posted
Hello, I'm new here, a friend recommended this board before and now seems like the best time to put it to use.
Today I found out my long distance boyfriend for over four years is infact not a boy at all. I'm surprised and awed how she managed to have me fooled for so long, although she does look like a very pretty boy, and her voice is kind of in the middle, she sounds like a masculine female(which she is) or a feminine male.
While I hate she lied to me from the begining, and kept doing it for so many years, I also appreciate she finally told me, after a few years of coaxing because I knew she had a secret, and she said she couldn't tell because it'd break us apart and she didn't want to lose me. I feel that now we can build this relationship on a truly honest, stable base.
But. I don't know if I want to. While I love her for the person she is, I find it a little on the tough side to see her the same way now that she is a girl, rather than a boy. Although, it made for the perfect time to peek out of the closet and tell her that I'm actually not straight as a laser, but sort of bisexual. But while I did take a step out of the closet, I feel like I went into the closet. So far I've been living under the impression I have a straight relationship, and all of a sudden, I don't. I don't know how to tell my parents, or my friends, I know my older sister would condemn me. We figured we won't tell yet, but rather try first if we work as a female couple.
Of course, this raises a lot of insecurities in me, because so far I've been catering out to the needs of a male in all our intimate endevours. I learned she's always faked orgasms-- which isn't that big a deal because as a girl, I know it isn't that important if we peak or not. But at the same time I feel like I'm unable to please her now that I know her needs are a little different from what I'm accustomed to, what with her having certain bodyparts and lacking others. She doesn't really see herself as "into girls" either (but continued in the same breath that she's probably in denial), and I feel every compliment she's ever given me has been fake and untrue to some extent, especially when it comes to intimacy.
I also don't know how this will fare long term, because despite my orientation, I have always been more into boys than girls. I have very traditional aspirations, you know the usual, a house, a husband and a couple of kids. I don't want to lose her, I've loved her very deeply for so many years, but I don't know if I can be in a relationship that likely has no future.
I really don't know what I'm seeking here. I don't necessarily have any questions and know it'd be useless to ask what others would do, because what matters is what I feel I should do. It's probably pointless to ask if this has happened to anyone else before. Probably not. I guess I just wanted to get this out off my system, I can't really talk to anyone about it right now. Not yet. Not until we've had time to see if we can work it out. She preferred that people still think he was a boy just in case we'd have to split, as she didn't want to put me in an awkward position.
edit: OH RIGHT. This is by no means meant to scare anyone off of an internet relationship or a long distance relationship or anything like that! This is just my personal story of what happened to me, and I seriously don't think it's common. And.. uh. Love conquers all?
posted
Cian, before I answer, there's a piece of this I'm missing I need to know how to answer.
Does this person identify as male or female? In other words, are you dealing with someone who IDs as female, but who is simply very androgynous or butch, or with someone who is - or feels they may be -- transgender and either identifies as male, or who feels they would like to identify as male?
(By the way? This most certainly has happened to others before, both in person and -- all the more so -- online. One of the trickiest parts of online relationships is that it is very easy for people to represent themselves differently, even radically so, than they are, especially if a relationship goes on for such a long time like this without an in-person meeting. And if it helps you feel better, at the start of Scarleteen, we had an issue just like this with a staff member, and it went on for a good deal of time, even with all of our openness around gender and all of our awareness.)
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me S.E.X: Get my book! Knowledge is power. Information is power. The secreting or hoarding of knowledge or information may be an act of tyranny camouflaged as humility. - Robin Morgan Posts: 39809 | From: Seattle | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
Well, she said that she doesn't really think about gender a lot and she's always been a tomboy. But she acknowledges she's quite female in every aspect and is currently trying to come to terms with the fact that she's into girls. Something she's basically known all her life, but been denying. And she is very androgynous, hence why she had me fooled for so long.
She told me she sometimes wishes she were a guy and would have the male parts, even if it was just for me. And she also said that she could get a sex-change operation if I wanted her to-- and I strictly forbade her to ever do something like that for anyone else but herself. I'll much rather get used to having my bisexual closet door ajar than have her do something major like that. .. and yeah, I'm having mild problems trying to adjust being attracted to her physically now that she's.. well, a she. But I hope it'll ease with time.
