Donate Now
We've Moved! Check out our new boards.
  
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive) » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sex in Media: Books, Magazines, Films, TV & More » Buffy Vs. Edward

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Buffy Vs. Edward
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My intense Buffy fangirlness notwithdtanding, I think this -- http://blip.tv/file/2261825/ -- is seriously brilliant.

It does a really amazing job of showing up the abusive things the Twilight series romanticizes. Plus? Very funny, and it also (okay, save the staking and violence) isn't a bad basic guidebook on the way to respond to abusive/controlling behavior.

[ 06-23-2009, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Heather ]

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
StrangePudding
Activist
Member # 40765

Icon 1 posted      Profile for StrangePudding     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hee! I haven't liked Twilight for a long time, for various reasons...but Edward's weird possessiveness certainly hasn't helped things. That plus my starting to watch the Buffy series made this fun [Big Grin]
Posts: 222 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
orca
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 33665

Icon 1 posted      Profile for orca     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Awesome! God, he is SO creepy! And just a smidge pathetic. Too bad I can't turn all the creepy 40+ year olds that hit on me into dust.

[ 06-23-2009, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: orca ]

--------------------
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.--Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Posts: 2726 | From: North America | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
(Oh, you can, Stefanie, you just need to craft a few effective getaway lines. I suggest something like, "I already have a Dad, thanks." That should be about as close to dust as it gets, especially for guys who are trying to delude themselves about being the age that they are. [Razz] )

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ecofem
Activist
Member # 13388

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ecofem     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, that's excellent in so many ways-- thanks for sharing! [Smile] I have read the Twilight books 1,2,4; while I liked certain aspects of the plot, the creepy abusive stalker vibes really kept me from totally getting into it. It'll be interested to finally watch the film; unfortunately, it looks scarer than I had expected! While I only saw the first and second seasons of Buffy when it came out, I want to watch more and now have even more reasons to start catching up. [Wink]

[ 06-23-2009, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Ecofem ]

Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Karybu
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 20094

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Karybu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is awesome! I love Buffy (it may be time to rewatch from the beginning) and this is such a fantastic way of showing how caring and considerate Edward is NOT.

(A bit off topic, but I worked in a bookstore for a few months over this past Christmas season, and found it kind of disturbing how very popular the Twilight books were, and how romantic everyone seemed to think the relationship between Edward and Bella was.)

--------------------
"Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." -Arundhati Roy

Posts: 5799 | From: Canada/Australia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
September
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 25425

Icon 1 posted      Profile for September     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And I always knew that Buffy would kick Edward's glittering butt if given half a chance. [Big Grin]

Gawd, yes. Twilight is beyond creepy. I do not understand the fascination.

--------------------
Johanna
Scarleteen Volunteer

"The question is not who will let me, but who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand

Posts: 9192 | From: Cologne, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
-Lauren-
Activist
Member # 25983

Icon 1 posted      Profile for -Lauren-     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Holy idealized stalker behavior Batman!

That is CREEPY, what the hell. I've never had anything to do with Twilight, and now I'm super glad I haven't.

Posts: 4636 | From: USA/Northern Europe | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Onionpie
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 41699

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Onionpie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ahaha, this is hilarious. I laughed so hard at the scene when he's in her room. I love buffy. Buffy compared to bella is like... well, I won't say the cliche, but you know what it's like. Buffy kicks serious butt and has zero tolerance for shit. Which Edward is full of. I wish more preteen/teen girls watched buffy instead of reading twilight xD Good lord, look at me, saying kids should watch tv instead of reading =P Yes, Twilight is THAT creepy.
Posts: 1311 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cool87
Activist
Member # 29292

Icon 1 posted      Profile for cool87         Edit/Delete Post 
There's abusive scenes in Buffy too, especially when it comes to Spike in particular.

I think Spike could be compared to Edward, he's just abusive too but in another way, by using violence instead of stalking.

I remember in some of the episodes were sex was involved between Buffy and Spike, I got the impression that they considered violence as sexy but really Spike was just violent towards Buffy and abusive. I remember in particular a scene where she almost get raped by him.

[ 06-28-2009, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: cool87 ]

--------------------
Sustain Scarleteen by donating
http://www.scarleteen.com/donate.html

Posts: 3598 | From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cool87
Activist
Member # 29292

Icon 1 posted      Profile for cool87         Edit/Delete Post 
I should note too that it also disturbs me that the relationship between Bella and Edward is seen as a loving relationship, as an idealistic relationship by some people, especially young girls.

My 13 years old sister went to see the movie with some of her friends when it came out and I remember when she came back home how she was saying that she got a crush on Edward and that she'd like to have a boyfriend like him and like putting posters of him up on the wall. Pretty worrisome to idealize such a relationship when you know it's not an healthy relationship but rather an abusive one.

