posted
Sometimes I just think that if I would be in a same-sex relationship, some things would be far more easier. Like for sex matters. Being able to state my limits. That I'd be more comfortable also being myself or something like that. (not that I have problem with that right now or anything though) But that's just me. I think this won't necessarily be the case though. This is like me saying the grass is greener on the other side without having actually seen it, you know.
But that's something I'd like to have comments on from girls who are bi. Do you find that you relationship is easier when you're with girls or does it really have no correlation, it matters mostly on the person herself not her gender. Or maybe both equals because they both have advantages and inconvenients ?
posted
I got cornered into a very uncomfortable conversation once, all with heterosexual people (and when some of them were under stress because they were about to get married, and just clearly not realizing they were putting said stress on other people, but these things happen).
The gist of the conversation was this: I was asked, given I've always dated people of all sexes and genders, why, if given a choice -- in other words, if I was equally attracted to, equally compatible with, etc. this man and this woman -- I would generally choose women.
To which my answer was that all other things equal, when given the option, I'd simply rather not have to bother with all of the opposite-sex B.S. that tends to go along with opposite sex relationships, largely because of culture and people's conditioning, and which, even when two people really work hard to counter, is often still there, and still involves effort you've got to expend on it, other people's assumptions and expectations you have to counter -- for instance, meeting new people and having them ask if I'm someone's wife, per my own gender identity and politcs, makes my stomach turn, etc..
(They didn't like that answer, btw, and got really defensive about it: which I suppose is unsurprising in a situation where I, as a bisexual person, even have options they as stright people don't.)
But, there's my truth, anyway. Now, to me, that doesn't mean and hasn't meant being more or less able to state limits and boundaries. I've never experienced that doing that was, unilaterally, more or less easy with men or with women. I've found that apsects of that are different between men and women sometimes, but not in some quantitative way: it has tended to be pretty individual for me. I'd say, looking over my dating and relationship history, it's pretty equal per how many men and how many women I've been with who have had very real problems respecting other people's limits and boundaries, or expressing their own.
If you want a good example for yourself, of how sometimes it's not easier for women together, understand that, for instance, there is a HUGE longstanding problem in the lesbian community with practicing and negotiating safer sex. Some of that is because the risks are so much lesser, women can take it for granted. But some of it is a whole pile of other conditioned stuff that has nothing to do with that, and is just plain outer limits. Know, too, that emotional abuse in same-sex relationships happens at a virtually identical rate of that in opposite-sex relationships: clearly, same-sex isn't an easy answer per limits and boundaries for plenty of people.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63699 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Edited because Heather's answer is so much better.
But back to your questioning your own sexuality, cool... what "weird thought" have you had? Do you want to talk about this? (I see you later edited it out but wanted to ask anyway?)
posted
Wow, I didn't expect an answer from you Heather. I was hoping to get one from you also of course but just didn't dare asking you particularly in my post. Thanks !
I was really surprised though when I read that Heather, I didn't know it could be that way(especially about the respect of sex limits) :
quote: I'd say, looking over my dating and relationship history, it's pretty equal per how many men and how many women I've been with who have had very real problems respecting other people's limits and boundaries, or expressing their own.
posted
Yeah Ecofem. I could talk about this although it's a little bit uncomfortable doing so. Everyone's reading that but I'll do it. You willing to be there to help me figure some things out ?
posted
Yes, absolutely-- if you're comfortable with it, that is. But I wouldn't worry, because pretty much everyone's questioned their sexual orientation at some point; for most of us, it's a lifelong process. Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
When I say limits and boundaries, I'm speaking generally, not per sex expressly.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63699 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I'm just a little late on this hey ? That's kind of weird that I'm questionning this at 19 is it ? That's reading stuff here on the boards about queer relationships and all that made me question this. Before that, I have to say I was not really comfortable around queer people. Maybe that comes from high school where I had a friend who were bi and she had such a reputation and were not really well perceived among other classmates. This was the only contact I had with a bisexual person so that doesn't leave me that much great memories about queer people you know. But now, it's different now that I've read about it more.
posted
Those weird thoughts I said I had, it's not really weird toughts. It's more me questionning whether or not I'm bi or straight. You know sometimes you are in a situation and you ask yourself whether or not this could mean you're bi. That's what happens right now with me. I used to have toughts like that during before that year also but this was just something I also ignored and didn't want to think about because I really was not comfortable discussing those and didn't really have anyone I could really discuss this too also.
