Sexual Shame and Sexual Trauma: Intimacy Issues

[BuddyBoi21]

Hey all, I've been dating a person for about 6 months now and have noticed a rise in a relationship problem from around 2-4 months in the relationship. I struggle with sexual shame and myths about my sexuality as a masculine trans person with a higher sex drive. My partner has some sexual trauma and once these two individual problems collided, it made me feel as though I'm at fault and that we'll never get past these issues.

I was very sexually frustrated and had the ideas of entitlement, sexual shame and insecurity in my head. My partner and I weren't able to see each other for almost a month or two over the summer. This made me upset and felt like they were flaking on me by cancelling our plans more often than usual (or their parents cancelling because my partner is 19 and lives with strict, allegedly racist, anti-LGBT+ parents at that). We're also live an hour apart which is why I would be so upset to look forward to seeing them all week only to have the plans cancelled last minute.

This lead to me becoming more frustrated and upset and using sex/masturbation as a coping skill. Once I connected them to it, it only made things worse. They weren't in the mood for sexual things at times and whenever I heard this I felt two things: some sort of rejection, like I wasn't handsome enough or sexually attractive enough to my partner for us to be synced up; and some form of guilt/self-disgust/embarrassment for being so horny around them so much.

I would cry and feel genuinely bad for being aroused so easily around my partner or by their simplest actions. If they rubbed my chest, kissed my lips or my neck or teased me sexually in any little way, I'd instantly crave more and become more curious about sexual exploration. (We're both virgins as well). When they let me know they weren't in the mood but I still felt the arousal, that followed by guilt. So I decided to start withdrawing myself from them.

Now, I withdrew because I want sex but I also care about my partner a lot so I don't wanna be creepy or hurt them so I pushed them away. This not only hurt them anyway but this intial withdrawl along with another situation made them feel as though only wanted them for sex (this also triggered their previous sexual trauma because they felt like I was only looking to use them).

I remember I was again in a situation where I felt like I was becoming too aroused and asked (more than once) whether or not any, more intimate activity would happen (heavy petting and intimate touching with clothes on). I only had two things on my mind when asking:
1. I want to go home and take care of this arousal myself by masturbating.
2. I'm going to be late picking up my yoinger sister from her volunteering

To my partner, this came off as:
1. Something that mad them mad and reminded them of people who wanted to take advantage of them
2. That I only wanted them for sex

They eventually sat me down into a chair and we managed to start that way and then soon after made our way to their room. They seemed to genuinely enjoy themself but I still think it over and I don't even clearly remember if I checked in on them. I just remember I ended up running late anyway.

We eventually talked this over in recent months and they told me they didn't know I felt so much sexual shame or that I did nor intend to come off as only looking for sex. They tell me they forgive me and that they're trying to move on and that they still love me. Recently we were put on a break due to their depression hitting them hard and I still can't help but constantly battle all of these different feelings.

Initially, they began to withdraw from me and not speak to me for about a month before we did eventually talk over the issue (they basically slowly stopped speaking to me over the course of a month after that event happened around 4 months into the relartionship and we almost broke up before they told me the truth).

Once they told me how they felt, I was at first relieved but now I feel this terribke guilt that comes back to haunt me every now and again. My partner has reassured me in the past before that I didn't ruin anything and that they don't think I'm a bad person but they still feel hurt and we both know I can't undo how I acted.

So because of this I'll not only feel guilty to the point where I feel like I'm a disgusting, sex-craving monster but also to the point where I'm certain I've sexually coerced/manipulated/assaulted my partner and that they only stay with me because I actaully show remorse.

This further fuels my sexual shame/guilt because I just feel like my partner will never be interested in me sexually or romantically in the same way ever again and that we're basically on the long road to breaking up and it's all my fault.

That because I didn't keep it in my pants that I'll lose the most amazing person to ever have walked into my life thus far.
If my relationship is basically over, is there any way I can someone fix my sexual shame or just figure out how to properly practice celibacy until I die?

I know this entire post is a mess but pretty much the short version is:
1. I feel like I've sexually assualted/coerced my partner without meaning to.
2. I thought withdrawing myself emotionally and physically from a healthy, budding sexual relationship would protect my partner from "dirty" sexual urges towards them.
3. I'm so full of sexual shame, guilt and umhealthy concepts of sexual expression as a masculine person that it's hurt what could've been a wonderful, more genuine romantic and sexual relationship.

Comment however you like but yeah this is pretty messy.

Signed,

A sexually frustrated, conflicted, masculine non-binary person of age 19

[Sam W]

Hi BuddyBoi,

It sounds like there is a lot of guilt and shame piling up inside you, some of it to do with how you're feeling and some of it to do with how you're acting (or fear you acted) towards your partner. So, let's see if we can untangle those things a bit and see if that helps you.

For starters, can you tell me more about what you mean when you say you've internalized, "sexual shame and myths about my sexuality as a masculine trans person with a higher sex drive?" There's nothing wrong with having a strong interest in sex, just like there's nothing wrong with having little to no interest in sex, but it sounds like that shame is also very much tied up in your gender identity.

