Donate Now
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Got Questions? Get Answers. » SCARLETEEN CENTRAL » Sexual Ethics and Politics » School Expels Girl for Having Gay Parents

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: School Expels Girl for Having Gay Parents
coolestdesignz
Activist
Member # 18028

Icon 1 posted      Profile for coolestdesignz     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1151655

This is pretty sad. It's what happens when people let their religion drive their entire life. Although, they probably should have known better than to have that sort of lifestyle and send their kid to a Catholic school.

I guess it's the insensitivity and the intolerance that gets to me.


Posts: 203 | From: Laguna Niguel, CA, USA | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Beppie
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 94

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Beppie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by coolestdesignz:
It's what happens when people let their religion drive their entire life.

I think it might be more accurate to say that this is what happens when people try to make their own religion drive someone else's life. I just want to make the distinction because many people of all religions centre their lives around their faith in a way that is cool and healthy.

In some ways, I feel that the girl is better off out of a school like that, where she would be taught that her parents were immoral, simply because they are in a loving, monogamous relationship.

However, it is disgusting that this sort of discrimination occurs, and hypocritical too, since Christianity teaches that you shouldn't judge others, and that each person is treated as an individual before God-- what your parents do has no bearing on your own spiritual and/or moral status. It is also pretty clear that these parents were singled out because of their homosexuality-- while the policy might state that at least one of the parents must have a so-called "moral" lifestyle, had an unmarried heterosexual couple turned up at the school, I bet you they wouldn't have been asking for a marriage certificate.

[This message has been edited by Beppie (edited 09-26-2005).]


Posts: 2710 | From: Australia | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
coolestdesignz
Activist
Member # 18028

Icon 1 posted      Profile for coolestdesignz     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
OK... this is the result of blind obeisance to a religion.
Posts: 203 | From: Laguna Niguel, CA, USA | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PERVasive
Activist
Member # 25065

Icon 1 posted      Profile for PERVasive     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I certainly join with all of you in the wish for a more tolerant world. Our society at large should be open to everyone, regardless of backround or personal life. However, it seems to me that for a religious organization to exclude people it considers to be immoral is perfectly legitimate, and I have no problem with it. I would also like to point out that the hypocrisy is not so clear scripturally. The bible does say that homosexuality is a sin. In fact, that commandment is one thing that I struggle with in my own Jewish religious beliefs.

------------------
- PERVasive

"Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education." - Mark Twain


Posts: 64 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LilBlueSmurf
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 1207

Icon 1 posted      Profile for LilBlueSmurf     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How can you give certain groups right to exclude others? On one hand you wish for a more tolerant world, and then you give another group permission to do it because of their religious beliefs ... ?! I don't even know what to say to that.

It's either right or it's wrong. Wanting society to be more tolerant, and then deciding who should and shouldn't have to be tolerant is counterproductive, at best.

As well, this isn't even about the little girl, it's about her parents. You don't get to choose your parents, and you certainly don't get to choose your parents' sexual ortientation.

[This message has been edited by LilBlueSmurf (edited 09-27-2005).]


Posts: 7168 | From: Ontario | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They're not talking about Biblical edicts, they're using an incredibly vague standard -- "Christian lifestyle" -- which is 100% arbitrary.

And actually, biblically speaking, the bible only references homosexuality not being okay directly in two contexts:

1. Per ALL sex that is NOT for the purposes of procreation not being okay (and I have this funny feeling you won't find a religious school expelling students whose parents do that), and
2. Per homosexual forcible rape not being okay.

(Besides, the Bible lists LOTS of things as sins, such as, say interest on a debt, which the school, like most, likely commits daily by affixing fees to parents who cannot pay tuition in one lump sum. Of course, even in DOING this, the school itself is engaging in practices which are by no means in alignment with a myriad of new testament passages. Intolerance itself is very much counter to Jesus' teachings.)

You're certainly entitled to your opinion in this respect PERVasive (though, boy, it sure stands counter to some other things you've asked about on these boards before), however, bear in mind we're clearly talking about discrimination here, and discrimination which keeps a third party (the child) from an education.

