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I found this website, i dunno whether you can help or not but no harm in trying I dont know how to say this either, itll proberly come out sounding crap so if you can understand it woo my lady gave birth to our daughter 6 months ago shes beautiful and i love her...i think....i dunno i really dont know and i feel awful every time i look at her i dont think i feel any thing...i sound horrible i know but i dont think i can do this any more i dont think i ever could i didnt plan on becoming a dad so young. Im not gonna do the hole sob story saying that i dont know why she got pregnant i know...i know we should of taken precautions but we didnt we where just stupid thinking it would never happen that she wouldnt get pregnant...but she did and now NOW i just feel like im totally ******* up the sleepless nights the constant crying the fact her entire life depends on me and my lady, i sound stupid i know if i didnt want a baby shouldnt of had one, but shit happens every one says how beautiful and how lucky we are that i am i dont feel lucky i feel like im letting every one down that im not helping my daughter or my lady im young im stupid and i cant do this parenting shit what can i give a little girl she doesnt need me at all im getting to the point on just giving up on the whole thing the whole family thing the whole baby thing the whole life thing i wouldnt babble all this shit on here but i have no idea what else to do thanks for listening Harvey
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Hi Harvey. (By the way, if you are using your full name as your screenname, we ask that you change it to protect your privacy as this can be pulled up on google searches. You can change your screenname by going to your profile. Thanks!)
Parenting can be really difficult, and more so when you aren't ready for it. Honestly, though, I'm not sure anyone is really "ready" for it, even if it's something they've been planning and reading books on. So you aren't alone in feeling so unprepared. In fact, I'm willing to bet your partner is feeling pretty overwhelmed herself. Have the two of you talked about how you are feeling? Also, what have the two of you decided in terms of parenting and any relationship between the two of you?
It does sound like this is a pretty rough time for you, as a big change like parenting can be. Do you have any friends or family, especially those who have kids of their own, that you can talk to about your fears? People you can rely on for some childcare when you and your partner need a break or a night out? If you don't, or if you feel you need a little more support right now, we'd be glad to look up some sources in your area. One thing you may find helpful is going to a support group for new fathers. If you are interested in that, I found this meetup group for fathers in North London. This site also lists some numbers in the UK that you can call to find out more resources in your area for parents.
You talk about not feeling anything when you look at your daughter. Really, I think our society tends to push the idea that parents instantly bond with their children the moment they are born and if you don't then there's something wrong with you. That, however, is BS. If you talk to real-life parents, not the ones who are trying to keep up the Hallmark image, you'll find that a lot of them were in the same place as you for a while. It's confusing, it's scary, it's intimidating, but it does get better. You've made an incredibly brave step coming here and opening up about this. If you want to talk some more here, or if you would like us to help you in locating some resources, don't hesitate to ask.
-------------------- Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.--Monty Python and the Holy Grail Posts: 2726 | From: North America | Registered: Apr 2007
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We dont talk we seriously dont talk when we do we just argue about every thing every ******* thing even things that arent important we argue about! She looks after the baby i try and advoid going home i work late i go and see my family i know i sound awful but i know if i go back we'll eng up arguing, its like are relationship is totally fucked if we're not arguing we're not talking its horrible! i have my family she has hers my mum looks after my daughter from time to time, i totally feel like im ******* this shit up even if people do feel the same as me they must feel something for their children i sound really bad but sometimes i just hate her!
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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First off, let me send some big hugs your way. It's hard being a new parent (no matter what your age) and even more so when you're young (and hadn't planned on things being this way). I don't know that I have all of the answers for you, but maybe we can help sort out some of how you are feeling and come up with some things to do.
One of the things that many parenting books talk about is how after a baby is born, people will "mourn" the loss of their old life. Things are never going to be the same again, and that can be hard and it hurts. One of the worst things you can do is deny this or try to pretend that it's no big deal. It is a big deal and it's okay for you to acknowledge that and take some time to deal with it.
It's also okay if you're not feeling completely warm and fuzzy about your little one. Not everybody falls in love with them right away. Heck, not everybody even likes kids. If you are feeling like you might be a danger to her (like you feel so negatively that you are thinking about doing something that might harm her), then you need to tell someone so that they can help. If you're not to that point, then just give it some time, you may find that you come around as she gets bigger and can interact more.
Is there someone who can help you and your partner talk? A relative, clergy member, or even seeking out counseling? I've got to be honest, it doesn't sound like this is a healthy situation for either of you. Constantly arguing (especially around your daughter) is not good. And avoiding the situation is not going to be helpful in the long run.
