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Archer4736
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Despite the title of my messagew which could be seen as inflamitary, i am just interested in your views on this subject.

I myself am a hetrosexual male. And very much a liberal in favor of equality, and human rights. The last flat i shared with seven people including two homosexual men, whom i got on great with, and am still friends.

The thing that makes me ask the question "do some gay people bring the homophobia on themselves" is the people that are not only openly gay but can not understand that some people have intolerances towards it.

People that flirt with straight men just to get a bad reaction, which i see going on in clubs where i live all the time, annoys the hell out of me. Recently a gay man in the club after being told that i'm straight proceded to grab my genitalia, i personally wouldnbt like the fittest blonde in the room to do so while i am trying to have a chat with a friend of mine and a quiet drink (at least not without asking first:) ).

I myself have to becarefull of what i say and do in public, and understand that not everyone abrees with my politics, religion and views, so why do some gay men and women do so much to dammage the work that great people have done to make equality work. I say this because of the recent rise in the UK of political parties such as athe BNP and BNF
(British national party and British National Front, which are openly racist, homophobic and patriarchal). Which are increasing homophobic feeling by giving people a banner under which to fight.

So what do you guys think, do you think that maybe some of the gay population is causing a backlash against it from religious and political groups or is homophobia just the homophobics fault?

[ 07-03-2006, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Miz Scarlet ]

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logic_grrl
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The thing that makes me ask the question "do some gay people bring the homophobia on themselves" is the people that are not only openly gay but can not understand that some people have intolerances towards it.

Why shouldn't people be "openly gay"?

Imagine if someone said that racism was the fault of people being "openly black".

I agree that grabbing someone's genitals is extremely rude (and in fact constitutes assault), but it'd be unacceptable coming from anyone.

Most women would be able to tell you that there are plenty of straight men who think it's okay to grab or grope them in clubs.

But nobody holds that up as "proof" that straight men shouldn't have equal rights.

Gay people shouldn't have to be super-saintly in order to "deserve" equal rights.

--------------------
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it." - the Talmud

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Archer4736
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I am not saying there is anything wrong with being openly gay, but just that there may be arguments that due to other peoples belifes (not mine by the way) but many highly religious right people, maybe acting in the way some gay/lesbian/bi people do act is showing intollerance of their views.

I do agree that many men think its ok to grope girls in clubs, and i would be totaly againt this, however the point i was trying to make is that KNOWING my sexual orientation, then groping me i would say is EVEN worse than groping another gay man, or me gropeing a girl i knew was gay. ( Not that i'd dream of groping anyone uninvited).

Do people not think that this sort of behaviour by some members of the gay community, who seem to be showcasing that they are gay, often to people that are intolerant, shows ignorance in itself is what is causing some of the backlash from the groups i mentioned in my first post?

Often religious people that don't belive that being gay is ok are attacked for their belifes. Why is that religious intolerance any different to the homophobic intolerance they show?

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logic_grrl
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but many highly religious right people, maybe acting in the way some gay/lesbian/bi people do act is showing intollerance of their views.

I'm unclear what you're saying. Are you saying that being "openly gay" is "intolerant" of the views of religious right-wingers?

Equally, you could say that being "openly black" is intolerant of the views of racists!

Tolerating people's right to hold all sorts of views doesn't mean that you have to hide your existence from view in order not to "offend" people who believe you are disgusting and shouldn't exist.

the point i was trying to make is that KNOWING my sexual orientation, then groping me i would say is EVEN worse than groping another gay man, or me gropeing a girl i knew was gay.

Why is is worse that groping anyone else who's known to be un-interested?

And especially, why is it "worse" than you groping a girl who you know is a lesbian?

Why should unwanted sexual touch be "worse" just because you're a straight man?

--------------------
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it." - the Talmud

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Archer4736
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I am not saying there is anything wrong with being openly gay, but just that there may be arguments that due to other peoples belifes (not mine by the way) but many highly religious right people, maybe acting in the way some gay/lesbian/bi people do act is showing intollerance of their views.

I do agree that many men think its ok to grope girls in clubs, and i would be totaly againt this, however the point i was trying to make is that KNOWING my sexual orientation, then groping me i would say is EVEN worse than groping another gay man, or me gropeing a girl i knew was gay. ( Not that i'd dream of groping anyone uninvited).

