Some of you likely have heard about the t-shirt that Planned Parenthood had put on sale. Across the chest, it says "I had an abortion", and it's upset some people, as you might expect. It seems to have sold out, at least at the PP store.

There's a news article about it here. (You have to register to look at it, but it is free.)

For those of you who don't register, though, here's the gist:

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Emily Steinberg, 24, for one, is grateful. A graduate student in deaf cultural studies at Gallaudet University, she saw a number of women wearing the T-shirts at the March for Women's Lives, an abor-tion-rights march in Washington, D.C., this spring.

The T-shirts made a powerful statement to Steinberg, who had not even told the woman she was marching with about her abortion. She ordered a shirt for herself.

Though she has not worn it in public, it is an important symbol for her.

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Olivia Gans, director of American Victims of Abortion, an outreach group of the National Right to Life Committee, said her organization was "stunned and appalled" by the shirt. Gans, who speaks openly about her 1981 abortion, which she now regrets, said, "[Planned Parenthood] seems to think that if everyone just wears these shirts, [abortion] will seem more normal. In my experience, whether women are strongly pro-abortion or pro-life, the experience is never normal--it's always profound."

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Something, off the top, that I find interesting is that the Chicago Tribune has ghettoized this story, and, I suspect, many others, by putting it in a "women's news" section. I hate that.

I guess I do have mixed feelings about this. I can understand how people, frankly, might see this as too much information. If I don't know you, I have no reason to know that about you.

It's one thing to tell people you know about your personal experiences. If one of my friends were to talk to me about this, it would resonate with me. A perfect stranger? Not nearly as much.

But that's just me. What about you?

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"Like a bat out of hell, time has come for you!"
-Ballad of a Comeback Kid, The New Pornographers

Had i had an abortion, i would never wear such a T shirt. I don't know anyone who would.

I think it is way too much information for the whole world to know. Close friends, sure, but not strangers you see walking down the street.

While i don't like the fact that she used the term 'pro abortion', i think Olivia Gans was right (not that i know from personal experience); it's probably a very profound experience for people. And so it should be. I am strongly pro choice, but something like abortion should never be taken lightly ... And i think that's exactly what these shirts make it out to be.

In other words, even someone saying "X experience is always profound," is both presumptuous and patronizing (and it's an attitude that is constantly applied to all aspects of female reproduction, an attitude which leaves a lot of women in the cold: those who didn't enjoy childbirth or pregnancy, who didn't care for first time intercourse or find it anything major, etc.). I did have a surgical abortion. I wouldn't classify my experience as profound, and I know plenty of other women who also have not experienced abotion as a great profundity. Honestly, the only way I'd describe my abortion as anything close to that was not because of the abortion itself, but because of the environment it occurred in which is unsupportive of abortion and treats it like a dirty secret.

There are similar sorts of buttons and t-shirts about sexual abuse or rape to promote visibility. They're not for everyone, but I by no means think they're a bad thing or that they mean something is being taken lightly. When I had a car, I had a similar bumper sticker. Even if we are talking about an experience that was profound, how does stating the experience was had, audibly or visibly, make it any less important? How it keeping it secret somehow doing the opposite?

I would likely wear a t-shirt like that myself, just to add in as a someone that would.

In terms of feeling like that was "too much information" to know about someone, might you feel the same about a t-shirt that said "I'm a mother," or "I gave a child up for adoption," or for that matter, "I have breast cancer," or "I'm queer," or "I gave blood?" If those things feel different to you, why?

What they're doing is challenging the idea that it's something which women are supposed to be ashamed about and keep secret.

At the moment, I believe the statistics are that about 1 in 3 women in the US will have an abortion at some point in their lives. That's a huge, huge number of women.

But because very few of them talk about it outside their close friends/family (and some don't tell anyone at all), it's possible for anti-choice campaigns to go on promoting myths and stereotypes about women who have abortions either being evil and selfish or all traumatized for life.

In 1970, during the battle to legalize abortion in France, a key moment was the "Manifesto of the 343" , which was signed by many famous women including Simone de Beauvoir and Marguerite Duras:

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"A million women have abortions in France each year ... I declare that I am one of them, I have had an abortion. "

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A few things I forgot to add: How long before men start wearing the t-shirts ironically? Like the "I'm a lesbian (but nobody knows it)" type ones? How does that rub you?

And do the people who wear them realize that when they're wearing them, all that they are to others they pass on the street is a person who's had an abortion? When you put on such a shirt, you become it and nothing else, it seems to me. If you wear the shirt, I hope you're ready for strangers to talk with you about your abortion. If you wear it, I hope you're ready for that to be the first (and lasting) impression someone has of you, if you make any new acquaintances that day.

Finally, it just seems like fishing for attention. Just like all of the other potential shirts that you've mentioned, Miz S., and a million others that already exist. If you're my friend - if I have some connection to you, I'll care. If not, I really don't have time to. Sorry if that sounds harsh, it's just that we all have things that make us, us. We all have things that we've had to deal with in our pasts, things we have to deal with in the present - we just don't all feel the need to broadcast them to the general population, thankfully.

If you want to wear it at a march for reproductive rights, or at your feminist reading group, or in your home or any other place that's vaguely appropriate, I have no problem with that.

But if you want to wear it while running errands at the bank? Sorry. I'm bombarded with enough messages each and every day as it is.

I like being faced with important messages. I wish I were faced with more. In fact, I feel... bizarre, really, when I'm not. Just this weekend, I spent an afternoon with a bunch of my girlfriend's friends from high school. She grew up in a pretty affluent suburb, and they all stayed there, and after several hours of listening to talk about telemarketers, mortgage rates, restaurants and the like, I felt insanely homesick for the city, for my own community where that isn't the sort of thing I listen to or talk about. I know I was interjecting things or approaches that were unfamiliar. Lo, by the end of the afternoon, a woman in the group ending up coming out for the first time with a very secret history of abuse from a partner that she had been aching to voice for a long time, apparently, and was very relieved to have done it, and gave me a deep thanks at day's end. That isn't to say it makes my day to hear about someone's suffering, but it is to say that being a little visible sometime can be a help. When a woman ends up hiding something that intense from her closest friends because of a lack of visibility, or address of deeper things on any sort of regular basis, it's pretty destructive.