But for me, the abuse is something I realized just while reading the Twilight series and not right after reading the first book. I didn't see either the abuse in the movie at first but now if I rewatched it, I probably would since I now know it's abusive, it's just easier to see the signs now that you know that it's abuse.

I don't know if for you the abuse is something you realized was going on while watching the movie even before reading the books or if that's something you realized while reading the books ?

[ 06-28-2009, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: cool87 ]

--------------------
Sustain Scarleteen by donating
http://www.scarleteen.com/donate.html

Posts: 3598 | From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
September
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 25425

Icon 1 posted      Profile for September     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, with the obvious difference that, while Meyer frames her novel as a romantic story that we should all swoon over, and Edward as a guy every girl should want to be with, Whedon makes it very clear that Buffy realizes she's in an abusive relationship (and ends it for that reason) and that Spike's attempt at raping her is totally and completely unacceptable behaviour.

--------------------
Johanna
Scarleteen Volunteer

"The question is not who will let me, but who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand

Posts: 9192 | From: Cologne, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KittenGoddess
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 1679

Icon 1 posted      Profile for KittenGoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I dug this back up because I've finally had the *dubious* pleasure (blah) of reading these books and just had to comment. I got them like 4th hand from my sister...there's no way either of us would have actually purchased these...

What a load of junk.

First off, I completely agree with Stephen King...Meyer is not a good writer. The writing style is a nightmare. It's just not well done.

Secondly, the creepy relationship dynamics were even creepier than I'd heard. I could barely stomach the fact that this is being put out there to young people as being "ideal" love. It's creepy, it's abusive, it's stalker-ish. I'm not sure there are enough words to describe how many problems I have with the themes in these books.

I just...bah...

I had to look up this video to watch just to make myself feel better after reading the first two books. The idea of Buffy staking his sorry rear is now even more satisfying.

--------------------
Sarah Liz

Posts: 7316 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
-Lauren-
Activist
Member # 25983

Icon 1 posted      Profile for -Lauren-     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Glad to see this bumped, actually! I just had the sick pleasure of reading the blog of a gay man who has subjected himself to reading this garbage. I'm not sure if it's okay to link, but it's pretty funny and you really empathize with his experience. Suffice it to say, it's just beyond wrong and beyond creepy. Not even in the relationship with Edward; there are so many other troublesome relationships and problems I just can't even sum it up. I'm surprised no one's raised a storm over the parenting skills of this "dream couple", FFS.

Most infuriating of all is when people try to defend it as "feminist" like Bella is some kind of icon. She CHOOSES to let the creepy behavior happen and to submit herself -- nay, enjoy! -- all the crap from Edward. She "wears the pants"! She's empowered by her choice and she chooses her choice, and it's all about choice, dash it all!

Posts: 4636 | From: USA/Northern Europe | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bun Bun
Activist
Member # 37353

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bun Bun     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I luckily have NOT read the Twilight books. But from what I've heard, I definitely wouldn't like them. Actually one of my good friends quite likes the series, but she's reassured me she understands and recognizes that Edward is a total creep and the relationships in the book are completely unhealthy. What's funny is a I was having a conversation with a girl I met recently in a physics lab, and Twilight came up. The first thing she said was "Did you know Edward actually shows a whole bunch of signs of an abuser?!" I just about got up and hugged her XD Absolutely drives me crazy when people, usually girls, tell me how romantic the story is. Especially since certain parts of their "romance" reminds me of my own abusive relationship. So it can be slightly triggering.

I actually did see the movie however. It was one of those "Well there's nothing on TV so what the heck" moments with my boyfriend. I gotta say, it was so bad it was funny. Whenever Edward got that look on his face when Bella was around, it looked like he suddenly got explosive diarrhea... XD

Posts: 206 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jill2000Plus
Activist
Member # 41657

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jill2000Plus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Bun Bun:
I actually did see the movie however. It was one of those "Well there's nothing on TV so what the heck" moments with my boyfriend. I gotta say, it was so bad it was funny. Whenever Edward got that look on his face when Bella was around, it looked like he suddenly got explosive diarrhea... XD

I was similarly amused when watching clips of Dragonball Z "Grrrrgh I'm just going to stand here looking constipated", I love anime but that show is kinda ridiculous.

I don't like Edward's behaviour either, stalking and possessiveness are not good things to have in a relationship.

--------------------
Always knock before entering my room when I am in there alone, as I may be doing all sorts of wonderfully thrilling things that I'd rather you didn't see.

Posts: 840 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KittenGoddess
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 1679

Icon 1 posted      Profile for KittenGoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure I could handle sitting through the movies...that might just be more than I could take.