I'm really not sure I'm bi so I'd like to know how you can find this out ?
posted
Is it about questiong whether you're bi or stright though, or what you WISHED you were?
In other words, are you feeling real attraction -- physical, emotional -- ot other women, or are you simply not happy with the opposite-sex relationship dynamics you've dealt with?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63699 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
To be frank Heather, to answer your first question that's about both.
The thing though is I don't know if I'm really feeling physical and emotional attraction to women. That's not easy to say. So that's why I needed a little bit of guidance. Isn't there out there some questions lists I could answer that would tell me if I'm bi or not ? I don't think it works like that but that would be easier that way no ?
How can you tell whether or not you are bi ? I could tell you what might make me think I'm bi but I think this is better that way.
Do you think if I find it would be weird being with another girl and kissing her that makes me an heterosexual person or is the possibility of being bi is still there ?
posted
The thing though is I don't know if I'm really feeling physical and emotional attraction to women. That's not easy to say.
...honestly... if you flat-out had no heterosexual tendancies whatsoever, such questions later in life would not be unprecedented. A lot of exclusively-nonheterosexual people spent much of their life living a functionally heterosexual life, just because it was expected, when they had absolutely no tendancies in that direction... and usually, the reaction to "outside one's orientation" isn't so much revulsion or anything as it is bored indifference.
Isn't there out there some questions lists I could answer that would tell me if I'm bi or not?
I'm afraid it's not always that easy. I mean, sure, there's the easy question list - "are you ravenously attracted in body, mind, and spirit to persons of both sexes," but generally by the time someone's got an answer to that question, they have a pretty good idea...
...you might not want to rule out other options, though... not having a physical or emotional attraction to people of the opposite sex could imply homosexuality, but it could also imply aesexuality... or for that matter, it could just imply that you're a plain-vanilla heterosexual person who's a bit more selective than the alleged sex-crazed role models you've been given for your gender - or a host of other options.
Unfortunately, no one can answer these questions for you. Only you are in a position to discover what attracts you. Sorry that doesn't make it easier...
Posts: 54 | From: Cyberspace | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Hey cool, I'm here but I'm just about to go to sleep-- it's 1:25am here-- sorry to have left you hanging, but I got what ended up being a two hour phone call. I read through the posts, will think about an answer tonight, and will reply tomorrow. Hope you have a good evening!
Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I'm still here, it's simply that I'm not really sure what the situation is with you right now, especially since until...well, today....all the strong attractions you've had and discussed here have been to men.
Also, I'm kinda wondering what's going on per this with the context of you asking just earlier about having intercourse with your current boyfriend.
(In other words, I'm sitting over here asking myself, "So, who's the girl she likes?")
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63699 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I am not in love with a girl in particular Heather. :) I am still deeply in love with my current boyfriend.
It's just something I've been wondering about until now but that I just didn't really take the time to think about. Understand ? Like let's say there are days when I think about what it would be like being with a girl instead of a boy ? Other days when I may find a girl beautiful and I'm wondering if I'm bi. Things like that. Those are examples.
posted
Finding a person aesthetically beacutiful, however, really isn't the same thing as finding them sexually attractive, or wanting to be intimate with them, sexually, emotionally. I mean, I think that Picasso's paintings are insanely beautiful, but I don't want to have sex with them.
So honestly, if no girl at this point has just seriously revved your engine -- like, she walks buy, you get the same sort of feeling you do when a guy you think is cute as the dicken walks by -- then it seems to me that you're likely dealing more with an intellectual curiousity than with orientation questioning or bisexuality.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63699 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Okay. That might be the case. But what if I'm sometimes thinking about how it might be let's say to have sex with a women (not one in particular though). What if I'm kinda curious about trying it ? Is it still just a sexual curiousity we're talking about or more ?
posted
If you've yet to ever see a woman, at all, to whom you feel sexually attracted, and instead this is this whole abstract bit about women as a group, and how you think sex with women might be intrinsically different than sex with men (hint: for the most part, if you're attracted to both women and men, it's really not much different than sex is different with this one partner or that one per their different personalities, dynamics, body types, etc.), again, I'm not seeing bisexuality here.