It also may be wise to consider whether this is going to be a workable relationship. It is not fair to you, your partner, or your daughter to continue a situation that is not healthy. Have you talked with your partner about what part each of you plan to play in your daughter's life?
-------------------- Sarah Liz Posts: 7313 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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Hey i'm a teenage mom and i certaintly did not plan on having a baby this young either. So I kinda know what your going through. I'm not sure how much different it is on the father, but i know for a fact that having a kid changes your life. Maybe your feeling this way towards you daughter because you feel that by her birth your limited to many things you used to be able to do. Also you may feel like you "hate" her sometimes because you regret everything that got you in this position of being a parent. But remember it's not her fault. She needs you. Just try to be calm with the mother because I know what she's going through and she might be feeling the same things you are. Being a parent is an enormous responsibility so dont give up. Everything will eventually work out for you and your daughter
-------------------- ignorance is one of the most dangerous things in our society. Posts: 17 | From: texas | Registered: Feb 2009
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I wouldnt do any thing to hurt her she hasnt done any thing to me. i wouldnt think twice about ******* myself over. i dont mean to argue with my lady but every ******* thing she does really really annoys me i love her dont get me wrong wrong i love her alot but annoys me at the same time i cant afford counseling neither do i have time for it i sound like im making excuses but if im not with the baby im at work if im not doing either of them im out with my friends im not going out and leaving my lady cause im a selfish little shit i go out before i go totally mad
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Harvey: I'd suggest talking to someone at an NHS office to see if family counseling may be available to you at no cost, which it very well might, particularly for young parents. You may also be able to access parenting classes so that you can feel better equipped to do this.
One thing that counseling can do beyond offering you support is help you two figure out how to deal with your relationship, and what is going to be best for the two of you. It may be that living together isn't best, or trying to sustain a love relationship, rather than a relationship of platonic co-parents, isn't best. You two do have options, but it sounds like you're going to need help from a third-party to explore them if all your communication has broken down as it appears to have at this point.
Can I ask what your relationship was like before the pregnancy? Did it feel like something good for both of you, that made you each happy, then?
I hear you when you say you don't have the time, but at the same time, if we have a situation that is bad for us, and we want to see some change, we've got to do things to try and foster that change. And an hour a week IS something anyone can manage, it really is. Maybe that's one night a week you don't go out with friends, then.
In other words, clearly, you are very unhappy with this situation, and clearly, you want things to change. Just walking away from your partner and your kid is certainly one option, but it's probably one that will only change so much, particularly in terms of how you feel about yourself. You also do have the needs of a kid to think about, and how having a parent abandon them tends to impact a child. You say she doesn't need you, but when we see how children and adults do who were abandoned by parents, it tends to be pretty obvious they did, in fact, need those parents.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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Before the pregnancy it was good...it was great it wasnt forced we could be together we could be apart i trusted her she trusted me. face to face counseling the idea alone stresses me out! this is hard enough people judging me and sitting down face to face with someone telling me they understand when to me it seems they clearly dont their paid to say it! i know how hard it is! my dad left my mum and since then theres been a different man ever since i wouldnt want to leave ive stuck at this for months and months i know im not helping my self at all and not helping any one else in helping me but it seems to me that things cant get any worse my lady judges me my daughter judges me doctors judge me i might as well have looser branded on my ******* head
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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A counselors job isn't to judge. In fact, one of the big parts of being a counselor is accessing a skillset we're supposed to have where we don't do that like the average guy on the street. I know that it can be intimidating.
But too? Counselors don't tend to choose that line of work just because it results in a paycheck, but because it is a kind of work they feel drawn to do because they like to help people in need. Yes, they will often get paid, but everyone needs a roof over their head and to eat, and those needs don't mean someone's motives aren't good. Think about it this way: someone who decides to be a painter may have people purchase their paintings, but that probably isn't why they do what they do. They paint because it's where their talent and passion is.
So, why not TRY counseling with someone before deciding how it's going to go based on....well, a lot of uninformed assumptions?
Too, look again at what others have said here, and do bear in mind that you are hardly the first new parent who has felt like you are feeling. People who work with families know this.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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I did counseling when i was 15 in school she opened old wounds and went round and round in circles about things im not trying to undermind the job even if i sound like i do which im sorry about but...its like...i dont know i feel like i go round and round in circles people try and help and i end up in the same ******* position i was in, in the first doctors put me on anti depressants to help the councle give me and Maddy a home to help my mum gave Maddy baby shit to help things dont help i dunno maybe its just something wrong with me i cant cope with old wounds getting opened up Maddy depends on me and if i break then shes fucked aswell
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Well, one thing to know about dealing with old wounds is that in order TO grow and change and move past them -- and how they may be influencing us now -- we generally DO have to reopen them and work through them. And if we try and avoid really digging into that stuff, then yeah, we aren't likely to make a lot of progress, and will tend to stay stuck.