You mention fears that you've coerced your partner into being sexual in the past. But the truth is, only your partner can tell you whether or not that's what happened, and I'm having a hard time parsing from your post if that's a conversation that's occurred. You mention the two of you talking about a particular incident, but it sounds like that conversation focused more on them learning about your feelings of shame. Were their feelings about that particular incident also discussed?

I don't say this to shame or scare you, but in the event that your partner has told you that you coerced them, that runs up against the limits we have in terms of what we can help users with.

[BuddyBoi21]

Hey Kind Staff Member,

1. For the first bit: I grew up as a queer kid in a Christian home. I also discovered masturbation pretty early (before age 9) and was caught by my parents and shamed for that ever since. I was asked by my parents if someone showed me or if I was molested. Ever since then I experienced a lot of guilty feelings after masturbating and would often wash my hands or say to myself only certain kinds of stimulation were okay but still feel the guilt. Eventually I would push past that guilt feeling and continue to masturbate alone and be very secretive about my sexual desires.

2. Second, I realized I was a non-binary trans person almost 3 years ago. I gravitate toward expressing myself in a more masculine way and always have even before I knew I was not cis. I felt like some traits I have are more "naturally masculine", like I have always felt my sex drive was high for someone assigned female at birth. However along with that I've felt that if I enjoy sex/sexual contact "too much" or become "too arosed" that I'll be interested in having sex or have sex to an unhealthy degree; in worse cases I've even feared I would hurt/scare off my sexual partner with my high interest in sex and felt it needed to be toned down. I even fear starting my medical transition with hormone therapy for fear I'll become some agressive, sex-crazed monster.

At the same time I also have felt and still feel on some occasions that I'm not attractive as a masculine person if someone I'm interested in has little to no interest in me, this can include sexaul attraction as well. I've always been seen as cute or more feminine and that not only makes me feel dysphoric but also feel sexually unappealing in the eyes of those attracted to masculinty and in the world of what makes a transmasculine person hot. How this translates into my relationship is that I feel some sort of rejection when my partner is not in the mood for sexual exploration and just wants to cuddle. It makes me feel like I'll be nothing more than cute and boyish when I very badly want to mature and look more my age (I'm 19). But at the same time I knew it wasn't bad or anything of that sort to be seen as cuddly or to only want to cuddle but then my sexual guilt started to kick in when they would touch me in the smallest ways would cause me to almost instantly feel the arousal. I would feel like I'm being gross by being both sexually aroused so much and so easily by my partner. I even feared I would hurt them if the arousal continued because I somehow see it as a natural response. (Like if we kiss, I REALLY like it and want to kiss more passionately than in a more cute manner). It was as though I didn't see myself as sexual and that if I did it was a separate icky feeling that I couldn't control.

3. Their feelings were discussed when we finally sat down and talked through everything. They felt very angry with me and that the feelings they felt reminded them of a situation they had with a step brother who molested them. And they also vented to quite a few of their friends who felt I was being manipulative and encouraged that my partner should've left me because of this. (This was a fair assessment to some degree). When I heard that, it really sank into me how much of an ass I acted like. Like yes, I felt very guilty but once I heard that I honestly started to get to points where I felt like I was better off left alone to die in a depression filled heartache that I caused or even die because I felt digusting excuse of a human being that would make their love happier by being dead.
My partner never used the term sexually assault, rape or even coercion when we talked over the situation. And every time I brought up how guilty I felt and how I felt like I ruined our entire relationship they would do what they can to assure me that I didn't ruin anything despite royally screwing up. I remember when we talked over how they were still hurting and still pushing to fogive and forget the situation that I cried so much because of my immense guilt. I felt like a(nd to some degree still feel like) a terrible person and that we will never recover from this.

I will never blame them, would not be surprised if they left me and I would honestly feel like I deserve it. All in all I just feel absolutely terrible about this and that in reading the articles about sexual coercion and assualt that I did this even if my partner is too kind-hearted to say this about me.

They still think I'm a sweet, kind hearted person who wouldn't hurt anyone but all I see is a disgusting, lust-filled child.

I hope this vent cleared some details up.

Nervously writing,

-BuddyBoi

[Heather]

I'm just going to pop in and do a little general myth-busting about some things for you here, and leave the larger conversation to you and Sam so I don't interrupt that. I think just knowing some facts it seems like you don't might help alleviate some of these feelings.

1) 9 years old is actually late for masturbating. It's super-common -- most common, I would say -- for infants to be touching their genitals out of curiosity, and for comfort and pleasure. same goes for toddlers and young children. A lot of people won't remember that early masturbation just like they don't remember a lot of things in very early life. And many people stop masturbating in very early childhood because they are shamed for it much like you were when doing it later on. The point is, there's nothing unusual about masturbating in childhood. That's normal.

2) How much desire someone has for sex isn't based on the sex they were assigned, or whether they have a uterus or testes. It's a myth that AMAB people necessarily want more sex or sex more often. Culturally it can play out that way, for all the reasons you'd suspect: go figure that rampant sexism and misogyny and life under patriarchy is a boner-killer for people who lack a penis or the level of power that can result in. Point is, there's nothing unusual about you because you experience big sexual desires and were AFAB.

3) Masculine sexuality is not necessarily more dangerous or "bad" than other kinds of sexuality. The idea that they are is cultural, and also has a whole lot to do with creating a pass for some men who use their sexuality as a weapon on the backs of all men (and the people who they are sexual with). Even when that is what is happening, that doesn't make men's sexuality bad or unsafe: it makes THAT man who is using it THAT WAY dangerous or unsafe at that time.

