It's hard for me to trust him, eventhough he trys to be so so so honest with me. I just can't believe the good things he says eversince that day when we broke up because he felt like he was forcing himself into loving me, and lying to himself and me.

Anyway he says that sex with me is about love and he uses porn because he doesn't want to substitue that for a hornieness extinguisher alone. It's not too satisfiying for him so it's better to imagine other girls. It makes sense, and it makes me feel really good about our relationship, and i want to trust this, but its so hard for me.

Personally, if anyone shows up in my bedroom uninvited, they're getting tossed out. That goes double for anyone who presents themselves as a sex object.

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-- Sapphire Cat

Condense soup, not books!

Both men and women have the capacity to be sexually aroused by pornography, and both men and women have the capacity to perpetuate acts of sexual violence on each other. Men and women can be raped and can be rapists. (And if you want to discuss this, I would suggest moving on over to sexual ethics and politics and starting a new thread there.)

And, not all men like porn, and not all women don't like porn. And there exists pornography and erotica where women are not portrayed as dumb sex kittens (and Miz Scarlet and Hanne make some fine examples of that). Women even make their own pornography.

Why is porn a "competition?" Is there only one woman who can be beautiful/desirable/attractive to your partner? If you or your partner find other men or women attractive, does that mean you don't truly love them? It's kinda dangerous to think that way, in my opinion.

I think that we can all be attracted to many people, and we can find many people attractive or desirable -- and that it's what we DO about those attractions that speaks volumes about who we are. So instead of focusing on the attraction, I think it's more important to focus on what's being done about it. Is your partner telling you that you need to look like a porn star? Are you telling your partner to look like some hot celebrity? Is your partner using porn to keep from communicating about your relationship, or is it causing friction in your relationship to an extent that it's unmanageable? If so, then yes, that's problematic.

I think that if you are having trouble trusting your partner, Duff, then yeah, porn might feel like a threat because you do feel insecure and are worried about him leaving. It sounds like you're doing your best to communicate with him, and that he is communicating with you, and I think that's really the best you can do.

My boyfriend looks at porn. Heck, sometimes I send him porn that I think is good. We have pretty much the same taste when it comes to those things. But we've also discussed the fact that I'm not built like some of those women, and he's not built like some of those men, and as long as we never expect that, or expect the actions that some characters take, then we're both ok with it. And I appreciate a beautiful female body just as much as he does, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't at all mind the fact that when he's watching or reading those things, he's not fantisizing about getting with those women, he's thinking about us in that same situation (or at least that's what he says, and I believe him).

I love the fact that I can be the sex kitten and the dom, the pin-up and the sub, and everything else in between, and I am still completely positive that he respects me in every way as a person.

~KittenGoddess
Scarleteen Advocate

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"Not everything in this magical world is quite what it seems"

And as far as playing those roles goes, I feel like for me personally, any role I choose to sexually play is just a part of my sexual personality anyway.

Second, we try not to tell folks "you're wrong" here unless it's over a matter that can be really proved, like an anatomical fact or a sex safety statistic. What may or may not be going through the mind of somebody's boyfriend whom you've never met obviously does not fall into that category.

Moving on...

In many cases, those porn stars don't look "real." I have known many men who, when it comes down to the crunch, definitely prefer the women they meet every day to most of the pin-up queens out there. These are mature, sweet, attractive men, and they simply don't care for silicone or even perfect tans.

Again, keep in mind that everyone has his or her own "standard of beauty." Certain people will fall inside the parameters of that standard, while others will be (at least at first glance) too skinny, too fat, too tall, too short, too blonde, too dark, too freckled, etc. But part of getting to know someone is appreciating far more than his or her physical appearance.

The myth that a small women with big breasts is the be-all and end-all of human existence drives me insane. Obviously someone must like that body type since it seems to be found in pornographic magazines a lot, but nobody I know or talk to seems to find that attractive. Fake breasts have never interested me, emaciated women make me feel queasy. My best friends both have girlfriends who look nothing like that stereotype and are perfectly happy. I'm drooling over a girl I find to be the most attractive woman around, and I love the fact that she is real and not some airbrushed and polished thing that would fit best in a wax museum. Instead, she is naturally beautiful and I find that to be stunning in and of itself.