I know it's painful to do that (and believe me, I do: been there myself), but it is what it is. Too? I'm of the mind that that's not going to break us: we're much more likely to break by NOT dealing with things than by dealing with them.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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So the only way round this is counseling? im going to sound sad but it really scares me i know my past is ******* up my future and my life now but it fucked me over so much going back into is hard i know Maddy and my daughter dont deserve all the shit in my past being heaped on them no im not happy but i dont want to do what my dad did to me! i am just going round in brutally painful circles
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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It may or may not be, but it's certainly one sound place to start trying. Given how big the communication breakdown has been between you and your partner, it does sound to me like you ARE going to need SOME kind of mediator if you're going to get back to better communication.
Sometimes, the places that scare us are important for us to go to. But if you try counseling and it isn't right for you, you certainly can try and find a different kind of objective mediator: a neutral friend or family member, a clergyperson, a doctor, what have you.
And since you express keeping in painful circles, I'd say it seems clear it's time to step outside your comfort zone in some way to break those patterns.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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Clergy person??? what?? breaking out my comfort zone isnt moving in and having a baby with someone breaking out my comfort zone enough! im sorry having a pop at every one else isnt helping me in the slightest i know i know your listening to what im saying and i know i need to drop my gard to let people help me and i dont want to sound like a stupid kid that wont accept any thing that people say and refuse to listen but...i dunno i know if i listen and accept what people say i know they'll be right (if that made sense) i know things arent right with Maddy far from right she dont trust me at all we fight and argue all the time she thinks im sleeping with everyone i know what the best thing to do is i know what people are going to say a counseler is going to say what every one is going to say but i still love Maddy and i dont want to leave her i know im babbling now aswell
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Not knowing much about you, I can't possibly know what your life is like, or if you are someone who goes to a church or has some other spiritual tradition. For people who do, a clergyperson or spiritual leader or teacher is often a good person for help.
I hear what sounds like you feeling pretty angry at some of the things we have said or suggested, but I hope you realize that when you ask for help, all we can do is offer out what we know has helped others.
For sure, becoming a parent likely did move you out of your comfort zone. However, doing those things in and of themselves likely isn't going to help you grow if you aren't growing in them, aren't supported with them, and have approached them in a crisis-state (which is understandable). It also isn't likely to help you much if you are coming to those things without adapting -- of course, that goes both ways, that's about your partner as well, not just you.
If you knew, though, what a counselor was going to say, one supposes you would also then know the kinds of changes you might need to try and make together, and I'm not hearing that you do. I think that your fears about counseling and you two getting help (not a house or baby items, but help) are driving that attitude.
But if you want, we can certainly talk about what you think a counselor would suggest and do with the two of you and then, why you aren't able to do those things?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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they would more than likely say we shouldnt be together...ok your right i dont know, i dont know what they would say or do it just seems easier to walk away i dont want to but i cant go into how much of a selfish bastard my dad was and killed him self and how my mum doesnt even accept that it was because of me and how im turning into my dad ruining my daughters life all i want is to be a dad and i cant do that and yes im depressed and yes im pissed off and angry but cant you see why? im not trying to go against every thing you say im not trying to share my most in depth and painful secrets with people i dont know especaily when im clearly not worth all it i dont mean to be a bastard and annoying but but its defence i know people try to help i know you try and help and im sorry
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Perhaps it would be helpful if I told you what I would do/say if I were in the room with you as your mediator? It may or may not be any given counselor's approach, but I'd say it'd be common enough.
I'd personally start by asking each of you how you are feeling right now, how your relationship and lives are going, what you see as what's good right now and what is problematic. If I wad told you were fighting a lot, I'd start by asking what you are most frequently fighting about, how those conversations seem to go, and how you both feel about them.
I'd ask what it is each of you really wants right now, out of your relationship, out of your lives. I'd ask if you are both invested in this relationship together, and what kind of relationship you want. In other words, right now, is your bond mostly about your child, are we looking more at co-parenting, or is it also about you two, separate from your child: do you still want a love relationship together or not?