[Sam W]

So, there is a lot to unpack here, but I think there are some parts that we can start untangling. For starters, it sounds like a large chunk of the shame you feel about sex is tied to the environment you grew up in. If you were shamed for things that are part of normal sexual development, like masturbating, then it makes sense that you'd start to feel guilt when you engaged in them. But it sounds like these feelings of shame and guilt have grown into (or along with) some pretty intense feelings of anxiety and self-loathing that are causing you a lot of distress, which is a sign that it may be time to call in outside help. Have you ever spoken to a mental healthcare provider about any of this? If not, is that something you're open to trying?

It also seems like you're carrying around some misconceptions about sex drives and arousal (some of which Heather just addressed). People of all genders can have high sex drives, just like people of all genders can have little interest in sex, and that level of interest in sex generally fluctuates during a person's life based on a ton of different factors. And it's unlikely that partners will be perfectly matched in terms of how much interest they have in sex. Sometimes that mismatch means they're not a good fit as partners, other times it's a non-issue. Too, liking sex or being interested in sex doesn't mean that you'll become sex-crazed in the moment and end up hurting a partner. People who commit sexual assault don't do so because they were just so overcome with lust in the moment; they make a conscious choice to prioritize their desires over their partner's boundaries. Arousal isn't the cause of that choice, entitlement is. Does that make sense?

As an aside, the idea of someone starting testosterone and then becoming a raging sex-monster is very much rooted in transphobic fear-mongering rather than reality. It can change arousal patterns or levels for some trans folks who take it, but not in any sort of severe or scary way.

There are a few things that it sounds like might need to happen with your partner. For starters, you need to find another space to process the feelings of guilt you have, because having the person who was hurt be the person you try to process with is neither productive nor kind to either of you. But there are other conversations that you two need to be having to help maintain a healthy relationship. Can you give me a sense of if the two of you have talked about how you want to proceed in your relationship? And, either in the past or currently, what have the conversations been like around sexual boundaries and needs? Are those things you two talk about often and explicitly?

[BuddyBoi21]

1. I am in therapy and trying to talk about this particular topic with my most current therapist but I also have been talking about other aspects of life. With this particular therapist we've been examining only the general basis of how I can cope with other life events regarding my family and transition. I have breifly talked over with a former therapist of mine (who works in sex therapy and directly with LGBT+ people) about what we can do before I stopped seeing her and switched to a lower cost therapist.
I'm not entirely sure if it would work but here's the idea:
She suggested that I and my partner should try being nude around one anohter and just touch each other in a non sexual way so I can get more comfortable with this sort of thing. I have little sexual experience and any previous exploration I did have did not end well which is why she suggested this method.
The problem is, the last time my partner genuinely touched me was by holding my hand and wiping my tears away with their sleeve when we last discussed what happened. So I don't see this situation working.
With another therapist I saw, she noted that my partner and I both have internalized issues from previous negative sexual experiences and that when our incident happened that I did not necessarily sexuaply assault my partner but it was really just miscommunication and on accident after another that lead to both of us feeling scared and in pain.
So currently I have no sex therapy go ing on or really anything to truly help me resolve these feelings. Now I just try to ignore them and to a degree hope I never have sex with my partner or anyone because I feel they won't ever want to be near me in that way again.

I have been reading the articles here, some of them are helping me a lot in terms of getting these misconceptions out of my head and that's great. But others make me feel like my partner genuinely loves me to the point where they believe I haven't done anything considered sexual assault/coercion. The more I described what happened to therapists, counselors, whatever, they commend me on how I know this was bad but for me it doesn't change the fact that I hurt my partner and whether they will admit it or not I don't think I deserve to be with them or have their love.

Before this happened we were both very sexaully interested and they have even gone as far as expressing that they would've behaved more sexual around me in the very early parts of our relationship if I were ready at that time.

Now after that incident and the behaviors that lead up to it that my partner was so patient with me on I can just tell they will never want to touch me in that context ever again. I recognize that because of unhealthy behaviors in my attachment to masculinity I picked up on that stupid sense of entitlement because I was dating someone (which I now know is a very wrong idea to have) but now I just feel like I shouldn't be having sex at all even though I can tell I really want to touch a person (particularly my partner) in a more intimate and have fun with them and pleasure them. I know now though because of my actions that may never happen and to some degree I don't think it should ever happen. I just want my partner to be happy and I just don't see that person making them happy is me. Even if people tell me it's just one or two accidents or that my partner knows I'm trying so hard to be better, I just don't think they'll ever love me the same way again.

We have talked about doing everything we can to move forward.

The first time we talked about it, my partner said they would do their best to forgive me but know they didn't really want to touch me in that way anymore and said their boundaries were just kissing, holding hands, hugging and cuddling. I respected this and in this same conversation this is how I found out how badly I hurt them (learning how this situation reminded them of their previous sexual trauma).

After that I basically became a lot more reserved, letting them lead any sort of breaking the touch barrier between the two of us or just not touching them unless they explicitly said I could (Often I would check in two or three times even after they said they were sure or okay) About two weeks later, during their birthday, I notced their body language. They didn't want to touch me. I eventually withdrew myself from the party and they later on realized I was gone for about an hour and asked if I was okay.