I may be the wrong person to ask about this: look at what I do for a living and the sheer volume of very personal information I listen to about people I don't know from.

It's just that when these sorts of messages come from strangers, I try my very hardest to tune them out. I don't like being confronted by Jehovah's Witnesses at my metro station, and I tired long ago of the Lyndon Larouche supporters (yes, here in freaking Montreal) who hang out by the doors to the building where I work, so I can respect people who don't want to have to look at "I had an abortion".

The Jehovah's Witnesses and Larouchies are strangers, and when they introduce themselves to me by trying to convince me that they're right (and I've been wrong, presumably), I'll probably try to avoid them from then on, and likely, I'll throw their messages away. I can't be alone on this.

If a friend of mine wanted to talk about her abortion, or race, or sexuality, or whatever, though? I'd be more than happy to listen. Hell, even if she wanted to try and recruit me as a new Witness, I might even listen.

But, I have little use for people who just want to win me over on one issue or another or for that matter, one lifestyle or philosophy or another.

I'm with Dzuun. I'd rather learn about people's politics and beliefs by talking about them, than from a one-liner on a shirt of bumper sticker. Not only do conversations, or well written articles tend to convey much better points than silkscreening does, it allows people to choose to listen, or to avoid things they're not comfortable with. It's probably best to use clothes to convey your love of Megadeth or Nascar, and use more, well, in-depth means to communicate about the deeper stuff.

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

A Jehovah's Witness is soliciting you by coming to your door, by putting pamplets in your hand, with the express purpose of getting you to convert to their religion. Someone wearing clothing and just walking by is hardly doing the same thing. The point of a t-shirt like this isn't to make anyone else want an abortion, but to help others see that not just one "type" of person gets one, that it's not anything to be ashamed of or feel the need to hide. My mother just did something similar at a family gathering last week with a couple uncles who were getting very loudly intolerant about women's issues by pointing out all the women in the room, including herself, who she knew had had abortions. If it was more visible, chances are pretty darn good that more women would feel more ablke to consider their choices, all of them, and that more people who felt permission to be intolerant or violent about other's choices in that regard would have to learn to change their ways.

Hell, I don't dig being confornted with corporate culture every day by what people are wearing and the logo-itis, but you know, that's my issue to deal with, not theirs. They're not soliciting me, they're expressing themselves in a pretty benign way, whatever the message. "I had an abortion" doesn't say "So should you," or "Oh, please forgive me." It just says what it says. Before I'm about to get my knickers in a twist about a t-shirt intended for something important and productive, I'd have to spend an awful lot of time dealing how much outright misogyny, racism and classism -- intended to do no good whatsoever -- is in a whole lot of clothing on the street.

Again, my take on this sort of issue may not mesh well with that of others. I don't actually think it's a good idea to work to shield people from discomfort with these sorts of issues, because I feel pretty strongly that that creates a lot of apathy which I feel is destructive. If someone is upset by ANY reproductive choice, seems to me it's not my issue, it's theirs to deal with.

And heck, any number of things any of us do as anyone else does could inspire wrath or discomfort. I've heard similar arguments for why I shouldn't hold my girlfriend's hand or give her a warm kiss in public. For why I should wear a brassiere or shave my armpits or watch the length of my skirt or the cut of my blouse. For how I should perhaps keep my voice down when I talk about what I do for a living, or watch who I talk about it to at all. So, what's the difference between a t-shirt stating a reproductive choice and those things?

Those are all also very important messages to the people who believe them, but it doesn't mean they're appropriately communicated in such a way.

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

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Originally posted by Dzuunmod:
I can respect people who don't want to have to look at "I had an abortion".

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'I Think Abortion Is A Sin' or 'Jesus Is The Way', or 'I'm TOTALLY Voting For Bush' or one of those 'Marriage Is Between A Man And A Woman'

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Again, though, the issue is that what you've stated here is a VERY different presentation.

In other words, if you want an equal analogy, for "I think abortion is a sin," it would instead have to be "I had a baby," or "I have never become pregnant." The Jesus one... maybe "Jesus is my way." I'm totally voting for Bush...okay, don't see the issue there or the inequity. The last would instead, to again be on the same par with "I had an abortion," simply read "My marriage is between a man and a woman."

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

I'm just saying that from my perspective, the shirts don't work. And Miz S., if you think that these shirts aren't trying to advance the pro-choice agenda (I only say that because it's true - I'm pro-choice, but everyone's got an agenda), you're being naive. It's political advertising. I'm sorry, that's what it is. And I can understand people for wanting to get away from political advertising.

I find it very hard to believe that any woman who regrets that she had an abortion would wear such a shirt. I don't know how you couldn't think so, too.

It'd be like me, voting for George W. Bush, and then changing my mind and hating him, and then wearing a shirt that said "I voted for Bush". Wouldn't make much sense, would it?

Because for very few women is it that simple. I know even for the discussion at hand I mentioned my mother had with my uncles, for example, that she really feels neither of those things, and that her stating vocally that she did was by no means just to support a pro-choice agenda (it was actually in the context of talking about male perspectives on chemical birth control).

Nor is making the choice to abort and having made that choice and being visible with it as simple as advancing a pro-choice agenda. Might be for some, might not be for plenty of others. No way of telling without asking the person making their choice visible, is it? How many Vietnam war veterans make that visible, even if they were drafted, not because they supported that war, but because that event was in some way pivotal or symbolic for them, or because they want visibility as being a veteran?