The same holds true for the concept that men like the "bimbo." Perhaps some do, but I don't know them. I do remember seeing girls who were incredibly smart in junior high, who magically acted dumb once they got to high school. That was tragic because I think they ended up selling themselves short in the pursuit of what they thought boys would like. The fact that their thought was erroneous was not lost upon me, as those girls did not seem to attract any more boys than the "smart" girls did. And meanwhile, my friends and I felt rotten because we were looking for intelligent women that we could actually have mature conversations with. And you know what? After a while I managed to find one who could not only hold conversations with me...but who could floor me in political debates and leave me wondering what had hit me. Intelligence is a wonderful thing, and a great many of us adore women who can outsmart us.

The bottom line is that there are so many different people with so many different tastes that it is almost impossible to come up with a generalization that holds solid. While I see where lgray has valid points with some of the claims she makes, I still think its important to draw a distinction between her perception of what men want and like, and what real men actually want and like. We're all different, not one big monolithic block like the media would have you believe, and I'll take my naturally beautiful intelligent woman any day of the week.

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"Verdugo, Engine 14; you can cancel all units responding to this structure fire...this is just a dishwasher gone bad."

In society today, I am looked at as a very unattractive and sexually unappealing woman just because I'm overweight. My S.O. is not into porn, it does absolutely nothing for him, looking at girls being sluts and using up their bodies for money and being sex symbols who are fake. When we see a girl on a movie or a picture sticking some fruit or something up her or doing an orgy or something, heck yeah, you can bet your nostrils we're gonna automatically say "she's a slut". If you really look at it, though, she is portraying herself as that, so why shouldn't we say that if because some people are overweight they are looked at and generalized as ugly and a complete turn-off. I know I had a boyfriend who watched porn and looked at porn. Of course I look absolutely nothing what they look like in the porns and stuff. I feel like I'm not satisfying enough, and that he has to go somewhere else to be satisfied appearance wise. It makes me feel like I have to add up to their qualities in order for my man to have enjoyable erections or masturbation or what have you. It's a sense of worthlessness. Yes, it is an insecurity, but if your partner is especially devoted to your happiness, then why continue with something causing an insecurity?

As for the thing about your boyfriend saying he can't be turned on by himself so he has to look at other women to get turned on, how about this.... couldn't he just think of you? Couldn't you send him pics or something? Couldn't he just look at normal pics of you and be just as turned on? And most of all, why does he "HAVE" to masterbate? If he isn't sexually arroused, then why go masturbate to other women just because?

As for the role playing thing. I would not role play with my SO. I like to think that my SO is pleased with who I am and not what I can play or try to be. Shouldn't a partner encourage their SO to love themselves for who they are? Yes they should, so why act like you're something else?

Once again, well said, Igray.

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quote:

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heck yeah, you can bet your nostrils we're gonna automatically say "she's a slut". If you really look at it, though, she is portraying herself as that, so why shouldn't we say that if because some people are overweight they are looked at and generalized as ugly and a complete turn-off.

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I don't know if it's that helpful to say you're justified in perpetuating one unfair standard just because you yourself have been the victim of another unfair standard. And it is unfair to call women (or men) "sluts" in a derogatory fashion- it implies that just a person is demeaned by their sexual choices, even if those choices are safe and consensual. As such, it demeans that person's ability to make that choice for themselves.

It's also a good idea to remember that while mainstream pornography does tend to focus only on one unrealistic body type, it's unfair to throw all of pornography into that category. There is some pornography that focuses on a variety of body types in both men and women- we can't posts any links here, because of our underage readership, but trust me, it's out there.

Another thing to think of is just because your boyfriend (or girlfriend) finds a body type from a porn magazine appealing it doesn't necessarily mean that he finds it MORE appealing than you- it might be that more than one body type turns him/her on.

Furthermore, most of us can be turned on by things that we might not really find interesting in real life- there's nothing wrong with this, it's a natural part of human sexuality. One good thing about masturbation is that it allows people to explore these fantasies without getting hurt, and without being unfaithful if they are in a committed relationship. Sometimes pornography can be used in conjunction with this- and your partner might use pornography for a reason as simple as that they want this to be a part of their private exploration of their sexuality- it does not necessarily mean that they find exploring their sexuality with you and less fulfilling and meaningful- in any relationship, both (or all) partners benefit from private time to get in touch with themselves, and private exploration of sexuality can be part of this.

However, I am going to ask that right now (and really, this should not have happened here at all, and I am highly dissapointed that it did), the whole "adult actresses are as dumb as a bag of rocks" diatribe gets dropped. It is NOT okay to generalize about ANY group here, and I can't imagine anyone thinking it was okay to say the same thing about flight attendants, or waitresses or men or women from a certain region, etc. Flatly, it's bigotry, and I don't want to see it or pay for it. Not only does it hurt feelings of some of our users and staff, it is patently incorrect, and tends to reflect worse on whoever is making those statements than it does in terms of who the subject of those statements are.

