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Author Topic: Sorry if this topic has been done to death but..
Kaira
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..I was just having my hair coloured at the hair dressers, and I was reading in Cosmopolitan about the women of Ireland, who can't get abortions. One woman, who made the very difficult decision to go for an abortion (this is in London, England) was faced with anti abortion protesters, who then proceeded to carry "a tiny white coffin" on their shoulders in a 3 person procession in front of her! Now, I'm sorry, I don't think too highly of abortions, I think if you're ready to have sex, you should be ready to deal with the consequences too, with the exception being forced sex. But, I don't think that anyone has the right to make that poor woman feel that way, or to stop another woman having an abortion, no matter what country she lives in. Abortion is a very difficult choice to make for anyone I should imagine. Although I don't altogether support abortions, I do support the fact that everybody has the right to choose. I'm sure women choosing abortions have had, and are having enough emotional turmoil without a procession in front of them with a tiny white coffin on the way in to the center.
Posts: 9 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dude_who_writes
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Good for you, Kaira! It's nice to see that you still retain your opinion but still maintain the fact that everyone should have the right to choose! You deserve to be commended!

I have to say, that it is true that in many countries, particularly those in which the Roman Catholic church has a great deal of control (read: Ireland) abortions, and even things as simple as birth-control methods, are often either illegal, hard to come by, or you are heckled and harassed when you do attempt to purchase and/or receive these types of services and devices. It's ludicrous!

[Edited for clarity and spell-checking.]

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Tim (a.k.a. the dude)
-------------------------
"I am man who has grown from a son
Been crucified by enraged women
I am son who was raised by such men
I'm often reminded of the fools I'm among...
I am a man who still does what he can
to dispel our archaic reputation
I am a man who has heard all he can
Cause I don't fare well with endless punishment..." -- Alanis Morissette ("A Man")

[This message has been edited by Dude_who_writes (edited 12-08-2001).]


Posts: 712 | From: Michigan, US | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kaira
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I'm pretty sure abortion IS illegal in Ireland, but don't quote me on that!

Also, I read a pretty horrible statistic today. 40 million women a year throughout the world will have an abortion. 26 million will have it performed "back street", and 70,000 women will die because of complications recieved through these practises. Of course, that's not counting the endless number of women that will be left unable to have children .

I agree with you about the ludicrousy of those things when you try to buy or get those types of service and devices. Especially the harrasment. That's sad


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sapphirecat
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quote:
Kaira tells us:
Also, I read a pretty horrible statistic today. 40 million women a year throughout the world will have an abortion. 26 million will have it performed "back street", and 70,000 women will die because of complications recieved through these practises.

26/40 = 65% (exactly)

This is not how a "civilized" society is supposed to operate.

An interesting thought: if life begins at the moment of conception, then "life" is defined as a potential to grow. But noting that a zygote can't survive in reality, we see that something can be "alive" without being self-sufficient; in such a case, every ovum is also "alive", and logically, we conclude that every woman is a murderer because a potential child is just flushed down the toilet every time she menstruates. Furthermore, every guy is a mass murderer, killing people on the order of Stalin every time he masturbates. However, since nobody actually suggests this, whether something is alive or dead seems to be a moot point in ethical considerations....

Note: the above paragraph is provided for entertainment. It's not what I believe.

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Sapphire Cat
You can love me or hate me, but it won't change who I am.


Posts: 235 | From: Louisville KY (St. Matthews) | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lynne
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I'm going to disagree regarding the anti-abortion protestors. As long as they aren't harassing women too badly (for protestors, that is; keep in mind that protesting is sort of an innately harassing activity to begin with), I think they should be allowed to express their opinion. (And no, I don't think the little coffin in and of itself counts as horrible harassment. If the procession was literally getting in her way, though, and she had to push through them, that probably would.) If they can come up with a powerful way to do that, such as the little coffin, then more power to them. And if a woman can't deal with the fact that some people disapprove of her actions? Tough. Life's like that. I'd much rather see individuals suffer emotional scratches than see free expression being stifled. Because once people start censoring one sort of protest they find offensive, what's to stop them from censoring other sorts of protests that express unpopular opinions?

(And I'm not saying this because I'm pro-life, either -- I happen to support a woman's ability to choose (though I admit that abortion is a very thorny issue).)

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Daniel
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Does this principle extend to animal-rights actibists, etc. as well? For example if pictures of recently-slaughtered cows were paraded outside a restaurant, would that be acceptable..? I know I wouldn't like it =o
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Lynne
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I'm going to assume Daniel was talkig to me. If not, my apologies, and ignore this.

Yep. It most certainly would. No, pictures of dead animals aren't pleasant, but I think that people should have a right to express their opinions.

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Heather
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Actually, not to drive this off-topic, but out of curiosity as someone who has never been a meat-easter, I'm curious WHY it would be unappetizing or bothersome if you knew what you were eating?