And chances are, if this family sues (though sounds like they don't want to -- likely they're too disgusted to want to be part of it anymore), the law won't favor the school, unless they have, clearly in their enrollment rules, that same-sex partnered families may not enroll children, which it's doubtful they do have, since the family likely would have noticed this before enrollment and in paying tuition (and actually, an expulsion likely means they're keeping the tuition, a point which is going to be even more in the family's favor).

------------------
Heather Corinna
Editor & Founder
ST homepage • ST blog • about Heather & Scarleteen


Posts: 68189 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PERVasive
Activist
Member # 25065

Icon 1 posted      Profile for PERVasive     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It doesn't have to be so black and white. Living in a tolerant society does NOT mean that everyone in that society has to tolerate everything. If a Methodist signed up for a Jewish youth group, the youth group would have every right to exclude them, clearly. If a local gay BDSM group wanted to exclude a straight couple, it would be legitimate for the same reason: the purposes of the organizations inherently restrict membership to a particular demographic. The religious school excluding a student with gay parents falls into that same category. The mark of a truly tolerant society is that all people have equal opportunity to succeed, that not only is the overall society integrated, but there exist subsets of that society which are not, and that those less diverse pockets are not feared as a threat to the fairness of the overall society.

I'm willing to bet that someone will respond to this post by accusing me of defending the "right to discriminate" or being a segregationsist or something. I am not going to respond to anyone who wishes to misinterpret what I will say here in such a way, because I know that it will be a pointless argument.

Edit: I hadn't seen Miss Scarlet's post when I wrote this. I didn't know the details of the case from the short article. Perhaps in this case the school was acting inconsistent with its own policies, and perhaps the family does have a legitimate legal case. I was more writing in response to the assumption that any organization that exludes gay people is intolerant and therefore intolerable (it is certainly possible that no one who has posted in this thread has that belief, but I know there are people who do, and some of the posts could certainly be read that way). Anyway, I don't really see how the school exluding the student is denying anyone an education, since in this country access to public school is a right.

------------------
- PERVasive

"Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education." - Mark Twain

[This message has been edited by PERVasive (edited 09-27-2005).]


Posts: 64 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Beppie
Scarleteen Volunteer
Member # 94

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Beppie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PERVasive:
I would also like to point out that the hypocrisy is not so clear scripturally. The bible does say that homosexuality is a sin.

I meant that they were hypocritical due to the Christian belief, which is pretty straightforward, that you should not pass judgement on your fellow humans, even if they are doing someting that you believe to be sinful, due to the interpretation of the Bible that you follow. Many people actually hold that the potential to misinterpret is the reason behind the whole "do not judge" idea.

[This message has been edited by Beppie (edited 09-28-2005).]


Posts: 2710 | From: Australia | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anyway, I don't really see how the school exluding the student is denying anyone an education, since in this country access to public school is a right.

Ummm, which is exactly what legal discrimination literally is: denying a person or group something which is their legal, constitutional or human right.

Yes, *public* education in the states is what that right is, rather than all education. This is a school's loophole in this case, however, the legal issue here -- were a case made -- is that its standards are vague, weren't executed clearly before the fact, aren't being applied to the student herself, aren't being applied to all families no doubt, and in addition, if, for instance, the students public choices could be shown to be inaccessible or substandard, it'd be insanely easy to show the school in the legal wrong really easily.

To expel (different from excluse -- it's after the fact) a student based on a very arbitrary and selective standard, one which is no doubt (and in this case, clearly) not unilaterally applied, and which has been applied not even to the student herself, is denying that student an education to which she is entitled.

(And indeed, for the record, this school does charge interest on its parents debts: http://www.ocschools.org/busofc/ In fact, looking through their website, there are plenty of Biblical issues they clearly could care less about. Agan, they are being selectve as to WHICH "Christian" standards they employ, which in and of itself is pretty un-Christian. But the whole rot is really a joke, since it's really easily supportible from so, so many texts and passages to show that Jesus -- again, they're saying Christian, not Biblical -- would in no way have been down with this sort of discrimination.)