I wouldn't really deign to assign anyone besides myself ANY set of motives for wearing a shirt like this or for making their abortion visible without hearing the why from them, so I think I'm neither guilty of naivete here (but boy, it might sure be nice at this point in my life to even think I even could be about much) nor of any assumptions.

I'm not going to argue the point much further with you because ultimately, comparing a reproductive choice to a choice of who to vote for and the like just really isn't comprable in my book, especially when we're talking about fostering visibility, reducing shame, taking the secercy out of ANY reproductive choice and any number of other complex issues when it comes to women, reproduction and abortion.

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Originally posted by Milke:
I don't think anyone's said that women shouldn't be able to wear these shirts, but that we don't think it's the best way to make the point.

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Heather,

In other words, even someone saying "X experience is always profound," is both presumptuous and patronizing

I really don't mean it to come across this way, and i'm sorry if you took it that way. I don't take 'profound' to be negative ... However, i do believe that deciding whether or not to have an abortion carries more weight than, say, deciding whether you want to have coffee or tea this morning. Good or bad, it was something you'd have to (hopefully) make an education decision about, and probably not overnight. And the 'profoundness' doesn't necessarly have to fall with the choice to have an abortion, but with being pregnant when you dont want to be. I've seen a few friends choose abortion, and none of them had an easy time (coffee or tea?) making this decision. So maybe it isn't a huge deal to everyone who goes through with it, but it is to some, whether they regret their decision or not.

Even if we are talking about an experience that was profound, how does stating the experience was had, audibly or visibly, make it any less important? How it keeping it secret somehow doing the opposite?

Chances are high that someone telling me verbally that they had an abortion is someone that i know on some level. I don't particularly care if a stranger had an abortion or not (other than "You're pro choice? Cool. Me too" ... I highly doubt anyone pro life would wear such a T shirt, but i could be wrong. Doesn't make sense to me why they would.)

...the older I get, the less and less like you don't have time to care about people you don't know in one respect, I really don't in this one, if you can follow.

So on one hand you don't care what people wear or what messages strangers are trying to get across, but on the other hand, you think others should care about what kind of message these T shirts send, stranger or not (From your first post in this thread "how does stating the experience was had, audibly or visibly, make it any less important? How it keeping it secret somehow doing the opposite?" ... It's different b/c you may very well see a stranger this T shirt). I'm confused.

In other words, if you want an equal analogy, for "I think abortion is a sin," it would instead have to be "I had a baby," or "I have never become pregnant."

And there's an equal analogy for "I had an abortion". What's wrong with "I am pro-choice". Or "I fight for my right to choose" or something. Whats the difference? The shock factor (as you'd get with "I think abortion is a sin" ... Why is that wrong and this okay?). Much less effective if you do'nt shock the crap out of people and give them something to talk about. And that's fine too. How else do you get the message across? But don't pretend it isn't intended to shock. It absolutely is.

... when we're talking about fostering visibility, reducing shame, taking the secercy out of ANY reproductive choice and any number of other complex issues when it comes to women, reproduction and abortion.

Again, i'm not against the idea of these T shirts b/c they're fostering visibility and reducing shame. I think its a very important cause, but i think there are better ways to go about achieving these goals.

Milke,

As possible as it is for these shirts to inspire awareness, conversation, and feelings of solidarity, I think that, practically, they're a lot more likely to inpsire wrath, irritation, and general harassment. And the scary thing is, if you choose to wear a shirt like this, you're as much asking for the second set of reactions as the first, and upsetting people doesn't tend to make any positive points.

Exactly. I hadn't given too much thought to that at first, but i agree.

I don't think anyone's said that women shouldn't be able to wear these shirts, but that we don't think it's the best way to make the point.

Right. I never said anyone shouldn't be allowed to buy/wear these shirts. Buy 'em, wear 'em, i don't care ... But i'm not listening. Your message is lost on me b/c of how you choose to express it.

(If this is going to become a conversation where only those who have personal experience have a valid opinion, i'll step out now. I've never had an abortion ... I've never been pregnant, so I've never had to choose, but i don't really think my opinions on a T shirt have anything to do with that.)

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Originally posted by LilBlueSmurf:

Right. I never said anyone shouldn't be allowed to buy/wear these shirts. Buy 'em, wear 'em, i don't care ... But i'm not listening. Your message is lost on me b/c of how you choose to express it.

(If this is going to become a conversation where only those who have personal experience have a valid opinion, i'll step out now. I've never had an abortion ... I've never been pregnant, so I've never had to choose, but i don't really think my opinions on a T shirt have anything to do with that.)

[This message has been edited by LilBlueSmurf (edited 08-15-2004).]

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I don't think that Heather was saying that only people who have had abortions should take part in this discussion. I think she was referring to the way in which people who haven't had abortions will often over-simplify and assign motives to women who have had them- and specifically regarding this discussion, assigning motives to women who would choose to wear the "I had an abortion" T-shirt (Heather, if you're reading this and I've got it wrong, please let me know and I'll edit this post and say as much).

While I have never had an abortion, I personally feel that it is short-sighted to assume that there is only one point, only one uniform circumstance in which this T-shirt will be worn or bought, and only one message that that any woman who wears it will be trying to convey to all people. Following on from this, assuming that there is in fact a huge variety of circumstances under which these shirts are bought and worn, I'm not sure why your own individual choice to ignore the wearers of these T-shirts is grounds for arguing that the shirts should not be worn or do not make any worthwhile point, at any time.

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Originally posted by Beppie:
I think she was referring to the way in which people who haven't had abortions will often over-simplify and assign motives to women who have had them...

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And I'll remember that the next time I see someone pontificate about why people join the military...

A person certainly has the right to wear whatever T-shirt they want, much as they have the right to seek out an have an abortion if they find it necessary. But both actions have reactions. It's Newtonian.