I finished the third book last night and I really think it just gets worse the further I read. Nothing like sexual assault not once, but TWICE (unwanted kissing that was either forced and/or coerced) that was written off because he had "misinterpreted" her trying to get away as "passion". I swear, all I could see was red when I got through.

It's like this nutty author set out to show every unhealthy, abusive relationship example she could figure out how to work in. Then played to nearly every nasty gender stereotype she could come up with. And the tops it off with a healthy dose of "Hey, let's blame the victim for assault and let the bad guy totally off the hook!"

--------------------
Sarah Liz

Posts: 7316 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
-Lauren-
Activist
Member # 25983

Icon 1 posted      Profile for -Lauren-     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"And the tops it off with a healthy dose of "Hey, let's blame the victim for assault and let the bad guy totally off the hook!"'

Oh, oh! And then Bella's dad is like "What happened, why is your hand hurt and Jacob got punched?! Why?" And then she tells him and he's all GOOD JOB SON, GOOD JOB. Nice concern dad. And later Bella realizes that through the power and romance of the rape-kiss, she loves Jacob too!

And waaaay later, we realize that Jacob doesn't love Bella! He "imprinted" on the ovum that would become her infant daughter and then falls in love with her 5 minutes after her birth. Seriously.

Posts: 4636 | From: USA/Northern Europe | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
September
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 25425

Icon 1 posted      Profile for September     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh ... you're really going to love the fourth book, Sarah. I don't know what was more obnoxiously blatant, the abstinence-until-marriage agenda or the anti-choice agenda, but they each made me throw the book at the wall in turns. If I hadn't been reading it solely to quote it in a paper, I'd have burned the darn thing.

[ 02-19-2010, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: September ]

--------------------
Johanna
Scarleteen Volunteer

"The question is not who will let me, but who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand

Posts: 9192 | From: Cologne, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rachelh27
Neophyte
Member # 42476

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rachelh27     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been lurking around the forum all morning, and found this topic pretty great.

Oh, Twilight, where do I begin? I loved you so much two summers ago. Read all four books in like two weeks. But I have to say, the more I think about it... the creepier it is.

What really scares me about the twilight series is that girls, of ALL ages, think that Edward's behavior as a boyfriend is not only normal, but romantic. They want to be stalked and controlled and told what to do! I have seen many a facebook group somewhere along the lines of, "Edward Cullen is a fictional character and he will never love you" which I think is a pretty solid choice of words.

I've come to the conclusion that really, the only thing good about Twilight was the movie casting director's choices. It may not be a great story, but those boys sure are nice to look at [Razz]

Posts: 34 | From: New York | Registered: Mar 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Green iPod
Activist
Member # 42060

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Green iPod     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A lot of the fans who are so into the books won't listen if you try to point out how Edward is abusive. Most of the time they just go, " HE DOESNT HIT HER!"
Posts: 47 | From: Florida | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Atonement
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 42492

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Atonement     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The other day my 10 year old sister wanted to read these books. My mom, who knew I read them, asked my opinion. I told her I didn't think it was a good idea for her to read them at this age.

While I did enjoy certain aspects of the story, none of the relationships it put on a pedestal were healthy.

First of all, I know she was trying to echo Romeo and Juliet, but I really didn't like the way she tried to make suicide over the death of a partner look romantic. Edward's character is just too obsessive. To paint that as healthy or ideal is a very unwise choice.

I actually really liked the character Jacob at first. Then he got all pushy. He started out as a really good character, then he refused to respect her boundaries, which entirely ruined him. If she had left him the way he was before he whole werewolf thing, he probably would've made a good leading character.

Posts: 444 | From: United States | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
A lot of the fans who are so into the books won't listen if you try to point out how Edward is abusive. Most of the time they just go, " HE DOESNT HIT HER!"
...which is also how a lot of people react to emotional abuse, period, including people being abused. [Frown]

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
littlespoon
Neophyte
Member # 43465

Icon 1 posted      Profile for littlespoon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh I ADORE that clip.
"Let me just try one thing..." ahaha hilarious.

I think it goes without saying that Stephenie Meyer is promoting some seriously effed up relationship values. Amoung other things that have been mentioned here, it's interesting how throughout the series Bella is given responsibility over Edward's self-control around her: like, she can't kiss him or touch him in a certain way, because he'll be too intoxicated by her delicious smelling blood and might accidently kill her. Oops, her bad.

The werewolves also provide another glaringly obvious bit of disturbingness- one of the werewolves' wives has scars all over her body and a mangled face, because when he tranforms, he 'loses control' and accidently, you know, mauls her. But it's cool and everything because he loves her so much! And he can't help it, it's just what werewolves do and he just gets so angry sometimes and...where have I heard this before?

--------------------
This is our last dance; this is ourselves.

Posts: 29 | From: Australia | Registered: Jul 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nightshade
Activist
Member # 45255

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Nightshade     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Twilight, how I hate it so...