At this point it was the third time we had discussed this in person. The first time we discussed it, we went over how we both felt. They expressed how upset they were and that they didn't see me as a bad person but that they were still hurt and that there was nothing else I could do to help them beside change my behavior and wait. They also told me that by withdrawing myself, even with good intentions hurt them so much regardless; I just want to stop feeling arousal entirely.

So a month ago, when at their party when we discussed it the second time, I did notice they were visibly not wanting to be near me and joking about how we could break up after I mention how I hope we stat together.
When I left the party for about an hour and they spoke to me I only mentioned how badly it hurt me that they pushed me away, how I felt like nearly all of their friends hated me because of what I did and I just felt terrible and that I brought this upon myself by messing up and making my partner feel scared.

When we talked (over the phone; I was in my car and they stood outside of their friend's house), I expressed how terrible I still felt and my partner did their best to reassure me that I'm not bad or gross and that they were still hurting but doing their best to heal. They haven't gone to a therapist because they've been busy with college and coping with their depression. So even though I've asked for them to try and seek therapy if possible they haven't and I still don't know if they have.

As for the third time, I was driving them home. They told me they were trying really hard not to see me as a bad person but said that every time they looked at me they remembered and just felt angry all over again. Once I expressed how terrible I felt and how I felt like I deserved to be in pain and talked about how hard I was trying to not beat myself up over this (which honestly was much too late), I had cried a substantial amount and they wiped my tears and told me they had to think over what to do next. At that point I dropped them off and tried to drive home but was crying so much I could hardly open my eyes, I had called an LGBT+ suicide prevention line because I knew this could easily spiral further into self harm if I did not manage it. So when I called I went over everything; I said I was in pain, that I didn't want to lose a person I cared about, how I knew things would be okay even if we broke up but I knew it would all hurt and that I felt it was all my fault. Soon after I finished my call my partner called me and told me they wanted to keep trying, that they did not want to break up and that they would do a better job at communicating with me more often. I was calm and happy but emotionally exhausted after the whole weekend due to other emotionally charged life events.

Then a little over a week ago my partner and I talked about a separate issue regarding where we were in the relationship, the mental health of ourselves individually and how well we were communicating.
They said they love and care about me but just felt their depression at a high lately (they also take medication and have been trying to do better at keeping up with taking it lately; apparently they have been without medication throughout the majority of our relationship and I didn't mind at all).
So because of everything feeling rough on them recently they asked if we could take a break. They did not give me a time period and said they needed time to get everything in their life together before moving forward. They insisted that none of this had to do with me but I felt some how I caused this and have been trying to take the time to seek help with my sexual shame while they were gone. They already knew I was trying to watch psychology videos, seek counseling, anything to move myself forward so if things ever did get better between the two of us (or of I had a new partner) that I wouldn't be so messed up over this.

The last time we spoke was this past Friday; they checked in on me to see if I was okay. They told me they were feeling better but a bit stressed and that the issue causing their stress would go away soon. I wasn't informed on what the issue was because I didn't want to press the issue. After that we haven't been speaking since.

I found this site because I saw the book the author had made and found this site as well. It's great but I do know I need much deeper help for some of my issues.

Aside from that I'm giving my partner complete control of sexual situations and at this point I submit entirely to them in the relationship and refuse to try to be dominant in any way. I just want them to be happy even if it means I have to leave. They say they want me to be happy too but I don't care about my happiness anymore because I hurt them and I just don't think I deserve it.

[Mo]

I hope it's ok if I pop into this discussion with some of my thoughts.

First off, I know Sam and Heather have said this above, but it's so, so important that I want to say it again: it is ok to have sexual desire. It is ok to want to be sexual with a partner, even if they aren't interested in being sexual with you. And even if you've hurt someone in the past or have regrets about your actions, it is ok to be happy, or seek out happiness in your life. It's not wrong for you to want any of those things.
If it helps to have a personal anecdote: I am a trans person on testosterone and while I heard a lot of stories about what it might do to my sex drive or my anger levels, when I did try it I found that they were almost entirely untrue or wildly exaggerate. Testosterone didn't make me sexually aggressive (or aggressive in general) at all.

It's possible I'm missing something in what you've written here, but I'm not seeing an instance of sexual assault between you and your partner. Conflict around sex can exist without one person assaulting the other. Unless there's another incident you haven't written about here that does involve assault or coercion, I think it will help if you're able to reframe some of what you and your partner have experienced so that the narrative you're telling yourself isn't one of assault. That might take some time, but does it sound like something you'd be able to try?

It sounds like you and your partner are both dealing with a lot of pain from traumas and stresses in your lives, and that what you each need to take care of yourselves might not always be compatible. People can care deeply for each other without being compatible as dating partners. It also sounds like there's been this dynamic between the two of you where you are doing a lot of apologizing and letting your partner take control of some things, but long-term that can set up a pretty unbalanced dynamic that makes it hard for a healthy relationship to flourish.