For instance, I do eat fish nowadays, and seeing them in piles caught before they have been served or whatever doesn't trouble me at all. In fact, as someone who eats suhi with some regularity, I often see it prgress from it's just-caught state to my dinner right before my eyes.

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Heather Corinna
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Posts: 68215 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lynne
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Well, I only might find it unpleasant because I don't like to look at icky things while I'm eating. I've no problem with the fact that eating meat means eating a dead animal; I just find, say, cow guts a bit disgusting, and I'm not always comfortable looking at disgusting things while eating anything.
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Lady Moonlight
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Hmmm. I see a difference here. The militant vegetarians waving dead cow bits at me are showing reality, however unpleasant. That once-viable cow is not too many steps removed from the steak on my plate. On the other hand, the anti-choice folks are parading a coffin, when in early-term abortions the tissue aborted (or the fetus, if you will) does not in any way resemble the viable, full-term baby that might be placed in that coffin, say, if it were stillborn. (How's that for a run-on sentence? Sheesh, and I used to be an English teacher!)

One is reality, and the other is symbolic projection. Maybe that's okay, and I suppose they're both valid forms of demonstration, but there's definitely a difference.

In my town (and maybe in the state of Missouri, I don't know), there's an injunction that keeps the anti-choice protestors so many feet away from Planned Parenthood. (Our local PP doesn't even DO abortions, but they protest anyhow.) The way the property is laid out, that pretty much means they have to do their protesting from across the street. That seems a pretty reasonable solution to me. Expressing an opinion is fine; up-close harassing women who are already dealing with the stress of an unwanted pregnancy is not.


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BJadeT
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For me, the whole point of protesting is to give people facts, an then let them make up their own minds. I protest aginst the war, because too many people don't know the whole story. If they know about the plight of the poeple who don't make it onto the news, then it's up to them to decide where they stand. If they don't (and I don't think they would if there wasn't a strong anti-war movement), then I don't see how they can make a decision on where they stand on the issue. (please don't turn this into a big debate on the war-I still respect you if you have good reason to support it). So when I protest, I do it to inform people, not to force people to see things my way.

For the same reason, I would be happy to hand out leaflets on the slaughter and environmental destruction carried out by fast food chains to people entering those fast food chains. If they don't know what they're about to be eating, and what happened to get it onto their plate, then how can they decide? If they do know, and still decide to eat there, that's OK.

So, although I wouldn't go out and join anti-abortion protestors, I think they have a right to show people what is being aborted, even if it is through graphic images that can be quite disturbing. They believe strongly in this, and I feel they have as much right to protest against abortions as I do against wars. Once you take away the right to protest, you take away a vital part of democracy.

Of course, protest can get out of hand. I think if you are physically stopping a person from doing something they want to do, or causing them immense emotional pain through your protest, then you go too far. Maybe the coffin was going too far.

I'd just like to make it clear that I am, to all intents and purposes, pro-choice, although I would never have an abortion myself. But i don't feel I can condem protesters of any kind, because I am one myself, and if you stop one group from protesting it's only a matter of time before you stop others. That's dangerous.


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Pumpkin_Pie
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Right, being an Irish girl very interested in current affairs, let me just tell u about the situation in Ireland. At the moment, abortion is illegal in Ireland, unless the mother's life is in danger(either for physical health reasons or that the mother is suicidal-they're talking about getting rid of the last part). Now, the reality is that 6,000 Irish women travel to England every year to get abortions. There is a referendum coming up soon on abortion, but its choices are

a) we leave the present legal situation

or

b)Abortion is 100% ILLEGAL!!! That means under no circumstances can an abortion be had in the Rep. of Ireland. "A cleverly constructed web of deceit" as one pro-choicer called it.

Now, on to protesting. I have no problem with anti abortion protesting, everyone is entitled to an opinion, what I do have a problem with is youth denfense shoving pictures of mangle fetuses into my 5 and 7 year old cousin's faces, as they did to me when I was a child, and reducing kids to tears. I also would have a makor problem with the little white coffin incident described above. Protesting is one thing, harrasssment and abuse are quite another. These women(well, the vast majority) don't choose abortion because they have to, would you choose to make a lonely journey across the sea if u had another option?


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Pumpkin_Pie
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If anyone saw Legally Blonde, then Sapphire Cats points definitley rang some bells. "Every ejaculation resultiing from masturbation could be termed reckless abandonment"
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$uMMeR
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Wow. What a very fair referendum (I'm with that pro-choicer on that - a cleverly constructed web of deceit).

I don't think harassment for one's beliefs could ever be seen as part of 'democracy'. Protests, yes, they help make up democracy but harassment - that just takes away total freedom of speech.

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Posts: 194 | From: city of Anghelz | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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