I'd probably also start by picking one area of conflict the two of you have and walking you through a conversation about it. If you started to argue or fight, I'd step in, get you both to step back, and try teaching you both some tools for better communication, then have you try them out in my office to work on that conflict.
Given what you have shared here about your family history, I'd ask you to talk more about that, both for yourself, and so that your partner could get a better sense of how HUGE a struggle it has to be for you right now to be trying to parent unprepared, trying to have a family unprepared, and to feel like bolting but have so much guilt and worry about becoming just like your father who hurt you so deeply: your partner realizing that that's a huge issue, and likely a huge part of your challenges in this, would be really important to me.
Those are just some starting points, some things to give you an idea of how a counselor might work. I'd say it's highly unlikely you're going to walk in and have a counselor say a couple shouldn't be together. In fact, overall, counselors tend to ask far more questions than make judgments or edicts like that. And a family counselor saying that on visit one, rather than after months of seeing how you two are together and if you're progressing, would be nigh unto impossible.
Do those things sound like your expectations of counseling? If so, and you feel a resistance to any of them, why do you think you have that resistance?
Perhaps it's also worth asking how, if not with the help of another person, YOU see ways to work through this? What do you feel like your best options are?
For the record, I absolutely see why you're pissed off and angry: I said what I did, though, to try and make sure you recognize that directing that in any way at someone trying to help you who you have asked for help both isn't productive, and also really isn't appropriate. If, when you're asking someone for help, you swear at them, get very angry with them, there's both not going to be a lot we can do, and we're also going to be inclined to at some point say we can't help because we don't want to be barked at, which is a reasonable limit.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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no not really no the only thing im against is talking about my dad its not like im jumping though hoops to talk about it but i cant...if i do i either end up getting totally smashed or i just flip i dont understand what you say by saying "perhaps its also woth asking your self how" how what And im sorry i dont mean to be so brash and rude and swear all the time i know your trying to help
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Okay, so if you're not yet at the point where you feel able to talk about your Dad -- which is understandable, especially with someone brand-new to you -- then you get to walk into counseling with that limit, with saying, "There is one thing I don't feel able to talk about yet, and that's my Dad," and that should be respected.
Mind, eventually? You probably ARE going to need to talk through that, especially since my guess is it's not a minor factor in all of this, and probably a good part of WHY you are having such a tough time managing parenting. BUT! You don't have to do so before you have established trust with someone first, and a good counselor is going to understand that and not want to push you into talking about it before you have that trust and some more tools to manage your feelings in general.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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But if it is one of or the mane reason for all this im going to have to talk about it...urghh i just want to be a dad to my daughter i wanna look at her and not hate her its not fair on her that i inflict on her what i feel about my dad its not her fault its got nothing to do with her at all i know...or i hope i couldnt hurt my daughter as much as he hurt me
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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I'd say it's very likely a factor, but I highly doubt it's the primary reason for everything going on right now. My guess is the primary reason is that you're 18 (right?), which is exceptionally young to be a parent and even to live with a partner who is the mother of your child. It likely has a lot to do with being thrown into something VERY big you had no preparation or planning for.
It may also have to do with how good your economic resources are, how good your relationship with this woman really was beforehand (and how right it was per being a relationship this serious and daily) -- it sounds to me like you two may not have yet learned how to communicate well, period, before now -- what kinds of other supports you two should have, but don't, and a whole lot of others things including the mere the fact that parenting, period, is really freaking stressful.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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yeah im 18 I know i come across arrogant and rude and like im self absorbed i mean who cant bond with their child but i do my best honestly i do as hard as that might be to believe people who help me or try i hate talking about my dad...i hate it i hate him and i mean it i was never good enough for him!!! this is what i mean old wounds! how can he say he loved me he lied!! even though ive messed this up so much i can never hurt her as much can i? or am i just telling my self this to make myself feel better?
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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You ask who can't bond with their child, but as was already mentioned here, plenty of people face challenges with that. And I'd note that when you aren't the one who was pregnant and gave birth or who nursed their kid, it's an extra challenge: you don't have the benefit of some body chemistry that helps with that.
I also think that the way you are talking about yourself says more about how YOU think of yourself than how I or anyone else does.