For example, at your partner's party, it was totally fine for you to withdraw a bit and take time for yourself when you felt like they didn't want to see or spend time with you (given the joke they made about breaking up, I find this really understandable! That sounded pretty hurtful.). It honestly wasn't very fair to you, and a bit manipulative, for them to say that you taking time for yourself was hurtful to them. If someone's giving off pretty clear signals that they don't want you around, it isn't at all ok to then decide they don't want you to leave, either. Your partner may indeed have felt hurt when you left, but that doesn't mean the hurt is your fault or yours to manage.

Also, I don't know if you've seen this advice column from a few years back but there's a lot in Heather's wonderful response that I think could be helpful for you.

[BuddyBoi21]

Hi Mo,

I want to thank all of you so much for your input so far. It's also nice to be reminded my sexual desire is okay and that certain ideas about testosterone and masculine sexuality are untrue.
I will say this: I'm putting this out here because these thoughts are still persisting. I know logically it isn't all my fault but I FEEL like it is, y'know?

A lot of the guilt is overwhelming because I can see, have been told of and understood the feelings attached to behaviors that align with entitlement and coercion. The misconseptions we're taught about what it means to be in and the roles of a relationship. As well as the insecurity and misunderstanding of a partner when they simply don't want to have sex with you. I understand "feeling 12 years old" for being sexually rejected but I would never and have never cursed my partner out for it. I can get being horny and sexually frustrated but I want my partner to be genuinely engaged with me and for the two of us to bring that emotion into that intimacy. So I'm doing what I can to identify these insecurities and feelings of rejection and express them better instead of letting it stream into my other personal sexual expression issues.

I feel like I've done something that sounds like a "nicer" version of what coercion is or at least what consent is not. I asked my partner multitple times in that instance if we were going to proceed or if I should just go home. My intent may not have been maliscous or meant to have been manipulative but that's how I came off to someone I care about and I cannot undo that.

Even though I was still being polite and would've been relieved if my partner had just sent me home, they felt worn down and proceeded with the activitity. I don't recall if I checked in with them or not but I still proceeded like nothing was wrong until they eventually isolated themself away from me and told their friends.

The closest thing to me hearing anything related to sexual assualt or coercion from this situation was not only me reading and comparing my actions to what this site says, but also recalling that my partner said I made them feel how their step brother made them feel when they were assaulted by him.

So to me I feel like my partner loves me and cares about me to the point where they may be hurting themselves.

Maybe I am being very harsh with myself (it has been an issue brought up before in the past) but I also want to hold myself accountable. If I did this, then I don't deserve to be with my current partner. And if it's not that then I feel I need some sort of just punishment.

From a logical standpoint, I can certainly agree with you that tipping the scales in the dynamic won't fix anything but I just don't really know what to do. My partner and I were pretty compatible to begin with and the only thing we were waiting on was for both partners to be sexually comfortable with one another. As things externally became more stressful I tried to go to them for comfort and wore them out and they like to isolate themself from everyone when they feel distressed. I started seeing this more and more after the incident and I just feel like I ruined everything, regardless of what they tell me.

As for the party bit, I may have explained it weirdly. When I say my partner was hurt I meant the were still hurting from the incident which is why they were withdrawn from me. As far as I know they wouldn't try to do anything like that to me.

I guess aside from all of this mess I'm dealing with; within my conflict with my partner, is it possible to resolve it at all?

We're still together in hopes things will work out and if it's really not a situation of I assualted them and I just need to learn how to better express and communicate my sexual feelings then will things actaully get better and work out for the long run?

Thank you all again for the input so far <3

Signed,

A very sexually confused teenager.

[Heather]

I'm so sorry if I am being daft, but I feel like I am still confused about what, exactly happened here. To help you at all well (and to know if we can't), I feel like we really need to know if you actually perpetrated some kind of sexual abuse, and so are having some of the feelings you are, OR if you are just having those feelings. I'm sorry to ask again for more specifics about things that are obviously very painful, but I know myself and other staff still just feel so unsure, and we can't do our jobs well if we aren't clear.

If you just want to say no to trying to explain this again, I totally understand, and we can try and find a different way to come at all of this. But if not, here's where I feel confused (and you might, too!):

I feel like I've done something that sounds like a "nicer" version of what coercion is or at least what consent is not. I asked my partner multitple times in that instance if we were going to proceed or if I should just go home. My intent may not have been maliscous or meant to have been manipulative but that's how I came off to someone I care about and I cannot undo that.

Even though I was still being polite and would've been relieved if my partner had just sent me home, they felt worn down and proceeded with the activitity. I don't recall if I checked in with them or not but I still proceeded like nothing was wrong until they eventually isolated themself away from me and told their friends.

Am I understanding correctly that you and your partner were either already being sexual, or had maybe-plans to be sexual, and you asked if you were going to be? If so, you say you asked multiple times: that first time you asked, what did they say? Did they say no and tell you not to ask, or....? When you kept asking, what did they say?

I have more questions after this, and some things to say about some of what's in your last post. But if you could try and answer these questions as simply and clearly as possible, I think I could start to better navigate all this, and figure it out, with you.

[BuddyBoi21]

Yes, we had planned to be in a sexual situation.