The "blowback theory" stipulates that the harder you push, the harder your opponent will push back (unless you kill that person). If you are going to go out with a t-shirt that talks about how you had an abortion, you can certainly expect unsupportive folks to voice their opinions, and to do so perhaps in ways that are just as shocking as the message your t-shirt is trying to send. It's the same way with the anti-abortion folk who come around with displayes of human fetuses and whatnot. They are often faced with pro-choice folk who carry signs announcing how many abortions they have had, etc. You push one way, your opponent pushes back just as hard.

If you ask me, the last thing the world needs now is more politics. Everything these days is politicized. "I'm white," "I'm brown," "I'm straight," "I'm gay," "I'm voting for Kerry," "I served in the military," and on and on it goes. Honestly, who cares? Are we really so self-absorbed to believe that others give a rat's hind quarters what sorts of tribulations we've gone through? Are we really so self-absorbed that we feel the compulsive need to put such things on a t-shirt?

I mean hell, I could put a shirt on that read "I Took A Whizz This Morning," and it would be true. But I certainly don't think it would hold any meaning, or be something anyone cared about, or should righteously care about.

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BruinDan, "Code Four, Baby," PHOM

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I'm not sure why your own individual choice to ignore the wearers of these T-shirts is grounds for arguing that the shirts should not be worn or do not make any worthwhile point, at any time.

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Actually, it seems you've credited me with multiple ideas and points I didn't say. I'm not sure how to clarify my postion much more than I have, but I will say, quite simply, that freedom of choice doesn't just mean freedom of choices you agree with, or freedom to express only those ideas you like. My being pro-abortion does not obligate me to like these t-shirts anymore than me posting on this site obligates me to think the same way the majority of posters do.

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

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Originally posted by Milke:
Actually, it seems you've credited me with multiple ideas and points I didn't say. I'm not sure how to clarify my postion much more than I have, but I will say, quite simply, that freedom of choice doesn't just mean freedom of choices you agree with, or freedom to express only those ideas you like. My being pro-abortion does not obligate me to like these t-shirts anymore than me posting on this site obligates me to think the same way the majority of posters do.

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Well, I was not responding only to you in that last post. However, you did say that T-shirts were not the best way of making "the point" which did imply to me that you only saw one point being made by anyone's choice to wear one of these shirts. I am sorry if I implied myself that I felt you should be obliged to like these shirts. My point simply is that even if you or other posters personally dislike these shirts, viewing them in only one way, and viewing the motives of women who wear them in only one way diminishes the power of choice for the women who wear them. It's like being pro-choice (and I am not here making a statement about anyone's beliefs on abortion itself- just an analogy), but saying "you can choose to either have an abortion and regret it, or choose not to and not regret it"-- it simply ignores all the other options that are available, in favour of presenting two options that are way over-simplified.

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Much less effective if you do'nt shock the crap out of people and give them something to talk about.

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Given the 1 in 3 statistic, it can't be that shocking for anyone to find out that a given woman has had an abortion.

The t-shirts are only shocking because of the assumption that it's something that should be hidden and kept private.

I've seen T-shirts that refer to the wearer's sexual orientation, ethnic background, disability, family status - this really doesn't seem to be inherently any more private than other facts about themselves which people happily wear on T-shirts.

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I think that, practically, they're a lot more likely to inpsire wrath, irritation, and general harassment. And the scary thing is, if you choose to wear a shirt like this, you're as much asking for the second set of reactions as the first, and upsetting people doesn't tend to make any positive points.

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I'm saying the shirts primarily have a political purpose, sure, but not that every woman who wears one is wearing it for that purpose, necessarily. Because you're all right, I'm sure that's not the case.

But how are the shirts - and the people who wear them - going to be perceived? That's what I'm getting at. To my mind, unless you want to be provocative, funny or get noticed, there's no reason to wear a shirt with a message on it.

Recently, Hanne came out in a public space saying clearly and plainly that she was a survivor of sexual abuse, because she had a friend be very, very violently raped who was having a hard time with feeling alone, feeling like a victim. Hanne also asked, in a public space, for others that day to do same. She had SO many people who were aching to "come out" in that regard she practically blew her bandwidth.

The point isn't how something like that is perceived, really. The primary point likely is that it allows the wearer some relief from feeling the need to hide a big experience, to hide something that they do not WANT to be secret but are often socially mandated to keep secret. It's for a change not having to worry, 24/7 about how that might be perceived, which is often a constant for many, many women.

(And thus, why a t-shirt or button that says, "I am a survivor of sexual violence," or "I was raped," is not the same at all as one which says "Stop rape," or "One on every four women will be raped in her lifetime.")

Those social mandates in this same vein for women who have aborted are not the same had any woman made a different reproductive choice. After all, women who are mothers or who are pregnant very, very often are incredibly public about that, and few people make that political nor assign it political motives.

So yes, "getting noticed" I suppose could be another way of seeing being visible, rather than invisible.

How might they be percieved? Well, the same way my holding my grilfriend's hand in the street might be percieved, I suppose. The same way you wearing your hair long might be, the same way my being very out with my extended family about what I do for my living is. Some people may be supportive, some may not be. It may make some people feel very good, it may make others feel differently. The same way the mere fact that X person DID have an abortion, is a person who had an abortion, might be perceived. And unfortunately, in our culture, it's still somewhat rare for people to have to think about the fact that abortion isn't as much political as it is personal, especially for the person who has had that abortion. The way I see it, it's not a political statement per se, it's quite the opposite, bringing something constantly politicized BACK to the personal. One of the things we know about bias is that invisibility, lack of exposure to the personal, tends to foster it incredibly. And often, as a woman who has had an abortion in this culture, you become something other than a woman who has had an abortion, because it is made into everything other than a personal experience for you (oftenby a group of people who are overwhelmingly of a gender who cannot even make a reproductive choice themselves, no less), and that feeling can be pretty awful for many people.