I haven't talked with you about your Dad because you've expressed that you don't want to talk about him. But if you'd like to, we can certainly do that. And if you want to, I feel like the only way I can do that is if you can basically write out your story when it comes to him so we have a sound place to start and I understand what you are referencing when you say things like that he lied to you and didn't find you to be good enough.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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My dad and mum would fight all the time about every thing he had an affair years ago years and years ago! my mum and dad got back together but my mum never really trusted him she would lie to him about how she was feeling and say to him to do what he wanted. my dad wasnt stupid but they didnt talk about it, it got to the point when my dad would avoid my mum, me and my brother and sister didnt know whether we where coming or going one minute its my dad moving out the next hes moved back in the next my mums moved out every day when we got home from school it would be another drama my dad wouldnt be in we'd wait and wait and wait for him to come home and eventualy he'd come of smashed this happened for months my mum would accuse him of every thing she would follow him to see if he went where he said he went it was hard enough on me and my brother but my little sister was 12! their relationship was messing up my life my brothers life my sisters life we where young we where kids what where we meant to say when people asked "Oh nothings wrong just my dad is a boozer, my mum is insecure and paranoid i listen to my mum cry her self to sleep every night when my dads god knows where" a year later things seemed to get better my mum telled us she was pregnant, my dad seem to sort it out got help for the drinking went back to work him and my mum went into counselling together to sort out their "differences" My brother got into Uni i met Maddy my sister was happy at school WHOA things where almost perfect, yeah my family is almost cursed with bad luck as my mum miscarried and BAM i thought things would go back to how they where...but no my dad stayed away from the drink stood by my mum i knew it was hard for them but they seemed ok well as ok as things could be. Maddy told me she was pregnant about a month later timing couldnt be worse i didnt want to turn my back on her and when she decided she was going to keep Emily the only thing i was worried about was telling my mum and dad. When i went to tell my mum she knew there was something wrong she says its mother intuition...ok then but she was happy about it she said i was "blessed" and that she was looking forward to being a grandparent. one down one to go when i told my dad he said he wasnt proud of me because i was only 17 but he loved me and because of that he would stand by me...but he didnt he went funny with me like fake and forced he would tell me he loved me all the time and how Maddy would be welcomed to the family. i didnt think much of it i thought it was stress of work and my sister was being...well a teenaged girl but my mum told me he was going out and getting back late again he came round our flat drunk of his face laughing then crying then normall this went on for about a month and then he stopped talking to me i was sitting in my mums house with maddy and he threw her out saying that she wasnt welcome, i told him i hated him and that he would have nothing to do with the baby or maddy or me, my sister moved in with me and Maddy because she said he was loosing the plot... i should of relised then things wherent normall for a growen man but i didnt i was just so pissed with him because of how he treated Maddy my sister had been living there a week and a half and my mum called up late i thought it was one of my friends messing around but she told us to come home she when we got back my older brother and his girlfriend where there my mum read out this note thing from my dad which was saying how he was feeling and how he never meant to hurt any one but he couldnt cope he wasnt dad material however he loved us all so very much... i didnt understand what was going on untill my mum said he had taken some sort of overdoes on some drugs or something i went to the funeral but i didnt cry how can i grieve for someone that treated us so badly and killed him self because he was thinking of him self i feel like its my fault if Maddy hadnt gotten pregnant it wouldnt of knocked him off so much he and my mum lost a child and i was thinking of myself and my girlfriend my mum wont listen when i say this she says he loved me but how can he!! thats my story
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Harvey, I have just read all of this, but have to run and errand and also want to think on this for a while.
But since I won't respond to this for a little bit, I did want to be sure to say two things to you.
For starters, thank you for trusting me with your story, to hold your story. Second, you don't probably need for me to tell you that that is a LOT for someone to grow up with and deal with, and a LOT for you to have had culminate the way it did at this particular time in your life. I also very much understand -- including in my own life, I had someone very important to me commit suicide when I was younger -- how easy it is to blame ourselves, and how incredibly hard it is to live through.
I'll add more in a little while, but just wanted to be sure you knew that you were heard until I can.
Are you feeling okay having written this out?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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I'm back, and have some thoughts with you about this. However, I was also talking to someone close to me about this thread, and I thought he had some really, really great things to say about all of this. He also is someone who very much understands really getting ripped off by a father.
So, I'm having him register right now and he'll be around shortly. I can add my thoughts and feelings on this later as well.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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Harvey: Happened to read your posts and am very touched by all the things you are dealing with and impresssed that you are hanging in there with all this, it is tough to be vulnerable but one of the odd things about being a man is that we are stronger when we admit our vulnerabilities and work through them. I feel what you are going through and thought I might be able to add some perspective on some of the things you are dealing with.