When I had asked the first time they said no; afterward I felt uncomfortable and upset because I still felt aroused so I asked specifically if I should go. (I just wanted to leave and masturbate because I felt uncomfortable with how the smallest touch or rub made me feel aroused.)
They told me they didn't want me to leave and I did make it known I felt bad for being aroused. When I asked if they were sure if we should do anything or if I shouldn't just leave they didn't really say anything and looked very frustrated. I remember not really wanting to be touched and being standoffish after this first time I had asked. After a minute or two of us both being quiet for the reasons mentioned above they pulled me aside and proceeded. Our sexual intimacy was limted to keeping our clothes on and grinding against one another. I feel like I have commited some form of coercion and feel very guilty about it.

This is all that I remember, I hope this helped and I'm sorry if I was being too vague before.

[Heather]

That is very helpful, thank you.

Honestly, from where I'm sitting, I'm not seeing any evidence of coercion on your part here. And I've been looking for it hard, because of the way you've been talking, so sure you engaged in harm.

But what I see looking is what looks like: you asking if planned sex is a go, and them saying no. Then you asking to go home (to do what you wanted to do to tend to your sexual feelings yourself, since your potential partner wasn't interested, but honestly, it would be okay to leave for any reason). I see them refusing that request, and asking you to stay, then what looks like the two of you both sitting in conflicted and uncomfortable feelings for a bit and then this person physically initiating that kind of sex with you (you don't say anything about them taking a turn to ask you, which is actually the only place I'm seeing a clear lack of consent in all this).

How this person felt -- per being reminded of how she felt with abuse from her brother -- is something you, and I assume she, have mentioned here as what shows you you probably abused her. But I do not agree with that as a good way to gauge if abuse occurred in a situation. After all, those of us with any kind of trauma can feel how we felt in that trauma for all kinds of reasons, in all kinds of settings. What actions actually happened are the best ways to figure these things out. And I don't see you listing any actions here that sound, to me, like engaging in abuse in this situation. This just sounds like a mess, all around, and like a pretty mutual one, too.

To be honest, one thing that has kept knocking me about the head when I read your posts is that it just sounds like this relationship isn't great for you two, period. I hear you being very concerned you have crossed lines and boundaries, but I keep reading some things that came from your partner that doesn't sound healthy or sound to me (like not letting you withdraw or leave when you need to, for instance, or like framing this as something you did to them rather than something that sounds a lot more like both of you having a massive communication breakdown and then each making some off choices). I'm personally wondering if at this point you have so much guilt and shame and self-loathing that it's hard for you to really see anything in this but self-blame for....well, pretty much anything.

My sense is that this relationship is one that isn't great for either one of you, for probably a host of reasons. I don't think this is about not deserving this partner (though I am sure that feeling like you're not worthy won't help you in any relationship). I think what might be happening here, on top of some other things, is that you each cue the other one's trauma; that you're not a great fit, because for whatever set of reasons, neither of you feels particularly safe or secure with the other one. It sounds like this relationship has you both pretty chronically upset, and that's always a signal that as much as we might want a thing, as much as we might care about someone, we probably shouldn't be together in any way that has us feeling that way. In other words, it sounds like you both may make each other feel bad, even if that's not what either of you intends.

To go back to where you started, I'm not sure either -- and I'm sorry -- that you two can get past some of these issues together, mostly because you seem to mutually trigger each other's issues instead of having a therapeutic effect. Sometimes it's just like that with someone: we can really be into each other, even love each other, but something about our kinds of trauma are just a really bad combination.

Would you be open to talking about this some more, about considering that maybe this relationship just isn't great for *you* and you may need to let go of it, especially if you want to feel differently than you have been, and make some headway with some of the awful ways you have been feeling?

[BuddyBoi21]

I just want them to be happy. I really REALLY don't want to leave them if they are still willing to try as well. I also want to take their word for it that their current depression spell is not because of me. They did talk about family issues being the cause (specifially a close family member possibly being seriously sick) and being stressed from starting college and struggling financially as being the cause of us not talking currently. So while we may have our traumas, I really want to be with this person and despite their own pain they seem to want to be with me too.

Like I mentioned earlier, we are currently still on a break so they could get themself together in this time frame. I really want to push to improve myself while we're apart rather than leave them. If they decide the break up would be best I will respect that and know that I will be okay in the long run but there's no doubt this will initially hurt a lot.

To some degree I can also sense I will blame myself and see myself as unfit of having any serious romantic relationship for a very long time if my personal problems run that deeply. (I guess it's a possible stigma that "people with mental illnesses and psychological issues can't date so I probably shouldn't either if I'm someone in that category" sort of mindset? Maybe?)

Either way, I know breaking up isn't the end of the world but I am very aware of how much pain I will be in and how reluctant I may be toward vulnerability in the future if I have so many things going on internally that it'll pretty much negitively affect any relatonship I have regardless of how good a person I may be.

I just really want to try and work this out becausd I know there are tough things every couple will go through.

I've even consulted older friends (who are 25 or older) and/or friends who have beeing in relationships for 3 years or more who have (a) mental illness(es) and give me some shred of hope that things will work out without my partner and I needing to separate completely.

But yes, breaking up is an option that's open and that we have both discussed and each time we both express that we want to stay and try. Despite this I do try to say (even though I am a bit afraid of it) that they should never feel obligated to stay with me or that if being with me hurts they can leave (assuming we actually get a chance to speak to one another).