Posts: 9 | From: Disclosed | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Cian: Of course, this raises a lot of insecurities in me, because so far I've been catering out to the needs of a male in all our intimate endevours. I learned she's always faked orgasms-- which isn't that big a deal because as a girl, I know it isn't that important if we peak or not.
Hey Cian, Welcome to Scarleteen! Heather is asking a lot of important questions and will be able to give you some excellent insight, but I did want to talk about this one point for a second. While partnered sex isn't *just* about orgasms (they carry different amounts of importance for different individuals), but there is truly no double-standard for orgasms. Here orgasms are of equal importance to men/women/transgendered folk, and I find that statement very troubling. Not because it's bad that you said it -- please feel free and safe to express yourself as long as it's done in a respectful manner -- but because I see a lot of built-up stuff about gender roles and expectations there.
Because I can't quite tell from you post, have you met in-person and been sexually active together in-person?
-------------------- ~Lena Posts: 2548 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
While you say she says she doesn't really think about gender a lot, it's sounding like she (I'm going to use she for the time being) actually has. As well, someone expressing that they wish they were a different sex or gender and talking about sexual reassignment surgery -- as well as telling you she was male for this long -- certainly suggests we're talking about someone who seems to pretty clearly have some gender issues afoot.
This might also be why coming to terms with being into girls has been tough for her: if she thinks of herself as male, then it's going to feel weird to ID as lesbian. See what I mean?
Ultimately, I think there are two big issues to deal with here:
1) The longtime dishonesty. That really may be the biggest issue of all, because that is a very long time to be deceptive with someone you are purportedly getting close to. Any trust you built is likely in serious question. How are you feeling about that?
2) The fact that either way, you're not dealing with -- gender-wise -- you you thought you were: a male-bodied person. You are either dealing with a female-bodied person who identifies as female, or a currently female-bodied person who may now be transgender male and/or later transition physically and emotionally into a transgender male. How do you feel about that, as well as the issues of trust?
I should also add that one thing to understand is that if this person is trans, or does prefer to ID as male (or would, if she felt able to), the way you were relating to this person may have, in fact, felt far more authentic than were you relating to her as someone female. Mind, in many ways, it's not really like we need to relate to different genders differently in a very broad way, save when talking about specific body parts or what have you. But it may be that YOU relate very differently to men and women.
Lastly, I also want to be sure you're taking care of you, and feel able to take any space you need away from this relationship to process BOTH the breach of trust and the gender difference. Is this person being understanding about that and giving you the room and space you need for that? Are you giving that to yourself?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me S.E.X: Get my book! Knowledge is power. Information is power. The secreting or hoarding of knowledge or information may be an act of tyranny camouflaged as humility. - Robin Morgan Posts: 39809 | From: Seattle | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
I definitely want to clarify that I'm basically quoting what she said to me because I was very upset to learn she has never had an orgasm, not with me nor without me, she said she doesn't mind because she's satisfied regardless. We have not met face to face-- we plan to next summer, even if the relationship falls through. Our intimacy has been bound to what we can do over the internet. (This is very embarrassing for me to talk about, please excuse me) And of course we know sex isn't only about orgasms. We first discussed this when she.. while still being a he to me, was really pressing me to make sure I orgasm, to the point I felt like I'd let "him" down if I didn't. We've since worked that out. Of course her pleasure means a lot to me, and I would love nothing more than to be able to please her to that point, but I'm just not going to grill her about it because I don't want her to think her not-orgasming is an impairment.
I don't know if I bring myself across clearly enough. When I say that as a girl I can say it's not that important-- I just speak from my personal experience and hers. I don't mind if I don't peak, she doesn't mind if she doesn't, thus it isn't very important to us.
Hi again, Heather.
I told her that she'll have to forgive me if I doubt her from now on, and she said she'd fully understand if I never trusted her again. However, I want to trust her, and I want to work out this knot. Sure, it means heavy duty talking and reinforcing what trust is left. I want to try.
I'm still coming to terms with how I feel about her being.. well, a her. We haven't had all that much time to grasp this and talk about it yet, but I get the vibe she is a female-bodied person who identifies themself as female, but still never wanted to consider, or admit, they were lesbian. I don't really know yet, we have to talk more about it.