First lets deal with being a father. You are one now, nuff said. You have a choice on what kind of father you want to be. I know it doesnt feel like it right now but you do. Everything you do from this point on in your life is a choice. I know it doesnt feel like a choice, you didnt have a choice in all the **** your had to deal with as a kid growing up, that is a given. But you have a choice in how you deal with your family now. Lets look at few of your options: you could choose to run away and abandon the mother of your child and your daughter, you can choose to hang around, get drunk and continue fighting over and over again creating a really unhealthy environment for yourself and your family, or you can choose to take this on fully and commit to growing and becoming the father you want to be. Sure there are a lot of other choices but lets stick with those.
I am guessing you dont want to do the first two, but that you have very little idea on how to get to the last option.
So lets talk about fathers. A lot of men, who where hurt by their dad, go off in life to promising to "never be like my dad", in doing that they cut off dealing with how their fathers really acted and the issues and feelings around their father. They strive so hard to not be like their dad that they end up doing and acting exactly what their dad did. Until we own how we are like our fathers, and believe you me I NEVER wanted to be like my father, but its not until we can look at what we learned from the fathers we had and know how we are like them we can never figure out another path. Those who dont know history are doomed to repeat it. We have to know where we come from before we can make a choice. So in your becoming the father you want to be you will need to look at what you learned from your father and make choices about if those are ways you want to act and be.
I am going to out and out say it you got gyped by your dad, you never got to see how a loving and committed man could act as a father and how a loving father would act around his children. You were right in your anger at him for the way he acted, that was you being a father and protecting your family. It also makes sense that you dont feel that instant bond with your daughter, mainly because any paternal feelings you did get from your dad seems to have been painful to you as a child, I understand you not wanting to subject your daughter to the same pain you felt as a child.
Your dad made his own choices, he was a man too, and they were not because of anything you did. I know its hard to get that because when we grieve we tend to take on more responsibility than we really have. This is a sticky wicket but I trust you will realize this fully in time.
I really resonated with the way you feel like you are doomed, but lets be clear that this is your judgment on yourself and not the reality of your self. I know having compassion for yourself is really hard, especially when you feel like you fucked up. Its like being a fish in water you cant imagine feeling anything but the water you are in. It is really hard to get out of this vicious circle by yourself, but it is doable, people around the world do it daily. I would ask you this if one of your best friends was going through what you are going through what would your heart desire for them to do? Would you be more compassionate to your friend than you are to yourself? I know I am my own critic and need support to get out of that circle. I would have never gone to any kind of counseling but would always support my friends doing it.
So here is what I think about counseling, if you do it fully and honestly you will go round and round, it will suck to be dealing with the same issues over and over again, however if you are really doing it honestly and fully what you will realize is that you are not in a vicious circle but a very tight spiral staircase. Like a staircase you go round and round but if you are working it right you are moving upward and eventually you get a different perspective on the same issue, eventually you learn to deal with those issues, grow and be able to make better choices for yourself. The advantage to counseling is that you learn to see that there are other ways to do things than what has been done and what you feel doomed you are going to do.
You have a lot on your plate, you have been smart in that you reached out and have gotten a lot of good advice and if you keep doing that I suspect you will find you can get a lot of good support as well. I guess it comes down to what kind of man, what kind of father you are going to choose to be.
Posts: 25 | From: Seattle | Registered: Feb 2009
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if my friends where going through this id tell them to get help id nag and nag and nag to the point where they would hate me but its easy to say that from a different persepective he fucked me over big time though how can someone say they love you then do that! i learnt how to hit from a bong i learnt how to drink without throwing up i learnt how to make people feel worthless and treat them bad and i learnt that "men dont cry" and "Real men dont talk about there feelings" yeah he...was great he didnt even see Emily she clearly meant about as much to him as i did hes a waste of space he screwed me up im violent like my dad i drink till im drunk till im paralytic like my dad im depressed like my dad he left me all this shit and the only way out is counselling counselling that my dad went to and now my dads dead...fantastic i dunno im thinking he could of fucked me up a little bit more than he already has
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Harvey, why don't you kind of sit with all of this input and feedback for a day or so, then come back tomorrow and we can talk some more?
This is a lot to digest and process, after all.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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Cant sleep wont sleep ill get drunk if i go out the baby will wake up any way no ones awake no one to talk to i can sit and depressed that sounds like fun
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Okay, if you do want to talk more, we can absolutely do that.
Would you like me to add my additional thoughts on this, or do you want to write more for yourself?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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I'm wondering if it might be helpful for you for me to talk about how I worked through having someone really close to me suicide. If it isn't helpful, we can certainly talk about something else.
