways of the crazy money driven girl. And near the end of the book, I started to see what I was thinking and hoping for was completely against what I believe in. (The sign of an AMAZING author)... but I could never see that in rape. I couldn't ever put myself in a rapist's shoes and walk around in it. I couldn't ever understand that... it just doesn't work in my mind (I guess that's a good thing:)

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Heather
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quote:
To be very honest, I like crazy sex, with the ripping of clothes that they talked about in the study. Guys who fantasize about ripping someone's clothes off and being sexually dominant can find women who enjoy that too.
You know, I'm not finding any descriptions of CONSENSUAL sex in either of the studies quoted here, or the "ripping of clothes" discussed per consensual sex. I think it is REALLY vital not to conflate consensual sex with rape, or to presume that someone who wants to rape wants the same things someone wants in consnesual sex. Because it's not the ripping, what have you (when that even happens) that's the driver in rape: it is the lack of consent.

quote:
When you said that 1 in 3 or 4 women are raped, that can be a separate category than this 60% of men. These 60% of men, if there were no consequences, would probably rape multiple times. Besides that, some of these women have been raped more than once. Also, I think I heard somewhere (though I could be very wrong) that a woman who's been raped or sexually abused is more likely to have it happen again.
This is really important, too, and something I've tried to explain to my male partner, who, as he gains more awareness of these issues, is more and more horrified, feels more and more betrayed by HOW many men are or will be rapists. And I've had to try and explain a few times that one out of every 3/4 women raped does NOT mean that one out of every 3/4 men are rapists. Mind, it's not FAR off from that, but you do have to take recidivism into account.

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Djuna
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1 in 3 or 4? *scared*
I'm definitely not going to be OK with people walking home alone any more. I'm going with them.
Although the thing that worries me - what can I do? I'm probably no match physically for the average rapist - although if you factor in anger, and the fact that I only have to buy the victim time to run away - maybe... but it really worries me I couldn't defend my girlfriend or sister etc. adequately against this sort of thing... what does anyone else think about this?

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“In a strange room, before you are emptied for sleep, what are you. And when you are filled with sleep you never were. I don’t know what I am. I don’t know if I am or not... how often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home.”

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KittenGoddess
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Well, obviously using common sense when it comes to being out, especially at night, is good sense for EVERYONE...male or female. But the characterization of the unknown assailant as the "common rapist" is problematic. I don't have the numbers on me (perhaps Heather can supply those?), but it is more common to be assaulted by a friend, partner or aquaintanence.

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Sarah Liz

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wobblyheadedjane
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According to RAINN, strangers comprise about 31% of sexual assaults, while 67% are friends, dates, or relatives.

Quite a few university campuses offer foot patrols, which are pairs of 1 male and 1 female who escort anyone who calls them anywhere on campus (and sometimes beyond - my campus foot patrol could walk or drive me home, and I live about 20 minutes away from campus.) This is not just to prevent sexual assault of course, but also because there have been a number of robberies and drunken physical attacks on campus before.

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summergoddess
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First of all, rape is both nurture and nature. I would like to discuss that statement further. I would like to mention sexual abuse to tie in with rape. Sexual abuse is defined as one persona abusing someone else’s will in regards to sexual intercourse. Violence is part of the norm to be masculine because they are aggressive and physical. Violence is LEARNED . I do not think that we’re born to violate people. We learn it from people who abuse violence. So violence is a social power. Rape can be considered a sexual abuse.

Additionally, men are universally known to be the perpetrator to this act of sexual violation. Men want to gain power and they have the belief that they can gain that through the act of sex. A patriarchal indicative is male access to women’s bodies. The offender looks at females as sexual objects, not as an individual. Masculine men have docile bodies are seen as independent, successful sexually, physically tough and financially stable. However, men do suffer. They suffer through many things like the fear of inferiority, being measured up superiority to other men, the ideal of masculinity and the analyzing of reality as oppressive.

More over, rape accounts towards the ideal of masculinity. We are trained to look at rape as a blunt brute force. It should be seen in more subtle forms like for example, brotherhood.

The easiest way to look at brotherhood would be in university fraternities. Fraternities are mostly concerned with masculinity. Brotherhood is an overriding concern with masculinity and to a content, femininity. The brotherhood practices include loyalty, group protection, and secrecy. They use alcohol as their weapon. They use violence and physical force. There is competition and superiority. The fraternity’s use of women is seen as bait for new members, servers of brother’s needs, and as sexual prey. Basically fraternity brotherhood emphasizes macho conception of men and masculinity and a stereotyped conception of women and feminity and the treatment of women as commodities.

Again, Rape explicit power! Like heather said, rape is a long-standing tradition. The impact of violence gives the geography of fear, worry on individual basis, and modify behaviour and lack of freedom. The offenders overlook their victims’ will that foretells that they have no respect for their bodies. We choose to run to men who will protect us from violence. We decide when to go out, and who to go with.

It is a collective norm of masculinity. It gives the proof of superiority. Violence pressures come from the norm and thus created coercions. Rape and all kinds of other sexual violence immobilize women as individuals and as a group.

Thus, I believe rape is tied with nurture and nature together.

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mellygirl
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Smileyjoseph, it doesn't matter if you think that you could do any good to offer protection based on your size. I have guy friends who walk me places, and I think I (tiny as I am) am bigger than a couple of them. For me personally, it's the fact that there is someone else with me that makes me feel safer. And I prefer that someone to be a guy. Maybe it's because I feel like if therer are two of us, we're harder to attack than alone.... If you want to help, don't let your build stop you from showing your friends that you care about them and are concerned for their safety.

Oh, and one more thing? If I find myself walking alone, or with someone I find "unintimidting" (for lack of a better term, though I always love and appreciate ANY trusted nighttime companion), I carry my keys in my hand, with one or two of them sticking between my fingers so if I have to punch I can do enough damage to run! And I usually at least pretend to be on a cell phone (even if it's completely dead!) because I feel like people are less likely to try something if they think I could possibly have instant communication with help!

[ 08-27-2006, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: mellygirl ]

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Djuna
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That's good to hear. I'll remember the key thing too. [Big Grin]

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“In a strange room, before you are emptied for sleep, what are you. And when you are filled with sleep you never were. I don’t know what I am. I don’t know if I am or not... how often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home.”

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Heather
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quote:
Sexual abuse is defined as one persona abusing someone else’s will in regards to sexual intercourse.
Just a clarficication: sexual abuse and rape isn't just about intercourse. It can and does occur with a multitude of sexual activities (and can also be part of verbal or emotional abuse).

(And Jules, if you haven't already, Robin Morgan's "The Demon Lover" is something I think you'd very much like to read in respect to some of what you've said above.)

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Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
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Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Prince Virtu
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Whoa- just read most of this thread, then went to the linked articles looking for loopholes in the reasoning, research, wording, whatever. Didn't find any. Scary. I suppose not entirely shocking if one looks at it from the right angle, because so much that's wrong with the world is about people feeling entitled to some sort of power or other, but still. I can understand enjoying power over people, say, the way one can enjoy telling a joke, knowing that it will make people laugh. But I can't grasp the idea of anyone enjoying power at other people's expense. It's kind of pathetic, really.

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"God creates men, but they choose each other."
"Veni, vidi, velcro- I came, I saw, I stuck around."

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