I guess the way you see it it really is just a slower journey to breaking up, isn't it?

[Heather]

There are tough things every couple will go through in time, but usually a) in relationships that are pretty good for everyone involved, there are way more not-tough things, and b) the tough things usually aren't happening so early on (when they're not something external, anyway, like a death in the family or a natural disaster, etc.).

Before I weigh in on that last question and more, could you maybe talk to me a little about the parts of the relationship that have NOT been a struggle? The parts that have felt really easy and good? The parts where you both feel like it's an earnestly great relationship, and you really connect in ways that feel very beneficial to you both? You say you really want to stay in it. Besides that you know it will cause you pain to end it, what about it makes it a relationship you really want to be in?

Can you talk to me about things that you DON'T see as needing work in the relationship? Things you think are 100% awesome already?

[BuddyBoi21]

That's fine! Here are some I can think of off the top of my head:
The way we communicate; we do everything we can to talk through one another's wants and needs and try to understand one another
How hard we try to work through things for one another big factor
My partner is very gentle with me and recognizes I'm a sensative person instead of forcing me into a box of stereotypes for masculine people.
They also often encourage me to pursue healthier, more emotionally expressive forms of masculinity rather than stoic ones.
They're also very respectful of my gender identity and my dysphoria (even helping me with it) as well as extremely supportive of what I do with my transition.
Desptie their parents not being very friendly toward people of color, they're very empathetic on issues regarding racial discrimination.
Personality wise we mesh well together and we have the same sense of humor and a lot of the same quirks.
Our ways of expressing affection are also similar; when we both trust another person and care about them we both tend to be very cuddly and affectionate and I really like that.
Honestly, it just really feels like my partner and I were doing well until we tried to organically approach sex, which is something we may not be ready for.
I'm okay with waiting if it means things can improve between us and that we successfully work through our individual traumas and eventually work up to having a happy, healthy sex life.

I really don't see myself being without them and I would like to have (and from the start saw) a very promising long term relationship with them. I just didn't expect for these old traumas of my own to come to light and create a perfect storm with theirs.

Any other issues that are going on are external, like our distance or their parents and to some degree obligations (which would probably be easier if it weren't for their parents).

Either way this is a big reason we both stay. Relationships don't come easliy and while yes we have our personal issues my partner and I recognize we really care a lot for one another.
They even have been telling me how much they appreciated that I've been trying so hard to work on myself and keep in contact with them or give them their space as needed as they struggle with depression. They have even told me they feel like a bad girlfriend because of their own struggles with their mental health keeping them from me which is why I agreed to go on a break until further notice.

I know it is all a mess but I'm willing to do all that I can to push through what seems like a (really) rough patch in hopes that things work out in the long run.

I hope this doesn't seem silly but all these things, some people may find simple are really important to me, and that's why I really like my partner. And if anything a good chunk of the pain I experience now is that I miss them.

Sure I still feel guilt but like I mentioned earlier I have talked through this before. I may not be completely healed but maybe I can take this time away from my partner to do that and hopefully we can move forward together.

Thank you Heather, Sam and Mo for your responses and help so far.

[Heather]

I'm afraid I am out for the day, but I was going to come back in in the morning to talk more with you and address this post. This information really fills the picture in for me more, thanks.

I will come back in the morning, but can you leave me any thoughts or feelings on what you think about, perhaps, this just not being right as a SEXUAL relationship, but perhaps being a great other-kind-of-relationship? In other words, how would you feel if you were able to shift, or at least try, this relationship to being something that is non-sexual, like a very close, affectionate and intimate friendship/family relationship (can't speak for you, but I consider all my closest friends family at a certain point)?

[BuddyBoi21]

That's fine! I'll leave this set of thoughts for you:

Well I don't know how I would feel about this relationship shifting from romantic to platonic.

We've established we would still be friends or at least try to be if our romantic relationship ended but I don't think either one of us would be okay with being close to one another in something that is platonic but still allows for more intimate forms of affection.

For both of us, it would leave a lot of room for things to easily progress back into a romantic relationship and/or a sexual relationship.

For myself, I do strongly tie that physical intimacy to my emotional attraction. I am trying to branch out and seek platonic forms of affection from friends (specifically masculine ones) and create better friendships with my friends but I can still tell that sort of affection doesn't feel exactly the same way as it does from my partner. (So like cuddling people I considee friends; it's nice but I still miss holding my partner)

My partner is a person who is already very affectionate and cuddly with their friends but also notes there is a different feeling between cuddling a friend versus cuddling a partner. If that makes sense?

So while we could definately try something along those lines, there's no doubt, in my mind, it would hurt us both.
For me personally it would hurt a lot because I would have to resist attaching romantic emotions to them, a person who would be a former partner in this case. Now unless something was really messed up about the person or the relationship (like abuse, lying, cheating, or something equally terrible or worse) I would find it exceedingly difficult for myself to resist developing those feelings again and in some cases have to separate myself from my partner completely if we broke up.

Also I don't know about how I personally could eventually move a person from a point where I used to be sexually and romantically attracted to them to thinking of them as a family member or close friend.
I have tried in the past to be friends with former crushes too soon/in general and it filled me with a lot of pain to deal with feelings of liking them and just trying to get over it. I feel emotions VERY intensely and it sucks a lot which is why even though I would like to, I don't think I would be able to even be friends with my current partner if we broke up.