Coming back to the example of Vietnam Vets, I know plenty who were not happy at all to have gone to war, who didn't support that war itself, but who when they came home, were horribly hurt that some legs of anti-war protestors made THEM into the war, into the political decisions behind it, again, making something which was for them, personal, only political. Some of the reason some of those Vets like to be visible as being vets is to remind people that they are people, not politics, that this thing affected them, they were a part of it, but the whole works isn't them and they are more than a political choice, a slogan, or the one-dimensional personas they are made into because of politics.

So, in terms of fostering visibility, in terms of trying to bring it back to the personal, will it be effective? Might be with some people, others just may not care, others still may get more angry. It's hard to say, and yes, it would likely matter where it was worn and in what context. But constant invisiblity on a personal level has been the norm for some time now, and that isn't working either, and I'm talking JUST on a personal level alone for many people, not in terms of promoting and upholding the right to choice.

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Originally posted by LilBlueSmurf:
Chances are high that someone telling me verbally that they had an abortion is someone that i know on some level. I don't particularly care if a stranger had an abortion or not (other than "You're pro choice? Cool. Me too" ... I highly doubt anyone pro life would wear such a T shirt, but i could be wrong. Doesn't make sense to me why they would.)

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Perhaps because for them it was a large experience that affected them greatly. Again, much in the same way that someone might wear a button that syas "I was raped." Visibility for an experience, as someone who has been through something isn't just about feeling good about it or about any one set of feelings.

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...the older I get, the less and less like you don't have time to care about people you don't know in one respect, I really don't in this one, if you can follow.

So on one hand you don't care what people wear or what messages strangers are trying to get across, but on the other hand, you think others should care about what kind of message these T shirts send, stranger or not (From your first post in this thread "how does stating the experience was had, audibly or visibly, make it any less important? How it keeping it secret somehow doing the opposite?" ... It's different b/c you may very well see a stranger this T shirt). I'm confused.

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My beef isn't with if anyone cares, per se, it's with motives being assigned out of simple assumptions, and with people feeling they must be invisible sheerly for the comfort of others, not because they would otherwise be trying to make them uncomfortable, but because of the skewed way abortion is often viewed. It's about the fact that -- and more and more the older I get -- it is tiresome to have to hide perfectly valid and common experiences I and many other women have had because of someone else's feelings about them or willingness to accept that they happen.

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In other words, if you want an equal analogy, for "I think abortion is a sin," it would instead have to be "I had a baby," or "I have never become pregnant."

And there's an equal analogy for "I had an abortion". What's wrong with "I am pro-choice". Or "I fight for my right to choose" or something. Whats the difference? The shock factor (as you'd get with "I think abortion is a sin" ... Why is that wrong and this okay?). Much less effective if you do'nt shock the crap out of people and give them something to talk about. And that's fine too. How else do you get the message across? But don't pretend it isn't intended to shock. It absolutely is.

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Again, I explained some of this in my last post. Talk to Jennifer Baumgardner. Ask her if she designed it intended to shock, because I can practically guarantee you that was absolutely not her intent, nor would it be mine if I was wearing it. Again, what my motives would be don't mean those would be the motives of others, but in my case, were I to wear it, the intent would be to humanize something which is often dehumanized very intentionally, and not just by one side of the political fence on abortion, either.

And again, you're assuming "I had an abortion" is equal to "I am pro-choice" and I think you're missing the point, because it isn't. You also seem to be equating "I think abortion is a sin" with "I had an abortion," which is a false anaology. One is a judgment on others actions, the other is a statement of one's own actions. But I'm not going to say one is okay and the other isn't, really, just that they are very much not the same. Heck, I see the first plastered on billboards everywhere I go. I've seen it on t-shirts already. Isn't like I don't know some people think that (and it isn't even as if, plenty of people who think that don't still HAVE abortions, no less.)

(It's likely also worth saying that I live in an urban area which is pretty progressive. So, context may be key here: in an area where people, for whatever bizarre reason, are shocked by the fact that women have abortions, wearing it might be to incite shock, who knows. But I can assure you few people would be shocked if I wore something like that here, and I'd be pretty unwilling to live anywhere where that was shocking, again, bringing it back to the issue of the great discomofort invisibility can create.)

- Very few abortion centers are labeled "abortion center." Most, if they have a sign at all, are called something like "women's aid clinic," or "center for reproductive services," and so forth. They're often hidden in the bowels of office buildings. You generally have to go through about as much security as one would visiting a family member in jail. (Which is only because of clinic violence.)

- Like most surgery centers, abortion clinics tend to be very pristine, sanitized places. The walls are white, etc. It smells like a hospital.

- In many ways, something so personal is a very IMpersonal experience. You usually go in groups at set times. You file a lot of paperwork. You're rarely called by your first name. You rarely interact with others in the clinic.

- At many clinics, despite the attempt at making them less obvious, you encounter protestors, some of which will yell and shout out things about as untrue and nasty as you can imagine. Some are physically aggressive.

- Many women who go to get abortions go alone and don't tell others they are having an abortion or have recently had one. Due to finances, counseling is often unavailable for those who want or need it afterwards. Many women NEVER tell anyone else they have aborted. My mother telling her family about an abortion she had over two decades ago was news to almost EVERYONE, for example, even though they're incredibly close in that family. I fully expect some members of her family will now never treat her the same way again. That's pretty typical, and again, the same tends not to be true with other reproductive choices. The majority of people, in other words, many women who abort divulge abortion to or have with them during and after the process are strangers to them, who they will never see again.

- Reproduction of any sort tends to be a very big deal for women. Women who have become pregnant, who are going to give birth often cannot stop talking about it for the life of them -- before, during and after -- and while some folks may get bored, very few people suggest, overtly or covertly, that they should not talk about it. The same very much is not true both with women who have aborted or put a child up for adoption. The latter is more acceptable to discuss, however, as is miscarriage.

And I think you're missing a big part of why someone comes out publicly with anything like this, be it about being queer, about having an abortion, about having survived rape. It's not on the same level with, as you said, a t-shirt stating you urinated this morning.