Do people not think that this sort of behaviour by some members of the gay community, who seem to be showcasing that they are gay, often to people that are intolerant, shows ignorance in itself is what is causing some of the backlash from the groups i mentioned in my first post?

Often religious people that don't belive that being gay is ok are attacked for their belifes. Why is that religious intolerance any different to the homophobic intolerance they show?

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Archer4736
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Sorry, posted the wrong message there, as my computor played up.

What was meant to be posted was...

That in short yes, in a way being openly gay to a level of offensiveness is possibly wrong, and reminisant of the race issue in the us.

Yes what gay people have done for equality is great, and there should be equality, but im just scared that the way some people act, and behave in a intollerant way towards others belifes is just asking for a backlash. Your exactly right when u say "like being openly black" yes, people like booker T Washington, Rosa Lee Parks and Martin Luthor King, were all doing a great deal for the difficault issue of race relations in the US, but i fear that the white protestant backlash was caused my the more aggressive and intollerant views of people like Malcombe X and Marcus Garvey, who provoked a massive backlash to their often violent, and highly intolerAnt views. Is the same thing going to happen to the Gay community as what happened to the African American comunity?

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logic_grrl
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That in short yes, in a way being openly gay to a level of offensiveness is possibly wrong

So what do you mean by "openly gay to a level of offensiveness"?

Plenty of white racists were very offended by the actions of Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King.

And they also blamed those people for causing racial conflict, saying it would all be fine if black people stayed "in their place" and weren't so "uppity" as to demand equal rights.

Racism in the US existed and was relentlessly violent (slavery, lynchings, etc.) long before Garvey and Malcolm X; they didn't cause it.

Arguing that it would best if black/gay people would just be quiet and polite and not provoke the white bigots is called "blaming the victim".

--------------------
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it." - the Talmud

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Archer4736
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Woah there, im not saying that at all, and im not saying that about gay people either.

I am totaly against any type of hatred based on what people are, not who they are.

It is true lynchings and violence against black people were rife before Garvey and Malcombe X. But i think a lot of the good work done by other campgners.

By being openly gay to a level of offensiveness I mean throwing it in peoples faces that are offended by it is just going to cause more problems than solve them. There is no way homophobia is going to disapear in the foreseable future, like racism hasnt. Its a shame, but its just not going to. But provokation dosnt help/.

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logic_grrl
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By being openly gay to a level of offensiveness I mean throwing it in peoples faces that are offended by it

But there are plenty of people who are "offended" by seeing two men hold hands in public, for example, or "offended" by anyone openly saying they are gay. They would consider that "throwing it in their faces".

Do you think people should therefore avoid holding hands or even acknowledging they are gay?

If not, what is it that you think gay people should stop doing?

Right now, the only thing you've mentioned is groping someone whn you know they're uninterested - and that's obnoxious regardless of orientation.

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"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it." - the Talmud

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origami_jane
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I mean throwing it in peoples faces

What, like when heterosexual couples talk about getting married, or can kiss or hold hands in public? Or that they can flirt with anyone they want, anywhere they want?

I think you need to separate some things here: sexual harrassment and sexual orientation. Good for you for recognizing when someone's sexual advances are unwanted.

But major, major boo on you for thinking it is "worse" when someone is gay. If you really think that queer people should have equal rights as everyone else, be prepared to treat all unwanted sexual advances equally.

There are always gonna be a handful of people who just can't read signals. And you gotta tell them up front that what they're doing is unacceptable. I mean, what do you think of straight men who hit on lesbians? I've had my butt grabbed by a fair share of men, but I don't see it as an insult to my orientation, "whyyyy don't they see I'm gay????" Because I'm just pissed that men feel that they have the right to tell me whether or not I meet their standards for attractiveness.

As for the tolerance thing, I'm not going to just sit here in this stuffy little closet and wait for the Fundagelicals to accept me. 'Cause I'd die here and end up as one of those nasty skeletons in the family closet. (ha ha) We have just as much of a right to flirt with people as straight folks do.

Some people (of all genders, all orientations) take it too far. But don't blame all of us just because you got burned. That's not cool.