I think one of the toughest things for me was not being able to get any resolution. For instance, you clearly -- and validly -- are very angry with your father, both around his suicide and all of what he did to you and didn't do for you. You clearly feel you bear some responsibility in his suicide. But, you're now without the opportunity to voice that anger, and also without the opportunity to talk with him about you causing a pregnancy and to hear him say that was NOT -- and it really likely wasn't -- why he did what he did. That's so painful and so hard, and unfortunately, we can't ever get that from people who are gone. It's just something we have to accept, but it can be really difficult to do that because it is so, so unfair.
I had similar feelings of responsibility with the person I was close to who suicided. It took me a really long time to recognize that he was clearly on that track all by himself, and nothing I did or didn't do would have changed anything: he was going to go that route regardless, and that was all about his choices, not about me.
By the way, chances are your dad was behaving the way he did after you told him about the pregnancy and until he died because he'd already mentally checked out. people on their way out of this world like that just don't tend to really hear the rest of us or feel where we are at: being suicidal is a very, very self-absorbed space to be in.
I think it's sound to look over again, a lot of what Blue said. You do have choices here, despite all the challenges you have, many of which were set up by your Dad.
I realize we haven't really toughed on your partner and how willing she is to work on all of this. What's your sense of what work she is willing to put into changing things for the better?
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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[Hey Harvey, I know you've got a dialogue going with Heather and others here. I don't mean to butt in but I would really like to recommend a book to you. Have you ever seen or heard of Slam by Nick Hornby? It is a novel about teen pregnancy told from a male perspective in a way that feels very authentic and insightful, realistic-yet-hopeful and just unlike anything I'd read before. You can look into the book at that link, as well as read others' reviews. It is fiction but deals with a lot of things you are mentioning here.
I also just wanted to say that, for all the incredible challenges are you facing, I am very impressed at your commitment to work through all this; as hard as it all is, you are showing a massive amount of strength (and, yeah, the negative and mixed feelings and doubt don't take away from that.)
I would wish you could give yourself some more credit here because I am pretty damn impressed and I know I'm not the only one; I know I'm just someone from the internet versus being there with you and seeing what all you're going through. But your strength and commitment shines through so brightly I can just tell, for real. Good luck!]
Posts: 3318 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I dont know we dont talk well we do but not about my dad she bangs on and on and on and on and ******* on about getting help i love her she puts up with so much of my shit we argue and i treat her bad at times but i love her and i know i love her she says she'll do any thing to help me help Emily even help my family i go out late i get smashed i kick off and she still stands by me so im guessing she'll do any thing
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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When she is talking about getting help, is she talking about both of you getting help TOGETHER? because while it certainly sounds like you need some help, it also very much sounds like the both of you need help as a couple which is not just about you, but about both of you.
What I'd suggest is that rather than assuming she'll do anything, you have a talk with her -- maybe right now, if she's home -- and talk about some of what we've talked about here today. Perhaps you might even show her this thread? Then you can ask if she'd try some counseling or another kind of medication WITH you, and you two can start to make a plan together to find something/someone who you both want to try out.
If I can suggest something else? One step you can do right now, without a counselor, is to make a choice -- and this is up to you and no one else, and you have this power -- to quit going out late and getting smashed and leaving her alone with your kid. By all means, blowing off steam now and then and seeing friends is important, but if you earnestly want things to change, one thing you'll need to start with is by dedicating some real time to your life with your new family. Even if you can just cut out one of those nights a week at first is great, and you dedicating real time and making that effort is likely to help her really feel your commitment, help you feel less like a screwup, and give you both some time to be together without the extra stress of her seeing you after you've been out all night drinking.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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no on my own she says counsellers creep her out she says quote "id rather stick pins in my eyes" unquote the medication thats a whole different pile of crap i take it i take it cause i gotta not cause i want to again because of my ******* dad...dad shall i call him dad he was a ******* waste of space because of Adam screwing up my life im in tonight woop im not out all night most the night yeah all night no
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Perhaps then you could show this to her and gently communicate to her that a couple cannot fix all their problems by ONE person addressing their own issues. You getting counseling for yourself will likely help you, and help with the relationship somewhat, but she has to be willing to do some work, too.
For you two to improve, you will have to do some work together. You cannot possibly fix the issues you two share by yourself.
As well, if you are going to go into counseling, it's really important that your partner is supportive. calling therapists creepy and talking about counseling that way is not supportive, nor likely to help YOU feel good about it.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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i hope she will it is like quarter to two in the morning she is asleep sort of like every one else thats if i go pluck me it didnt help my family oounselling did it
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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I'm heading towards bed, but I wanted to mention that how much counseling helps a family had a lot to do with how much a family puts into it. It seems very possible your father was not investing a lot in it.