The more people who are publicly out, the greater agency that gives others to feel they can consider doing so too. Living any part of one's life in secrecy really, really bloody sucks, especially when it's something that is in any way pivotal, or is normal and valid, and yet not culturally supported or there is valid fear in being "out" because of inciting everything from lack of inclusion to verbal harassment to physical violence. If it was a simple issue of no one caring, we wouldn't be hearing such strong opinions about why not to wear this, would we? Or would be hearing the same objection to t-shirts that said "#1 Mom." We don't. Fancy that.

Self-absorption isn't really an issue with something which is about far more than self, but about other millions of people in a similar spot: millions of people who are marginalized or silenced for it on a personal, not political, level. Being out with something difficult not only enables that individual comfort and freedom in living their life, but gives permission to others to do same.

(It's possibly worth saying that in marginalized groups, this sort of thing becomes even more important, and the more marginilization you add on, often the more important it is. For instance, for a queer woman of color to be able to publicly say or show she has had an abortion could be something very powerful.)

quote:

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Originally posted by Miz Scarlet:
It's not on the same level with, as you said, a t-shirt stating you urinated this morning.

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How about "My Mom Died." Would that be more on par? Would that be a message worth wearing on a t-shirt? It's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is something that needs to be advertised across my chest in order to bring together all those who have suffered the same loss.

And really, there seems to be some weird dichotomy with abortion. We want the choice to be available, and we want it not to be a big issue...and yet we want to parade around in t-shirts in some sort of attempt to make that happen? It seems counterproductive at best. If one wants it to remain the big deal that it is now, with polarizing opinions and arguments in subway stations, the t-shirt would seem a great way to accomplish that goal. If one wants it to be a choice that doesn't need to draw the same public ire, perhaps relegating it in the same bin as the "I Urinated This Morning" shirt idea would be a better plan. You really can't have it both ways, no matter how marginalized you are.

Same goes for the "queer woman of color" example. It seems to undermine the notion that we're all the same at heart, that we're all people living our lives. Do we want a colorblind society? Or do we want to perpetuate the same sorts of things that Martin Luther King was pointing out with great disdain during our parents' generation? To imply that there is some sort of inherent positive bent on having someone "of color" or "queer" make a point, as opposed to a more average "straight" or "white" person, seems no better than the sorts of things that white segregationists said in 1963 Birmingham. Seems to me that if we are really trying to normalize things like, say, reproductive choice or non-heterosexuality for example, we ought not be playing them up as some sort of massive issue, as some sort of t-shirt slogan used to shock others. We ought to be integrating them into our collective human experience, recognizing that it all makes up the patchwork of our existence, and accepting them as they come.

Because in the grand scheme, whether someone is gay or straight, or whether someone has or has not had an abortion does not somehow make that person better or worse. I have serious problems when members of the Religious Right try to state the latter, and I don't think it is any more appropriate when folks on the Left attempt to claim the former.

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BruinDan, "Mister Nine-Eighteen," PHOM

Sure, "My mom died" might be closer to it, but it's missing an integral part of this issue which is that it is okay to have had a Mom who died. You can tell others your Mom died without them thinking you a lesser person for it. It is not okay, with many people, to have had an abortion, despite the fact that it is both legal, and has as long a history as childbirth or birth control.

And again, I hear you assigning motives for wearing such a shirt that are about avilibility of choice when that may not be the motive of the wearer at all. I heart you saying there is a 'goal," despite several of us stating clearly just here that assuming one goal, even for a few of us, is fallacious. If my goal was to keep choice viable, and I wanted to wear a t-shirt to assert that, I'd be wearing one about choice or about the detriments of having abortion be illegal, not one about my own experience with abortion, IMO.

Whatever a person's ideals or goals may be, we're not all the same, and our experiences haven't all been the same, not by any stretch. It has zippo to do with better or worse, or zippo to do with goals, it's about the realities right now. Right now, it is laregly unacceptable, in many areans, and carries risks and detriments, for a woman who has had an abortion to be publicly out about having had one, period. That is the primary issue being addressed with something like this, whether or not the way it is being addressed is or is not flawed or lacking.

In fact, all of what I'm hearing you say here, Dan, is dismissing all of what has been said by myself, logic, jane or beppie in terms of why any of us *might* wear something like this, and going back to what you feel others might be wearing it for, or what others goals might be, when you've got a few of us right here saying what ours actually are.

Martin Luther King hardly denied that blacks at the time he was working were marginalized, nor did he deny what they suffered. And heck if I know where you're getting the postive or negative bents stuff from, because all I've heard here in support of this sort of idea isn't about that at all, nor has it attached any such things.

quote:

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Originally posted by Miz Scarlet:
And heck if I know where you're getting the postive or negative bents stuff from, because all I've heard here in support of this sort of idea isn't about that at all, nor has it attached any such things.

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I got it from the post I quoted above, namely this part:

quote:

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(It's possibly worth saying that in marginalized groups, this sort of thing becomes even more important, and the more marginilization you add on, often the more important it is. For instance, for a queer woman of color to be able to publicly say or show she has had an abortion could be something very powerful.)

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That is where the "bent" comes from, it seems to be some inherent belief that the statement somehow carries more weight depending on who is doing the talking. I tend to find that sort of thing unnecessarily divisive.

In fact, all of what I'm hearing you say here, Dan, is dismissing all of what has been said by myself, logic, jane or beppie in terms of why any of us *might* wear something like this, and going back to what you feel others might be wearing it for, or what others goals might be, when you've got a few of us right here saying what ours actually are.

No, what I am doing is discussing the difference between perception and intent. Surely nobody can gauge for certain someone else's intent just by looking at them, but people can, and will, perceive intent whenever possible. Nowhere is this more blatant than when someone dons some sort of message on their person. Once that happens, it becomes less a matter of motive, and more a matter of how it is received by an audience. And to an audience that may not be seeking out such information, it is going to come across as shocking. Which, while perhaps not the express intent of the wearer, certainly cannot be wholly ignored as the intent of the designer.