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Archer4736
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Another example would be at a local catholic church after expressing the view in a newspaper recently that the priest was anti-homosexual, and that he belived that although all human rights should be respected that any homosexual would go to hell, if they don't repent. There were a number of attacks and graffiti upon the church. Now im not saying the guys right, im not a big fan of religion, but hes got the right to belive what his religion says.

Another example is the attacks upon Ruth Kelly (the British equallity minister) who is extreamly controversial as she is a member of Opus Dai (not sure on spelling there) of The Da Vinci Code Fame. Saying that due to her religious belifes she cant belive in equality. Which she whole hartedly reputes. (although in all fairness i do kind of see where that one comes from)

Many other examples could be used, but that is the general gist of what im saying, homosexual people can be as intolerant and cause more trouble for their comunity.

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origami_jane
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But, Archer, honey....

If standing up for ourselves and wanting to be equal in the eyes of everyone else is wrong, maybe that's a problem with the whole world at large.


And people need to realize that religions change. Let's talk about some things in the Bible that are expressly forbidden in the same book as the one where homosexuality is condemned, okie?

- Shaving! (Leviticus 19:27)
- Shirmp! (Lev. 11:10)
- Tattoos! (19:28)
- Working on Saturday! (19:30)
- Polyester! (19:19)
- Bunnies! (11:06)
- Hamburger! (17:10)
- Vegetable gardens! (19:19)

(I'm not even gonna breach Paul's letters. I mean, he and Hitler are working on the same level of anti-Semitism, here. Do you really want to take Hitler's word on who should or should not be hated and/or persecuted?)

See how things change over time? Homophobia is just politically motivated right now, just like abortion, etc etc etc. Because those darn homosexuals wanted to get the same treatment as everyone else, they became a threat to the patriarchy.

[ 07-03-2006, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: origami_jane ]

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Archer4736
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To be honest my own views on religion is that it is all politically motivated to keep a patriarchal and elitist state in place and maintain the status quo of governments. And i don't belive that the bible acctually does really have ago at homosexuals per say.

I understand that things change over time, but my argument is with how people go about changing things. And that some methods do provoke people.

And as much as i cringe at religion at times, and think its just wrong really i have to stand up for the fact that people who belive it is a sin to be gay,should have their liberties protected as well. Some people can't pick and choose theoir religion any more than you can pick and choose to be straight, gay or whatever.
And as long as they dont openly offend gay people, theire right to express views should be upheld...maybe?

By the way im well up for the not working on certain day thing.....sounds like they were onto a good thing there...and possibly hamburgers...not a fan.

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logic_grrl
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And as long as they dont openly offend gay people, theire right to express views should be upheld...maybe?

Except that nobody's infringing on their right to believe whatever they want, or their freedom of speech.

But what they can't do is demand that nobody else object to their views - let alone demand that other people refrain from behaving in any way they don't like.

If someone has the right to say that they think gay people will burn in hell, other people certainly have the right to say that they think that's bigoted and homophobic - just as they have the right to object if someone said something racist.

--------------------
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it." - the Talmud

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September
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And as long as they dont openly offend gay people, theire right to express views should be upheld...maybe?

But the church is openly and actively discriminating against homosexuals. The Religious Wrong in the US is very actively trying to ammend the Constitution to make homosexual marriage impossible. Are homosexuals supposed to stand by idly and let that happen because demostrating their homosexuality by protesting will only make things worse?

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Heather
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quote:
People that flirt with straight men just to get a bad reaction, which i see going on in clubs where i live all the time, annoys the hell out of me. Recently a gay man in the club after being told that i'm straight proceded to grab my genitalia, i personally wouldnbt like the fittest blonde in the room to do so while i am trying to have a chat with a friend of mine and a quiet drink (at least not without asking first:) ).

I myself have to becarefull of what i say and do in public, and understand that not everyone abrees with my politics, religion and views, so why do some gay men and women do so much to dammage the work that great people have done to make equality work.

You just summed up there the existence of most women in this world, EVERY day, EVERYWHERE we go.

Crappy sexual behaviour is limited to no one orientation, and even though stuff like this is more often done by men, it's not limited to any one gender, either. And no, it's not better when it's done to straight women by straight men: that changes NADA.