For the record, most of our sexperts here have worked or do work in aspects of the adult industry, in many varied forms, and I don't get the impression that most of our users think we're unintelligent, and if we are, then considering we are who most questions are asked of, that doesn't speak very highly of our users for asking "bimbos" such important questions. As well, just as an aside, one of the top adult actresses out there is a member of MENSA and a very funny and intelligent woman.

I could go on, but as I said, I don't have time,. but do realize that when you make those sorts of statements, what you're actually doing is really rather Victiorian: you're judging sommeone's intelligence by what you see, and because you feel you have the right to because of some aspects of their sexual expression. And that sort of thing is what really contributes to sexual ignorance and repression -- of any gender -- more than anything else.

I also do NOT want to see any discussion here in which anyone goes on about how any action means someone is "deserving of a slap," or that "anyone would slap them." not only is that patently not so, as Dan mentiuoned (and I think John did as well), domestic violence isn't legal. For any reason, towards any party. And that's sound.

As I said, I don't have time to address this at length, but some of the tone here has this thread in danger of being closed when I and Bettie return from our visit, so if you want to continue the conversation, understand the guidelines apply here too, and please pay heed to what I have just said.

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

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I consider it degrading to have someone who doesn't know squat about me nor the details of the industry I work in to make value judgements about me, assume they can guess at what my motivations are, or assume they can know anything about the whole deal any more than I can assume I know what a molecular biologist is doing in detail, what her motivations are or what sort of person she is without having studied molecular biology and known that particular person. Because a woman or man works in sexuality does not make it any more okay to insult or judge them here or anywhere else, as I made patently clear in my last post. In the real world, folks, EVERYONE is getting paid for something they do with some aspect of their bodies if they have a job. If no one else is being directly hurt because of their actions, any judgment is totally subjective, not objective.

In other words, what one person finds degrading for them, another may not. Myself, I know that based on my own beliefs and lifestyle, I would find it very degrading to be paid minimum wage for flipping ground dead cows in grease, calling it food, and helping to clog the world's arteries and pollute the environment with methane gas from factory farming. Someone else might be just fine with that, but not be fine with getting paid a good word rate for wiriting erotica, or with creating erotic art. neither of us would be right or wrong. It is SUBJECTIVE, and calling one thing good or another bad based on your perception ONLY is a moral value judgement which isn't okay here, and to respect people's feelings (including mine, I canot tell you how hurtful I found some of this discussion, personally, given all I do here for our users) I asked this line ceased.

I'm not kidding when I say that these sorts of discussions need to follow guidelines and say they must or else certain consequences will follow.

From the guidelines:
You agree that you will not use this board to post any material which is knowingly false or defamatory, deliberately inaccurate, abusive, hateful, harassing, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

When posting, you are expected to be respectful of your fellow posters and our staff, and to use language which is unlikely to offend anyone, which is not salacious or overly explicit, and which encourages intelligent, safe and mature discussion of the issues at hand.

Users may have their posting privileges permanently removed without warning for any of the following:

* falsifying information or identification via multiple handles, copyright infringement or other means,
* harassment of any sort of other users and/or staff via the boards or e-mail (and that includes religious prosletyzing),
* spamming the board in any way,
* continual refusal to follow this user agreement,
* three or more posts closed, deleted or direct warnings given due to your behavior or misuse of the boards per the user agreement
* and/or general lack of positive response to staff reminders, guidelines or limits which may be set by the judgment of the staff or site owner.

On short, a user in this thread has been given leeway (in regard to misuse of the boards and ignoring the guidelines) wider than the San Andreas Fault, over numerous months, and that allowance has now come to a total and complete halt, having been pushed utterly beyond the limit in the last few days. It should be no great surprise when one of the users in this thread finds that she no longer has posting rights here at Scarleteen, nor will they be restored again.

(And if I recieve harassment via email regarding this situation, as I have before when these rules have been enforced with this user, they will find themselves reported to their ISP, so I SINCERELY suggest they simply take their lump of coal and move on.)

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

My epitaph should read: "She worked herself into this ground."
-- Kay Bailey Hutchinson

quote:

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Originally posted by SolitaryTear:
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand it. If a woman is standing on the corner getting paid for sex, she's a prostitute and she's a whore. A woman in a pornography video who has sex on screen is exactly the same minus the corner. Isn't it degrading? You're selling your body, your sex, for money, and not to mention you don't even know who you're sleeping with. If you see a woman on the street doing the same thing, you're going to say "dang, what a whore, she's probably all diseased up". Don't lie, you know that's the first thing that's gonna cross your mind. ...