I didn't even realize to consider that some of the sheer awkwardness of this situation could, and probably does steam from the fact that I relate to her differently now that I know she's a girl-- even if that's the only thing that basically changed.
She's told me that she'll understand if I want to walk out of the relationship or if I want to take a break, or anything of that sort. Currently I don't think I want to take the distance, I'd rather work these things out together than let my own thoughts distort the truth when I can't get a second opinion. It's a lot to process, I'm still kind of.. very confused, I guess.
Posts: 9 | From: Disclosed | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
It sounds like not only do you need to talk more about all of this, but that she does. If she kept all this from you for this long, I'm presuming perhaps she has not really talked about any of it with anyone else at all?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me S.E.X: Get my book! Knowledge is power. Information is power. The secreting or hoarding of knowledge or information may be an act of tyranny camouflaged as humility. - Robin Morgan Posts: 39809 | From: Seattle | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
I'm feeling a lot more comfortable with all this, even though it's still a little weird for it now being "alright" to feel attracted to her female body, as before I was dead set on denying my bisexuality and hoping I would "stop" being bisexual if I just tried hard enough to be straight. Not that I have any problems with people being whatever orientation they happen to be-- I just didn't want myself to identify as bi. Why this is so, I really don't know, and I really hope no one holds it against me.
As for your question, no, she has never talked to anyone about these kinds of issues. I suggested she'd see a professional so she wouldn't have to worry about people gossiping, but she generally doesn't want to talk with anyone. She'd also prefer to keep me a secret from her family and friends and I better understand that now, she's scared of rejection and discrimination if people knew. I'm not comfortable telling my family or friends either.
And from what I gather from what she says, I think she IDs female, but didn't really want to be lesbian, thus winding up impersonating a male. But we've yet to talk about all this properly, it'll take time.
Posts: 9 | From: Disclosed | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Cian: I don't know how you feel about this insofar as you having Scarleteen for your own use, but by all means, if you'd be comfortable with it, you're welcome to suggest Scarleteen as a place she can come and discuss any of this safely and anonymously.
In the meantime, might she be open to doing some reading? I could certainly suggest a few books I think might be helpful, for her or for both of you.
By the way, we understand that coming to terms with any sexual orientation can take time for people, and that people have a wide array of feelings about various orientations. We also will always understand that it can be particularly tough to be in any minority or oppressed group, and that some people would prefer not to be members of groups which face discrimination or bias.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me S.E.X: Get my book! Knowledge is power. Information is power. The secreting or hoarding of knowledge or information may be an act of tyranny camouflaged as humility. - Robin Morgan Posts: 39809 | From: Seattle | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I shall ask her if she'd like to discuss these things anonymously here. And I'll also ask if she'd like some reading. I could use some myself, I think. Although things are fairly "normal" between us, I still have some trouble adjusting.
My "newest" problem is with intimacy. I used to be fairly confident in myself and what I did because she is a very.. convincing faker. but now knowing she has always had to fake, and knowing I really wasn't "that good", I feel like I've failed her and myself. One a scale from one to ten I went from being a nine to feeling a minus ten. I really, really thought I wasn't half bad when it came down to sex and I was quite proud of myself in that regard. And now I realize I have never done a single thing right for her.
When we talk about it she says she wants to focus on me, and I figure this might be because she knows she's never had an orgasm and might be nervous about letting me down-- I've told her that as long as she feels satisfied it's fine with me, and I know it's not easy to peak. If I tell her I'd like to focus on her, she'll retaliate by saying she'd be happier if we focused on me instead. It makes me feel rejected. I suppose it's too much to ask, seeing as how I've never pleased her so far, it must be awkward for her now that I know she fakes.
I'm sorry about the rant. Our sexual encounters have always been hugely pleasurable for me, and I feel guilty knowing she's never enjoyed herself that much.
Posts: 9 | From: Disclosed | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Per books, why don't you start with Kate Bornstien's "My Gender Workbook?"
Can I ask why you're figuring she was faking her sexual enjoyment (rather than just orgasm)? Because while I understand she wasn't honest with you about her gender, I haven't seen you say anything that suggested she must have been faking sexual enjoyment.