Yes, I read the book when I was fourteen. Thought it was cute, moved on with my life. Cue a year later and this massive wave of fan blah. Move on another year or so, and my introduction to Scarleteen and my reading of the pieces on abusive relationships. Start to connect the dots...

Ever since then I have been rather avidly against Twilight. Not only because of the poor writing style but also the abusive relationships being put on a pedestal and -worshiped-. I try and speak against Twilight every chance I can get. Friends, parents, younger siblings of friends and the internet. My boyfriend calls it, "my lightning bolt." If someone even begins to sing it's praise, the wrath of Zeus comes down! I do try and be as rational as possible though. And I have managed to sway several people's opinions, especially when bringing up the abusive aspect. But there are those people who just stop up their ears and sing, "la la la la." But what can you do except keep trying?

Loved the video, love Buffy.

Posts: 43 | From: Raleigh, NC | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Trilly
Neophyte
Member # 46900

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Trilly     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Let me begin by saying that all in all, my balance is heavier on the side of not liking Twilight.

However, despite the poor literary value, I did spend sleepless nights enjoying the novel, and admittedly, I was turned on by a few scenes here and there. Now, perhaps that is more indicative of my vampire kinks than anything, but I like to think I have a balanced, realistic attitude towards Meyer's books.

When I read Twilight, I was 17 and already sexually educated, enlightened, and formally against Western Religion and Society's insistence that there is "The One" who you're meant to be with for the rest of your life. So although I was annoyed at Bella's ramblings about how she couldn't live without Edward, I took the book for what it is, and should be treated as. A BOOK, not a theme on which to base all my future romantic relationships.

And so in the context that I described previously, I do not believe Twilight is destructive. Unfortunately, with the armies of pre-teens and young teens reading the book and then feeding it blindly into their developing personal romantic ideals, it is to the overwhelming majority of its audience.

I would also like to elaborate on what littlespoon said above regarding the werewolf mauling. Western Society is slowly beginning a recovery from the assumption that if two people love each other that should be enough to keep them together, regardless of financial and sexual stresses, as well as uncontrollable circumstances that may affect a partnership. The fact that Sam the werewolf loves his girlfriend dearly OBVIOUSLY isn't enough to keep her safe, and an unsafe environment is just one example of why a given relationship MUST end for the betterment of all parties.

In closing, Buffy is amazing, and this video made my day. Thanks so much for making my day more laughable!

--------------------
"Every relationship you are ever going to be in will fail until one doesn't!" Dan Savage, Savage Love Podcast

Posts: 9 | From: Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: May 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
existentialplastic
Neophyte
Member # 46867

Icon 1 posted      Profile for existentialplastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
THIS! I love that video so much because when I criticize Twilight, a lot of the people who agree with me just agree because it's "girly." It's really comforting to see that there are hordes of people who not only agree with me about the troublesome relationship dynamics but independently reached that conclusion and care enough to complain about it.

I'm not sure if I think the book is destructive or not, although I did read one news story about an NYPD officer who sexually harassed a detective and sent her text messages asking for her forgiveness, comparing it to "Bella forgiving Jacob." I'm inclined to think these attitudes would exist with or without the series, but I think its popularity is serving as a justification for the idea that women just want men to be "old-fashioned gentlemen." I read a pro-Twilight argument once that said Edward Cullen has six of the seven characteristics of sociopaths (you need four to be diagnosed). The seventh is remorse. The author argued that because he has remorse, he is not a sociopath but an ideal person to be with. So apparently it's okay to act like a sociopath in every facet of your life, as long as you feel really bad about it.

That is not what I want. This is what I want: http://www.jinx.com/men/shirts/geek/buffy_staked_edward.html

Posts: 3 | From: Texas | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One of my friends got me that t-shirt for my birthday last week. [Smile]

--------------------
Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen
About Me • Get our book!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posts: 68290 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jill2000Plus
Activist
Member # 41657

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jill2000Plus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I want that T-shirt, but I have no money spare for frivolities and I did just get the awesome Iron-Man T-shirt they're selling in HMV right now.

--------------------
Always knock before entering my room when I am in there alone, as I may be doing all sorts of wonderfully thrilling things that I'd rather you didn't see.

Posts: 840 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Get the Whole Story! Go Home to SCARLETEEN: Sex Ed for the Real World | Privacy Statement

Copyright 1998, 2014 Heather Corinna/Scarleteen
Scarleteen.com: Providing comprehensive sex education online to teens and young adults worldwide since 1998

Information on this site is provided for educational purposes. It is not meant to and cannot substitute for advice or care provided by an in-person medical professional. The information contained herein is not meant to be used to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease, or for prescribing any medication. You should always consult your own healthcare provider if you have a health problem or medical condition.

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3