As well, when someone has a serious mental health issue, like being suicidal, or a serious problem like alcoholism, those things need pretty serious treatment separately, and the person with them also needs to be invested in that treatment.
So, if you want to be helped more than your Dad was, that's going to have a lot to do with what YOU bring to the table with counseling, and that's totally up to you.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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Harvey showed me this forum thing and say thankyou, he doesnt talk about his dad to many people bottles it up and ends up taking it out on himself. he takes the whole weight of his dads death on his own shoulders i'll stand by him no matter what and i WILL do what ever it takes to help him...to help us and our family as disfuncational as it may be However harvey and counselling in the same sentence never go together, ive tryed so flipping hard to get him to go ive even said id go with him but he refuses he says it never helped his father how will it help him and says hes destained to go the same way. i just wanted to say thankyou Maddy X
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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Hi, Maddy. It's good to "meet" you! can you do us a favor, though, and if you're going to post here, register your own account? We're happy to talk with you, two, but couples or friends wanting to participate need their own accounts so that we don't get confused.
You're very welcome. So, do you feel like you might be willing to make another try and getting counseling together? Is what Harvey said about your attitudes about counseling not really how you feel about it? If not, I think it might be helpful to him to hear you express more positive support around counseling.
-------------------- Heather Corinna, Executive Director & Founder, Scarleteen About Me Get our book! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead Posts: 63428 | From: An island near Seattle | Registered: May 2000
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I will i i honestly will its my next thing to do when ive got time I think itll be good for us to do it hes knows i do im only against it when he asks me at 2 in the morning he went to one counselling thing with me just after his dad died but he walked out and hasnt given it another thought about it. ill set up one of these thingys soon! thanks again maddy
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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I showed Maddy this as you know and now her like every one else is on my back about counselling ive done it before, i cant do it again i know i sound like a looser whats so hard about walking through a door or making a call but i cant do it seriously
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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It can be hard to walk through the door or make a call. The first time I called to schedule an appointment with a counselor, I dialed and hung up at least 5 times before I had the nerve to stay on the line and actually book the appointment. Heck, that's not even counting the probably 10-20 times I picked up the phone and put it back down because I couldn't even get to the point of dialing! So if being afraid to call and make an appointment makes somebody a loser, then I guess I'm one and so are a heap of other people.
It may help you to remember that even if counseling didn't do it for you before, that's not a guarantee that this time will be exactly the same. Maybe your last counselor just didn't mesh well with you. Or, maybe you were not in a place mentally where you were ready to deal with it yet or were committed to making it work. Do you want to talk about what it was about your last experience with counseling that you think made it not work? I know you've said above that you felt like you were going around and around...but as somebody already responded, that's often part of the process of dealing with your issues and then healing.
It may also help to take this one step at a time. When I'm feeling lost and like things are overwhelming, I'm a big fan of making lists to help me sort myself out. Could you make a list of all of the good things that you WANT to get out of counseling and another list of the things that make you afraid of counseling? Maybe if you can look at the benefits and we can talk here (if you'd like) about some of the specific issues you are worried about with counseling, we can come up with ways to deal with those things.
-------------------- Sarah Liz Posts: 7313 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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As an additional question, what is the time you are spending with your partner and daughter like? I feel like we might be able to tackle some of this more easily if we had a good idea about what the day-to-day is like for you. How involved were you during your partner's pregnancy? (Did you go to appointments? Present for the birth? Did you want to do those things?) What are your interactions like now? (How much time do you spend with them? How much time are you and your partner spending alone together? What do you talk about? What is the time with your daughter like? What do you usually do? Etc.)
I'd like to add another question here as well...this is less about counseling (though I think it's really important that we continue that dialogue here as well) and more about you and how you're feeling right now...
When is the last time you did something with your new family that made you feel truly good?
(I've got to step out and run a few errands, but I'd like to come back later and continue to participate in the dialogue.)
posted
It was just after adam died and it just freaked me out the whole thing every thing they said hacked me off every thing she said annoyed me i ended up getting wrecked and high and ended up in hospital. i just wanna be able to talk to my girlfriend and be a parent to my daughter and feel usefull and not feeling so depressed all the time. but someone unpicking why my adam did what he did or why he did it or why he treated my mum and my family or me the way he did or someone telling me they understand when they dont!
-------------------- ____*Harvey*____ Posts: 76 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2009
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