Assinging folks a political affiliaton (as you've said, for those "on the left") based on whether they're queer, of color, or have had an abortion -- or if they want any of those things visible -- is so simplistic and one dimensional, I don't even know where to file it.

We often see posts right here on these boards that broadstroke "The Right," or "conservatives," and of course they are just as much a generalization as my post was. But that seems to be splitting hairs amidst a point that lies within...that members of any political faction believing that someone is made better, worse, or more important as a public speaker (as you seemed to imply in the above-quoted paragraph) by virtue of whether or not they've had an abortion, by the color of their skin, or by what type of person they are attracted to, is ludicrous at worst, and unhelpful at best.

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BruinDan, "Mister Nine-Eighteen," PHOM

quote:

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But that seems to be splitting hairs amidst a point that lies within...that members of any political faction believing that someone is made better, worse, or more important as a public speaker (as you seemed to imply in the above-quoted paragraph) by virtue of whether or not they've had an abortion, by the color of their skin, or by what type of person they are attracted to, is ludicrous at worst, and unhelpful at best.

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If what they're talking about is the experience, wants and/or needs AS someone who has had an abortion, AS a person of color, or AS someone of a given orientation, you bet your tucas their words on those things are more valuable than someone who is not or has not been in those positions.

I know that if someone didn't walk me out of the room for coming into say, a military conference to talk about what soldiers need or what they feel during or after wartime -- as someone who has never been a soldier, and the child of a draft resiter no less -- I'd think they were being pretty darn lax.

quote:

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Originally posted by 00goddess:
I think you, and the people to whom you refer, are missing a big point: that you, and they, don't have to look at anything.

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HOWEVER.

Again, without attaching any of what is or isn't okay to myself or anyone else to this, you're making comparisons that aren't cogent. Someone who has had an abortion wearing a t-shirt that says they have -- and saying nothing else -- is voicing an authentic experience with NO judgment, no interpretation of the event and can even do so with no political agenda or any intent to make others make a different choice than they would for themselves.

Someone holding up those placards often is not only holding up photos of things which are NOT authentic (most of those "photos" are actually of stillborn babies, of fetuses that had to be aborted after the normal time-frame of elective abortion for health reasons, etc.), they usually do so ONLY at centers intended for abortion for those who have chosen it for themselves, and the majority of people holding those placards have not only never had an abortion, they even aren't biologically capable of having one or making that reproductive choice themselves. As someone with experience for those holding those sorts of placards, the holding up of a placard (even at an abortion clinic and often ONLY at one or rallies supporting feminism or choice) silently, pretty much never happens. Those plcards rarely sayon them "This is a seven-month-old fetus." (Though it's not uncommon for a photo of a seven-month-old fetus to dishonestly say, "This is what you're aborting." at a clinic which only offers first-trimester abortions.) It is very much NOT someone walking by in a t-shirt stating only their own experience and nothing else, even if the message WAS comprable.

quote:

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Originally posted by Miz Scarlet:
I could go on, but again, things are being compared here which quite simply are not comprable.

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To you, in your opinion.

But, then again, i've never had to choose, and Dzuun and Danny won't ever have to choose either. I'm sorry this makes our opinions less valid to you.

But that's all they are ... opinions. You can state yours and i can state mine. Sure, experience counts, but i feel like the opinions of those who haven't/can't choose are being brushed aside on that fact alone. And that's not right.

quote:

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. . . (oftenby a group of people who are overwhelmingly of a gender who cannot even make a reproductive choice themselves, no less), . . .

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Having an abortion is not the only reproductive choice one can make. Having a baby is a reproductive choice. Using a reliable form of birth control is a reproductive choice. Any time anyone of any sex or gender chooses to have coitus, or chooses not to have coitus, that's a reproductive choice. If only women could make reproductive choice, a lot of this board wouldn't exist -- and then again neither would a lot of people.

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

(Per Milke and Hollie's posts, sorry, but I think you're both off course here. The choice whether or not to use birth control or have sex or parent is not the same as those with what to do when your own body is pregnant. Would that it were, and would that it were equal: all of this would be a lot less loaded. And no, it isn't opinion that those two very, very different statements are not analagous is not merely opinion. Different statements and different intentions carry different meanings and different intenstions, without any interpretation at all. I'm sorry, but that's some pretty silly hyperbole, just like saying that an anti-war activist with a placard with photos of death camps in World War II at an anti-Vietnam rally with the words "Out of Vietnam!" or "This is what you did!" would is the same as a drafted Vietnam soldier wearing a button that says "veteran." Come on. That's nothing to do with experience, and everything to do with basic senstence structure and the medium of propaganda: it's academic, not experiental or subjective. Now, if the person wearing the "I had an abortion" t-shirt really hadn't had one, you MIGHT have some leeway there, but I don't believe that instance was being addressed here.)

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

I can say that in my mind, that skydiving and kickboxing seem on the same par to me, but since I've never been skydiving, what I have to say there is pretty limited. And if a skydiver told me I was off base in that, I'd be pretty darn silly to dismiss them out of hand.

My choice was to be very careful about using birth control, and not start a pregnancy. It seemed like the best choice I could make for my body. It doesn't mean I never made decisions about abortion. It means I did all I could to make them never have to become a reality.

All of those options seem very much on a level to me. And you know what? That's valid too. Abortion may seem more profound or life altering to you than any of the other options, but that's not how I feel, nor how anyone else has to feel. And I don't need to have an abortion to affirm my feelings, nor justify them to anyone else.

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA

If you can find that woman who has experienced what you have AND being pregnant, making a choice -- any choice -- about an actual pregnancy and experiencing that choice, and says all those areas of reproductive choices and experiences are on the same level, I'd be pretty surprised, because that would be a pretty darn unusual thing.