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I have to admit, I was really puzzled at who in the world would come into the house here, an invited guest, and then piddle all over the rug in such a manner. Especially after being chastised for such moralistic judgementalism.

Skimming your site, I found your pronouncements that your belief in your god is fairly significant to you and that 'Jesus is in charge'. Knowing, of course, that in my fifty years of reading about JC and his statements that I never found anything quite so harhly judgemental attributed to him perhaps there was some mistake. Apparently someone must have pirated your log on to write such hateful things about your hostess here; no one close to the Jesus I've read would so such a thing.

In your links page I found the nice comments: "Scarleteen is a great website for asking questions about your body and also receiving the answers. With prompt responses, and nice people, there's no reason, if you're confused about something, not to visit this site. I believe that this is the best sex education around. Visit it!"... so I knew that the 'real you' would come here for asking questions, not for making judgements.

Must have been some other dude got ahold of your keyboard.

Glass houses and all that. Have a smurfy day.

Peter
who thinks that MizS is just peachy

Even when you're working through tough issues in your relationship, I hope you can take a few moments to appreciate just you as you are and see where you're going, because I for one am really proud of you.)

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Heather Corinna
Editor and Founder, Scarleteen

One of the highest grossing movies of last year was American Pie. I saw that movie and I enjoyed it. Still, I did not take what I saw there (lots of very negative stereotypes about teens) and apply it to reality. To do so would be a diservice to all teens. Same thing goes for sexual performers and porn.

There is lots of silliness and tackiness out there in mainstream movies as well as in pornography. Again look at any of the recent popular movies (anything from Adam Sandler or any of the teen flicks). They aren't high-brow stuff. Porn, like a great deal of mainstream entertainment, is not meant to be an actual representation of any kind of sexual reality. It is meant to entertain. It does so by being superficial so one can focus on the sexual acts. The rest is window dressing - and like everything else its appeal is competely subjective. You can take it or leave it.

Yes, a good deal of it is poorly acted. Keep in mind that the performers are not chosen for their acting skills, but for their ability to have sex in front of a camera. It may sound like it is something most anyone could do, but it is not -especially for the men (that's why the guys are not always hunks -they are chosen for their performance abilities not their looks). Also the production values can be low, but that just reflects the consumer driven mentality of the industry. They make lots of movies on a low budget instead of a few high bidget movies. The public eats it up, so the companies spit it out.

Well, that is my personal take on porn (an insider's view if you will). I could go on and on because I have experienced the industry in front and behind the camera, as well as a consumer.

Now onto the Duff's topic. People have addressed it already, but I thought I'd share my thoughts.

It seems that the whole porn-insecurity issue is more complicated that it appears. Porn won't cause a partner to fall out of love with you. If someone is spending enormous amounts of time doing any activity instead of spending time they used to spend with you, it is usually a sign that something is off within the relationship. The activity itself usually is not the cause. it could be porn, but it also could be TV, video games, sports, hanging out with other friends but not you....

I say put the issue of porn aside and look at what is going on within the relationship. I hope he is able to share what he is feeling because only he can tell you about that.

Good luck Duff.

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Louise Lalonde
-Scarleteen Sexpert & Volunteer du Jour

You get "perfect" men and you get "perfect" women in those videos. Now, I can look at the guy, for example, and think, "Wow, nice butt!" but I have never, ever, ever once thought "And I wish my partner had a butt like that!"

I don't wish he had a butt like that. And although it's never occured to me to ask, I've never thought that he wished I was any different than I am. Every day, we *choose* to be with our partners; if they want something other than what we offer, there are billions of other people out there to choose from

Also, I think sharing and talking makes things far less intimidating. Many years ago in a previous relationship, my then-bf and I looked at Penthouse together rather regularly. Let me tell you, after looking at it with him and talking about all the women and what made them attractive, I felt a LOT less nervous/intimidated/threatend about it than I did before.

I think it's that "communication is healthy" thing again

Seriously, in mainstream porn what we see is very young women (though women are now working past age 25 so there is some variety) who spend a great deal of time getting their hair and make up done. Many have had their bodies surgically alterted. Very few are natural beauties. Plus, they have lighting and editing on their sides. Get them first thing in the morning and we'd see something very different.