And guess what? Because unlike then men who run the religious right and the vatican, the class of women doesn't have any power? You're not asking about that, but about yet one more minority, positing that an oppressed class needs to act just so: as an oppressed people, modulating their behaviour to suit their oppressors. What you'r putting out here is basically the equivalent of saying that slaves who didn't say "Massa" are at fault for being flogged for not acting like the slaves someone else forced them to be. That's just foolishness.

I'll be frank: this is a ridiculous thing you're putting forth that IS homophobic and is full if bias.

quote:
i have to stand up for the fact that people who belive it is a sin to be gay,should have their liberties protected as well.
It's no one's liberty to be protected from seeing people be of a color, gender, creed or sexual orientation visibly which they hapen to be a bigot about. That's just ludicrous.

Really, this whole thread is ludicrous, and I think all that needs to be said on this topic already has been, because flatly, reading a good deal of this turns my stomach, especially in an area we have set up as SAFE space for those of us who are GLBT.

Imagine, if you would, coming into what you thought was a safe space as a 14-year-old worried about being gay, and seeing what the horrid title of your post was.

Not cool. Not safe. Not okay here. And certainly not written with any thought or consideration for those who are queer.

[ 07-03-2006, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Miz Scarlet ]

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Archer4736
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I appolagise for the title of my thread, and if i have offended people i also appolagise.

I belive the people who have argued against me in this thread have very good points to raise, and i thank you for replying and your insight.

What i said was not meant intentionally to offend, as i can see it has some people, but to open debate, which i think is important in the discussion of any oppressed group.

I acctually think you have changed my mind over certain issues i have talked about.

As i mentioned earlier i am not homophobic at all.

One point i would like to make in regard to Miz Scarlet, is that i did bring up earlier in the thread about sexism in the world, and racism, briefly, and agree that all intolerances are unjust.

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pockyqueen
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First of all, I would like to point out that being homophobic and being racist are two completely different things. They're both dead WRONG, but they are still different things.

Secondly... I don't know about the other points you've made in your post, but I do appreciate the question, "Do some gay people bring the homophobia on themselves?" I know a lesbian couple (I am incredibly, horribly confused about my own sexual orientation, myself -- see "am I a transsexual gay man???" for reference) and they are both amazing people. However, one of them grew up in an extremely open-minded, gay-friendly (she met her first "straight person" when she was 5) community. She is outright, furiously liberal. And she will snog her partner in public in front of people who she KNOWS are homophobes and that she KNOWS could potentially beat them up just to get a rise out of them. Her partner, who was raised conservative, very Catholic, is less thrilled by this, having been targeted for anti-homosexuality violence a few times.

Personally, this makes me very nervous for them. I don't think that same-sex couples making out is any worse than hetero PDA, but no one ever beats someone else up for a guy and a girl kissing! I am constantly scared for my gay friends who are dating. But I am also angry that they are unable to display affection in public freely like everyone else. It may not be in good taste, but they should have a right to do so without being beaten into a bloody pulp!

Now this thread is basically flaming in righteous anger, so I'm not going to contribute to that. You seem very open-minded to me, and you came here asking questions, not just giving answers, and I respect you for that. In my opinion, grabbing a man's genitals even when he tells you that he is not gay is the equivalent of a Black calling a Caucasian a "cracka" (oh look! now I'm comparing homophobia with racism! I'm such a hypocrite!) Both are practices that I personally do not approve of. Flaunting things that hurt your cause (by being disrespectful, we're only giving right-wing politicians more fodder for their hate) is never a good idea. I would prefer it if people discriminated against could just take the high road, and show close-minded people that we are no lesser than they are.

Wow! I wasn't even ranting and I've already written too much... ummmm....

oh! your last question!

I think that homophobia is primarily passed down through the generations from parents, from religious teachings, and from society. However, there is nothing worse than confirming someone's homophobia. An unpleasant encounter with something that you've already been taught to disdain is sort of like being told that wolves eat children as a little kid, being told otherwise at school, and then being attacked by wolves on a camping trip.

and, no, for the record, wolves avoid humans if they can help it. you probably already know that.

ummm. I think I had a point. I hope I made it ^^;;

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