Think about it this way: if you, at your age, had yet to ever feel any attraction to a given guy, would you feel heterosexual (setting aside cultural dictates)? or would you wonder if, since you'd never had that attraction, you were not? See what I'm saying?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63699 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I don't even think it has to be that cut and dried.
Really, the way most people find out about their orientation is by over time, seeing the patterns in who they find attractive, want to puruse intimate relationships with.
As jay_d mentioned, there's always the static of cultural imperatives that can cloud things some -- if any of us were reared or are made to feel that in any way, a given gender or class of people is who we are SUPPOSED to be attracted to, then that is likely to be of some influence, obviously. But, over time (especially knowing about those mandates and trying to cultivate some self-awareness separate from them), we see who we are and are not attracted to, who does and doesn't give us the feelings we recognize as sexual and/or romantic.
None of these questions ever have to be answered right now: it's not like we need to list an orientation ot get a driver's license. If and when you ever do find yourself attracted to women -- not just curious about the dynamics of lesbianism and how they work for people, etc. -- then it's a little more sound to do the big "Hmm," per your orientation.
If you listen to a lot of people's coming out stories over time -- or just stories about orientation, period -- you'll find that a common thread isn't "I found I wanted to have sex with all women," or what not, but "I was in love with HER, who knows how I feel about anyone else right now." If we understand that sexuality is fluid by nature -- which I know you do -- and understand that our sexual and intimate relationships involve a myriad of factors, not just a partner's sex or gender, then you can see how orientation tends to be experiential and interpersonal rather than intellectual or about a sort of social curiousity.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63699 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I don't want to have sex with all women Heather ! It's just an example I know. I really understand your point. It makes total sense to me now. It's really great to be able to have conversations like that here. That's really interesting.
posted
Really, to make that point more clear, "all" should have read "any."
(Though even that gets murky.)
Regardless, I wasn't suggesting you did, but rather, that for most women who do have sexual and romantic interest in other women, those feelings often tend to start out more specifically than general.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me • Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63699 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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posted
OK, back for a longer response. I’m going to go with an answer that jumps around and talks about my own personal experience (not again!), so it could be totally not what you’re looking for, but here it goes:
I see you wrote about getting a rather negative view of bisexuality while in high school due to the restrictive environment. When I started high school almost 10 years ago in a suburban-urban area, only two people of 2,500 very super openly gay. But a lot more people were not “straight” and I remember really openly (and loudly, sheesh!) talking about it with friends. It wasn’t about the environment being homophobic, but that it seemed you could just be “gay” or “straight” and nothing in between. (I blame this on misinformation from radio programs like Loveline, ugh!) I was definitely open to the possibility of not being straight, but because it seemed either/or, heterosexual or homosexual, I figured I’d be heterosexual because I was so into guys.
But being better informed, having analyzed things, and having gotten more experience in general, I now do consider myself bisexual, be it more involved with men out of “convenience” and sheer possibilities in numbers. It’s taken a few years to get to this point, from freaking out because I just wanted to “know” what the hell I was to realizing sexuality is fluid and just to see who comes along.
There was a time right after high school that I was not interested in sexual/romantic relationships with men after some bad experiences. Being also attracted to women, I had the chance to focus on this option. (Said as not to perpetuate the cliché of “turning to women after bad experiences with men” or something, this interest was already there.) I realized some things pretty quickly, such as that relationships with women can be just as complicated, that communication issues can be there and that women can also be manipulative and hurtful as men. Not to dis women at all(!), just to show how I realized relationships with women are no panacea to relationship ills, not something to romanticize, something I had sort of done at first.
(I’ll throw this out, because while it’s sort of self-evident, I didn’t recognize it at first: being attracted to women isn’t about not being attracted to men (or grossed out by penises, etc.) but about being attracted to women.)