No, you don't have to have any actual experience with things you're talking about to justify your feelings about personal hypotheticals, nor do you have to give credence to those who have. But when anyone is going to do that, you also can't expect a whole lot of -- if any -- real credibility with what you're voicing in that regard.

I will say that I have a strong problem with ANYONE at this board discounting the actual experiences of others -- not their own hypotheticals -- when we're talking about any issue here at Scarleteen and yes, not only am I going to counter that when I see it happening (and not just when it includes me), I'm likely to take a stronger hand with that when it's happening with board moderators. If a user came and talked about their experience as a rape survivor, someone who was not such themselves and started talking about how being so might make them feel, or how they would react having no idea how they'd react would not receive a positive recpetion, nor would I be at all keen in letting that happen. If a male user here was talking about how they feel about being circumcised, I'd sincerely hope that if, for whatever reasons, I started talking a blue streak about how I would feel if I were, that someone would give me a strong nudge with the clue stick, to say the least.

So, I'm going to ask that for this thread to continue, it take a turn, and that anyone participating remembers that if we're going to talk about this topic in the vein of what a woman who has had an abortion might want, need or experience, that while I'm ceratainly not going to disallow or invalidate ruminating on what that *might* be, or the as unexperienced things appears, I very much expect the might be's and the hypotheticals to pay some serious heed to the what has truly beens and the actuals.

There are quite a few things I disagree with in this statement, and I will try to avoid being hypothetical about how I would feel if I had had an abortion and wore the shirt because I agree with Miz S that I don't have a clue what that's like.

First off, there is no proof that the wearers of the shirt are trying to create confrontation. I certainly don't know when and where they choose to wear them. And, while it is true, seeing someone walking down the street wearing such a shirt would probably inspire confrontation, it is not necessarily the case that they will go up to someone and say. . . "What do you have to say about this?" Miz S mentioned many times over the issue of silence and the need of many people to be able to express issues, through their own means, that others may consider "taboo" or "inappropriate." This is not meant to be an analogy, but relatively related. . . Sometimes I know I need to express something through my words, the way I dress, or any other form, that other's may not want or like to hear and the point is not even that I want them to pay attention, but THAT I NEED TO SAY IT.

As for strongly offensive. . . there's no evidence that they mean to offend. And even if other's consider it offensive, for those who do use the shirts as a political statement (and I'm sure not all are), sometimes saying something shocking that may offend is a viable way to get people to talk about. Controversy is everywhere, and though it makes people uncomfortable, it can also inspire dialogue. . . along with strong reactions. But sometimes trying to be polite to make a statement (which again, is NOT necessarily the point of the shirt), just doesn't work. I am a very political person and I was raised by an activist. . . I've seen many times over situations in which a comfortable chat results in nothing just because there are often a lot of meaningful, deeper issues that will not be mentioned if there isn't some tension.

I am not even a confrontational person (in fact, I tend to get uncomfortable), but I acknowledge the fact that sometimes at my most uncomfortable I am forced to ask myself why I have such strong opinions. And as for people that shut down entirely, well, there is a great likelihood that even if you sat them down politely there'd be no way to get across your point.

Even aside from all that, I think one of the most beautiful things about what a democracy is supposed to be- and I know there are people that would debate if we even are a democracy, but that's not the issues I want to get into- is that people from all over the spectrum can express themselves in what other people believe to be "inappropriate" manners. So long as no one is physically or emotionally abused by a form of expression, I see no harm in it.

And, in this case, I think it is important that women who choose these shirts as their form of saying something that maybe they've kept silent for a long time have the ability and right to do so. Just because there are people that won't like it, or think it's tactless, does not invalidate the fact that women who have been raped, or had an abortion, or are queer, have been silent for a long time often just because they've been told it would be offensive to be open about it.

quote:

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As for strongly offensive. . . there's no evidence that they mean to offend.

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But that doesn't mean that they won't.

If i'm playing a game of golf or tennis and i'm not playing very well and i start swearing at myself because i'm angry (if you play either of these sports you know this happens not infrequently as i can confirm in my tennis match this morning--don't worry...it wasn't me), i have no intention of offending anyone but myself, but a spectator might find my ranting disruptive, therefore being offensive.

Some people might find this T-shirt to be simplifying abortion, which as we have confirmed is a very complex decision (coffee vs. tea?). As a result, that person might find the shirt to be offensive.

I think anyone buying this shirt should be aware that they could be confronted by people who find it offensive. They may not be saying to themselves when they buy it, "Boy, I hope that someone walks up to me on the street and starts an argument with me" but they should know that it could happen.

Even if you're not using the shirt to make a political statement, you have to understand that people interpret things in different ways, and many people will interpret this as a political statement. Personally, I do. I still haven't decided whether or not i'm pro-choice or pro-life, and honestly i don't think i'm ever going to arrive at a decision completely on one side. I am religious, but i feel there are many times when abortion should be allowed (i.e. after a rape) and that it can prevent many future problems (i.e. when a baby would be born into an unstable or unsafe family environment). Really...in order to solve this issue i feel that more emphasis needs to be placed on sex education (thank you Scarleteen ). I find it hypocritical for the right-wing to be against more modern and better sex education, and then to turn around and be against abortion, and i'm not saying this because i'm liberal or anything (FYI i will be registering with the republican party when i turn 18 in a few months).

The only good i think the T_shirt will accomplish will to make more people open to talking about abortion and to reduce shame that many women who have had an abortion feel. However, I think there are better ways to accomplish these goals than this.

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Eat, drink, and be merry

For tomorrow we die

While it all depends on your view of abortion, and your reason for it, many women do not feel shameful about having an abortion. It is a very, in my opinion, misunderstood and controverisal topic.

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Milke, with an L, Mrs BD to you, RATS, TMNTP, MF, CWCD, WAOTA