Of course, I also think since this has been a 100% not-in-person relationship, it doesn't really even make sense to consider what you're like as a sexual partner. After all, none of this has been in-person sex where your bodies were interacting in any way. Additionally, I strongly question the whole notion of self-esteem about being "good" at sex in a general way, since sex with every partner is different, and being "good in bed" with someone isn't always the same skillset from partner to partner (and what those skills are tend to be things like good communication -- which is tough when a partner hasn't been honest, and that's not your fault -- creativity and plain old care: not things like how supa-sexy someone is or what they do with their mouth during oral sex).
I think you might be making some assumptions you don't need to. She says she wants things to be about you, but instead of assuming why, why not just ASK why?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me S.E.X: Get my book! Knowledge is power. Information is power. The secreting or hoarding of knowledge or information may be an act of tyranny camouflaged as humility. - Robin Morgan Posts: 39809 | From: Seattle | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hello, Cian! I see you're getting the help and advice you need, but I would like to give some personal thoughts. I was similar to your online friend- it was not the same situation and the girl (let's call her Kaitlin) and I only flirted. But this went on for about a year. I told her I was a guy. It began as a fun thing to do but I realized I really liked my guy persona. Though I know now I am not trans, I enjoyed going online and being a guy.
"As a guy", I was the exact same person. Same interests, same everything. It was not a fantasy life-- only the gender was changed.
Kaitlin thought that we could have an online relationship and I let her know that I am female. I did not use my male persona for very long at all but it was long enough. She was very angry, understandably. She never fully trusted me even though we had only been friends. Being 'out' as female online took away the fun for me, but I felt better about it.
It was soothing when I read in My Gender Workbook by Kate Borenstein (I saw that Heather mentioned it too!) that she actually -suggests- for people to try out being different genders online, because it's a safe place to "pass". I no longer have my gender questions, but I can look back and rationalize why I liked doing it now.
However, I am not trying to sway you one way or the other. I would be incredibly skeptical if I were you. I understood Kaitlin's worries and I understand yours.
Four years is a long time to go by a gender one is not/does not ID as, especially in a relationship.
I have a feeling that your friend may need some assistance in that area (sexuality). It seems she cares for you a lot. And Scarleteen would be a really good place for her to talk about what's going on. She would do well with talking to someone or reading up on some sources.
-------------------- - "Perhaps the answer to the question lies in the question." -Tori Amos Posts: 53 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I never said I thought I was good at sex in a technicaly way, I don't see how I could be with zero hands-on experience. What I mean by good, and understanding that we have had to be creative in this sense, since we can't touch each other, is that I thought I was very good at giving her what she enjoyed. Now knowing I've been as lousy a lover as I always feared I might be, I feel crushed. I've never met her needs, and now she won't even let me try.
Well, we obviously have plenty of work to do and plenty of talking to do. Ah, giving me a headache as is.
Posts: 9 | From: Disclosed | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Cian: I'm moving forward with this conversation assuming that you do feel okay/want to continue this relationship, even given the very long breach of trust. If you ever want to stop back and talk about that, we can do that, okay?
As you know, when it comes to sex with someone else, it takes two to tango. If a partner isn't communicating honestly with you, you really can't expect yourself to be able to respond to anything BUT what they ARE telling you. This isn't about you being a lousy lover: it's about someone else not doing their part so that you could be responsive to their reality (though in part, I do think you have been b/c it does sound like gender ID really is an issue here, IMO).
At most, it makes you a lousy psychic. Clearly, you should abandon any dreams of reading people's minds for your living.
In other words, if you really want your bedroom wall painted red, but you tell me to paint it green, I haven't failed in any way by painting it green, or been a bad painter because I did what you asked me for. I'm not in any way responsible -- especially if I was honest on my part, made clear I wanted to know what color you wanted it -- for your choice to communicate something different than what you wanted. Know what I mean?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me S.E.X: Get my book! Knowledge is power. Information is power. The secreting or hoarding of knowledge or information may be an act of tyranny camouflaged as humility. - Robin Morgan Posts: 39809 | From: Seattle | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I suppose you have a very good point, Heather. I still feel upset for not having been able to meet her needs, and still missing the mark. Other thing I have a problem with is being attracted to her physically, since I surpressed any attraction I felt for another female for all these years in my efforts to be 'straight', and even in my bisexuality I am primarily into males.