The same kind of work goes into producing music videos. Don't tell me Janet Jackson is a natural beauty -she has had cosmetic surgey and she works out some 4 hours a day. Not to mention the amount of make-up she wears. I like her, but I don't compare myself to her. Give me the time to train that much, a good doctor and some wonderful make up artists and hairdressers, then we can compare. But who wants to do all that. I rather just sit back and enjoy her music and videos. Same thing with porn.

If you want to be less intimidated by what you see in porn there is home-made porn. Some of the mainstream's youth and thiness factor has rubbed off on it, but there is a great deal that is quite real. You'll find older women, women who weigh more than 120lbs, women with crooked teeth. You get the not-so-perfect picture.

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Louise Lalonde
-Scarleteen Sexpert & Volunteer du Jour

Reading some of these posts has completely changed my opinion about the subject. I know that I definately wouldn't want my boyfriend looking at porn to be tunred on. I understand the maturbation but I don't want to feel like I have to live up to those fake girls in porn movies and pictures.

I know it is an insecurity on the girls' side. But I think we have a right to say that we don't want them staring at other girls for pleasure. It has nothing to do with the men finding other women attractive. That's understandable. I'm not saying that they can't look at a women and say "She's sexy." or whatever. But I don't want to feel like that's the only think that turns him on.

The "beauty" of the women in those movies and pictures is something that I could never, or even want to achieve. I want him to love me because I'm me and grow to understand that he doesn't need those fake girls on the screen when he has me.

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

Everyone has their own opinions and, whether or not you agree with them, they deserve respect--it keeps life interesting.

As a guy, I can speak from experience:
We get hard . . . sometimes for absolutely no reason at all (it's a chemical war). "Waiting it out" doesn't work sometimes mainly because it isn't timely, so quick, aided, almost mechanical masturbation gets the job done in a pinch.

quote:

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Originally posted by twitchyactress:
And please remember, when porn degrades the women in it, that woman desided to be in that porno. She did it to herself. Don't blame men for everything, please!

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WHOOOOO boy, do you have to be craeful with statements like that.

The trouble is that while, yes, *most* adult women in sex work choose to do so on their own, without coercion or without being under duress, that isn't the case for ALL of them, especially in third world countries.

Moreover, those who profit most greatly, who make the most money, in pornography, are not the actors -- male or female -- but the producers, who are in nearly all cases, still, male. And on top of THAT, you have to bear in mind that many women's opportunities globally when it comes to supporting themselves are not equal to the opportunities men have. For a lot of women in various forms of sex work, sex work is the only work where they can make the level of income they are (which is often pretty moderate), with the least amount of hours, which becomes a very genedered issue when you factor in issues like how many women as opposed to men are single parents, so they cannot work as many hours as single, childless men and have less income to work with for their families.

None of that is to say all porn is "bad," but merely that it's a far more complex issue if you're going to talk about exploitation than women "deciding for themselves" to do sex work.

quote:

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Originally posted by lgray:
So, pretty much the consensus on porn is take it or leave it? But the problem is, I think if I could stop focusing on the beautiful women which make me feel bad and start concentrating on the sex alone.... maybe I could enjoy porn. I want to know, where do you get the confidence to watch porn (by yourself but more amazingly w/ your partner) and not tear yourself up for not being perfect?

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I'm just going to say a couple of things...
First thing:

Perfection is false, cause if there were a thing with perfection then it would be ultimately boring.
Like the "perfect body" you keep speaking of... Eventually, because your boy is human, he would become bored of it, even if it took hundreds of years he couldn't possibly live... The same could be said about anyone human. So this whole thing of cutting yourself down because of some women in movies because of their "perfect bodies", its just not worth it. Its the little flaws you find in a body to be everlasting in your memory, a "perfect body" would create no indention in your memory to remember... so don't think about porno that way. No matter what you look like, whoever you are with will remember your body because of the way it was and the ripple of emotion it made in their memory. And to help yourself about how you feel, just look in the mirror and see the things that you don't like, and either learn to accept them for you, or if you can with a little effort change them. My example would be how I got a little flabbier when going to college, so I'm going to do some leg raises and some crunches, and then I'll get toned. Again I won't have that "perfect body", but i'd get something that would work for me.

And the second thing is this.
Second thing: (heh heh)
There is such porno that hosts good lookin fellows. I'm pretty sure I can't give exact names but let me give some hints.
Porno
Punks/goths
5th pair of actors in the movie
Guy with black hair and blue eyes and a nice...body. yep. nice body. And good acting. The only one guy in a porn movie to not only stick to naughty slang and angry man grunt sounds... very enjoyable.