Just as a geek, this is the variety of Christianity this school subscribes to: http://www.crcna.org/whoweare/beliefs/index.asp


Posts: 68189 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nicky NK
Neophyte
Member # 23645

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Nicky NK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, PERvasive, you said (quote):
"It doesn't have to be so black and white."

But you see, the sad thing is, it DOES to most hyper-religious people, who think that gay and lesbian relationships are a crime against nature (which is why I am an atheist. Ooooh, ahhh, I'm a sinner, better burn me at the stake, all you religious types out there!) I mean, think of all the *true* crimes against nature which have been committed, "in the name of God (or gods)":

-The Crusades (Where so-called "Holy Warriors" went around butchering whole villages, burning and looting, raping and killing indiscrimanetly)

-The war in Iraq (Where thousands of women and children have died because some bigheads up in the White House can't admit they're wrong)

-The Holocaust (Remember, Hitler was saying that Jews were sinners, so I make little distinction between Nazis and some religious types saying that gays are sinners)

-The Salem Witch Trials (where innocent women and girls were burned alive because they were considered "evil")

-Any other number of hateful atrocities committed against people who are different.

In conclusion, people have *GOT* to get over being hateful towards people who are different. Through all of history, we haven't done that. IF we did, the world would be a much better place.

-Nicky


Posts: 28 | From: Boise, ID, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Heather
Executive Director & Founder
Member # 3

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Heather     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
which is why I am an atheist. Ooooh, ahhh, I'm a sinner, better burn me at the stake, all you religious types out there!

While I recognize this may be playful, this sort of poke in a thread like this both does NOT elicit tolernace, nor does it enrich or assist the levelness of the discussion at hand.

It's also pretty ignorant: not only do many, many, many of the world's religions not have concepts of "sin," many have no history of burning anyone at the stake. In addition, there are actually a great many people in the world who ARE Judeo-Christian "religious types" to whom that approach and treatment is beyond abhorrent and seriously upsetting.

If y'all want to discuss topics like this here, please park this sort of thing at the door, eh? Otherwise, I just close these threads, because we have, in our user agreement, a responsiliblty to do what we can here to keep ALL users from harassment and discrimination. That includes "religious types."

------------------
Heather Corinna
Editor & Founder
ST homepage • ST blog • about Heather & Scarleteen


Posts: 68189 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PERVasive
Activist
Member # 25065

Icon 1 posted      Profile for PERVasive     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Beppie - Many teachings from the bible are mutually contradictory, and therein lies the quandary. An action might be hypocritical by the standard of one religious teaching, but ethically required by another. As someone who believes in the divine content of the bible (just the old testament, since I'm Jewish ), I continually struggle with contradictions such as this one. I personally lean towards the view that homosexuality is part of Gd's plan, but the fact that the bible specifically says that it is wrong in several places means that the issue is still open for me, and likely won't be closed any time soon.

Miss Scarlet - I certainly concede that the legal details of this case may be in favor of the student's family. It seems like this debate has gotten to be more about general principles by this point, though. As to the right to a public school education, my point was that going to private school is not a right that a student is entitled to. The student is not being denied an education, because she has every right to enroll in a public school, and she is certainly not being denied her right to an education because going to private school is a privilege.

------------------
- PERVasive

"Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education." - Mark Twain

[This message has been edited by PERVasive (edited 09-28-2005).]


Posts: 64 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Get the Whole Story! Go Home to SCARLETEEN: Sex Ed for the Real World | Privacy Statement

Copyright 1998, 2014 Heather Corinna/Scarleteen
Scarleteen.com: Providing comprehensive sex education online to teens and young adults worldwide since 1998

Information on this site is provided for educational purposes. It is not meant to and cannot substitute for advice or care provided by an in-person medical professional. The information contained herein is not meant to be used to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease, or for prescribing any medication. You should always consult your own healthcare provider if you have a health problem or medical condition.

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3