The bottom line is: Questioning and thinking about our sexual orientation and sexuality is a lifelong process, but I wonder if it coming up now as a sign that you’re not feeling totally comfortable with the relationship you’re currently in? Like how I was dating someone a few months ago: we made out and it seemed ok but not totally right, and afterwards I couldn’t get an old crush out of my head. It was like a “hey! Time out” gut feeling that was worth listening to. We stopped going out and I’m so glad because I recognized other annoying details I didn’t see at the time but made me not feeling completely comfortable with it.
You’ve got a really full plate right now, as Heather already mentioned. There are times in our lives when we’re so busy with so much, we don’t really have the time or energy for relationships. Or that we’re so boggled down with various stresses making it hard to analyze and be active in our romantic/sexual lives. Taking a step back from all relationship/sex-related stuff for awhile, not thinking about orientation, and just really focusing on academics, work, friendships, etc. could be a really good step. There have been times that I just wasn’t emotionally ready for relationships, something friends told me but I thought was silly—until I took that break. Have you talked about any of this with friends-- what have they said?
It’s totally up to you, but after seeing your various posts (boyfriend-sex stress, questioning your orientation, etc.), I can relate to where you’re at and think, “wow, it’s really, really hard to deal with it all at once. Do you think you could even take a day or weekend trip away somewhere so you could get away from your current situation for a breather?
OK, this got sort of long and off topic, but I think everything sort of relates to one another. Time for me to get back to that paper (with my migraine and all, ugh!) I was working on. I’m really interested in your reply to all of this; hope it sort of covers what you were looking for.
Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Thanks for your post Ecofem. Really interesting to hear your experience on all of this.
As for what you were wondering, if I could take a break from my boyfriend to think about all of this, I could but I don't see it as really necessary right now. I just find that there's no rush in discovering whether or not I'm bi right now and plus, I know I am 100 % in love with my boyfriend right now, so I am not rethinking my relationship with him right now at all. So why take a break if I know this is the right thing to do for me.
Also, I am on break right now. Got another one week of break, so I'm not dealing with too much all at one right now.
But I know what you mean though. If I ever find myself doubting I might be bi given an experience I have (such as Heather listed), I'll come and will be willing to talk more about it okay ?
As for the break, I didn't mean it so much as "toss the boyfriend aside and find the nearest female dating possibility" ;-) as much as either take a break from the relationship (which you don't want to do considering your feelings for your boyfriend, which is totally understandable) or just take a step back for a few days or so (which you're getting by being on an academic break still.)
Yeah, definitely come back to continue talking about it when you want. I know the self-questioning can pop up at random times and be really important, even if it's more theoretical than concrete at those times. (Actually, I think it's a lot harder when it's more theoretical because it's like all the mixed thoughts at once without much grounding for a pause to breath!)
Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Don't know if you still care about the hetero vs homo-relationship thing, but I'll just toss out my 2 cents.
Now this is a bit different, though, since I'm the wierd lesbian who tends to end up with guys. But I have dated people of both genders and in this hypothetical scenario where I've got the choice between a man and a woman I am equally attracted to, I would most likely chose the man.
The explanation for this is a bit convoluted, but has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to state and uphold my limits. I can do this easily with both males and females, though I have to say I do have a whole lot less limits in a same-sex relationship. But while my attractions to males are very very rare and are never there from the start (as in, they tend to develop over time), and while there is a lot of negotiation involved, I actually feel more comfortable with a male because, at least in my (admittedly limited) experience, same-sex-relationships are inherently political and the feeling that I constantly have to explain and excuse (or hide) my relationship adds an element of pressure and difficulty that I am not prepared to deal with at this point.
So if I had that choice, even if it makes me feel like a hypocrite at times (and like a huge wuss, in some ways), I'm inclined to pick the guy.
As for how to know whether or not you're bi? I think that if you're not feeling any actual attraction to a female, then this question is not only very theoretical and therefore nigh on impossible to answer, it's also pretty much moot. It could be interesting to think about, but if you have no definite proof one way or another, there is really no way to know. If you've never been attracted to a female before, that might absolutely change at some point in the future. But it might also not change. And until it does, you won't know.
-------------------- -joey Scarleteen Volunteer
"The question is not who will let me, but who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand Posts: 8455 | From: Cologne, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005
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Have you talked about any of this with friends-- what have they said?
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