It feels difficult to be attracted to her on that level. I've now seen her naked and it felt much more so casual than it felt exciting. Like it wasn't a big deal, even though I know it was. It's frustrating, because I love her very much on an emotional level, I don't want to love her any less on a physical level. Before, when she was still a he to me, when she'd show me "neutral" areas her belly or back, I'd be really excited. I put neutral in quotes because I realize not all people consider them neutral, and for instance the back for me is a very sexual area. But now I just didn't feel any different. Her body is very beautiful (and I try very hard not to compare it to mine), I just feel there's a switch in my brain that has been turned Off and now I don't know how to turn in back On.
I'm afraid our relationship will take damage from my inability to be turned on by her, and I most definitely don't want her to think it's her fault. She's lovely in every respect, it's me who's broken.
Posts: 9 | From: Disclosed | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
Here's what I'm hearing: what it sounds like to me, is that this is a woman who you are not feeling sexually attracted to. Emotionally, yes, but not sexually. That doesn't suggest you are broken to me: it simply is a reminder that we aren't always sexually attracted to people -- even those of us who are of an orientation where, potentially, we can be attracted to anyone -- we have emotional feelings for. Sexual attraction tends to be a bit more random.
And yes, I know, this same woman had a male persona to whom you were strongly attracted, but it was that: a persona. If it helps as a comparison, while I tend to be more easily attracted to women than men, I have a lot of friends who have been or are drag kings for performance. And there were times when I found them VERY attractive as kings, though when they weren't performing, I wasn't attracted to them IRL.
I also think you need to remember that there was a BIG breach of trust here, and that also may be playing a part in your feelings. Four years of dishonesty, even if someone's reasons are something we can understand, is a LONG time.
My sense is you are holding yourself to much higher standards and expectations than you are holding her, and I'm not sure I understand why or know how to make that clear. You seem to keep falling back on all the things you perceive as being wrong with you in a situation where you were the person wronged.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me S.E.X: Get my book! Knowledge is power. Information is power. The secreting or hoarding of knowledge or information may be an act of tyranny camouflaged as humility. - Robin Morgan Posts: 39809 | From: Seattle | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I suppose it's my way of coping. If there is fault in me, it means I can fix it, as opposed to a fault that's outside my own person. I'm a bit of a control freak sometimes, I feel uneasy if I cannot control the situation I'm in.
Then thing is, I don't want to not be sexually attracted to her. I've never seen her this happy and at ease, for understandable reasons, she's never been this enthusiastic. I couldn't be happier knowing she can finally breathe easy and knowing there's no more secrets between us. I don't want it all to fall to pieces.
I do get upset about our entire relationship having been, albeit only partly, a lie. I can't think of all the things we've done and all the memories I have the same way anymore, they feel tainted in a sense. That might play a part in my overall loss of libido at the moment.
I'm just afraid it won't change and I'll be stuck like this, unable to appreciate her in a sexual sense. It's a distressing thought because I really, really love her. If I didn't, I don't think I would've wanted to stay with her after all this unraveled.
Posts: 9 | From: Disclosed | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hear you. I have had people in my life I so, so wished I felt sexually attracted to, too. The thing is, that's not something we can force or make happen, nor is it something that will always happen just because we love someone. Chemistry is just pretty out of our hands.
Let's play a little what-if, okay? What IF it turns out the the best relationship for the two of you, the one that is about how both of you really feel, is a friendship. Could each of you not get the same kinds of benefits to your lives you have already via a friendship? If not, want to talk about why you think you couldn't?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me S.E.X: Get my book! Knowledge is power. Information is power. The secreting or hoarding of knowledge or information may be an act of tyranny camouflaged as humility. - Robin Morgan Posts: 39809 | From: Seattle | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
Copyright 1998, 2009 Heather Corinna/Scarleteen
Scarleteen.com: Providing comprehensive sex education online to teens and young adults worldwide since 1998
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Heather is asking a lot of important questions and will be able to give you some excellent insight, but I did want to talk about this one point for a second. While partnered sex isn't *just* about orgasms (they carry different amounts of importance for different individuals), but there is truly no double-standard for orgasms. Here orgasms are of equal importance to men/women/transgendered folk, and I find that statement very troubling. Not because it's bad that you said it -- please feel free and safe to express yourself as long as it's done in a respectful manner -- but because I see a lot of built-up stuff about gender roles and expectations there. 
Printer-friendly view of this topic