It would just hurt way too much and I've let them know that.
As for them they can be friends with exes and have quite a few exes as friends now but from what we've discussed they're relatively similar with the way they express their affection.

They have certain forms of affection they do with friends but there are also more intimate forms they wouldn't express unless they were dating and trusted that person.

So it's why I'm very wary about that idea because it is very unlikely to work and would probably cause both of us pain rather than allowing us to move away from the romantic relationship in a healthy way.

We have earlier already made a decsion to stop having preconcieved notions and expectations on one another as romantic partners but in all honesty are just trying to do our best to move forward.

It's why I'm here because I recognize I have these different issues that are negitively impacting my relationship that aren't my partners fault and that aren't exactly my fault. And I am hopeful and trust that my partner is trying to solve through their issues too.

At one point our relationship was doing well but like I mentioned before, external factors like their ignorant parents and our distance make it that much harder.

Sexually, my partner and I were interested in one another and happily exploring. It wasn't until our individual traumas were triggered (mine happening first), that we started experiencing issues. That's a big reason why I put my post under sexual shame because it wasn't until I started having these feelings kick in and expressing them improperly that these issues really began to expose themselves.

I hope this all makes sense as to why I wouldn't really prefer that option and still hope my partner and I could have a healthy romantic relationship with one another.

[Sam W]

Hi Buddyboi,

One thing I'm picking up in your posts is that, for the time being, it sounds like being sexual in this relationship is something that needs to be put on hold. It sounds like a combination of trauma cues and other, outside factors is making sexual activity very fraught and stressful for you both, so dialing back on it may remove some of that stress. Had you and your partner talked about making that a boundary within your relationship prior to taking a break?

Can you give me a sense of what you each wanted to work on/figure out as part of "taking a break" from the relationship? Were those things related to non-sexual parts of the relationship as well as the sexual parts?

It sounds like you have been trying to find ways to meet your emotional needs that don't solely rely on your partner, which is a really good step to take. Do those feelings of being wanted, and of being deserving of love, arise when you spend time with friends? And do you feel like you have a strong support network in terms of your transition outside of your partner? Or are they the main person who's been supporting you through it?

You're right that transitioning from a romantic relationship to a platonic one can be really tricky. Often, the people who manage to do it have a time period where they take a break from seeing or interacting with each other to help any turmoil caused by the shift die down. Too, the circumstances that lead to shift also matter; if there was some pretty heavy stuff going on, it might take more time to move to comfortably being friends, whereas an ending that was "meh, nothing is super-wrong, we just work better together as friends" may be able to transition more smoothly.

[BuddyBoi21]

Hey Sam,

Yes!! I 100% agree with you and my partner and I have discussed this prior to our break.

The boundaries established were that my partner did not want to be touched in more intimate ways for the time being whereas I (at first) didn't really care about any sort of touch. I just told myself that I'm able to control myself, that sexual arousal was natural and I wanted to learn how to feel that desire without acting on it instead of allowing myself to feel fear and physically withdraw from my partner. Now that may change because I recognize I'm still struggling. Overall, we both agreed sex would not happen until we were both emotionally and mentally in healthier place with one another.

For non-sexual, my partner simply wanted to get their mental health in order; they clarified that at this point that their current mental health bump was NOT my fault or had anything to do with the incident. They wanted to work on their mental health and dealing with being in college along with other life changes. They feel they have successfully moved on.

As for myself, I wanted to work on both non-sexual and sexual.
I proceeded to put my energy into even more research on my guilt, venting to trusted friends, counselors, therapists and even calling prevention hotlines to keep myself afloat with my guilt. I still feel bad about this to a thankfully much smaller degree than what I did initially but some pain. A part of me feels as though it's all my fault, that my partner no longer cares and that I've ruined everything but I clearly recognize this part of me is highly irrational which is why I'm doing all I can to seek help.

As for my sexual-related problems, I'm so happy I found this site because I wanted someome to have much more inclusive and recent sex education. I wanted to find a resource that allowed for me to talk about my sexual shame, my gender identity, my sexuality, my masculinty and my gender dysphoria. I wanted to take this time to rid myself of these traumas, myths and stigmas so that way I continue growing with my partner in the best way possible.

As for spending time with my friends, it's usually a good distraction when away from my partner but I do tend to miss them a whole lot and often point out things that remind me of them since being on this break. I do feel a great sense of worth and care from my friends and am very grateful to have such wonderful people in my life.
Aside from my partner, my friends are extrememly supportive of my transition (theg wouldn't be my friends if they weren't), I also have a group of LGBTQ+ friends as well and they're really understanding and provide a lot of support for me. As for my immediate family, I'm out at home but my younger sister (who's 17) is the only person who's 110% supportive, next is my older brother (who's 23); he doesn't live at home anymore but he knows and is pretty laid back about it. As for my parents they know and use my pronouns but aren't reaply comfortable with the fact that I want to medically transition. They won't stop me but neither of them are openly supportive of that (also I am closer to my mother and my father doesn't evem know I'm dating this person). So from a general basis my support system is pretty great.

I know we could eventually drift away from one another but we really do want to do everything we can to move forward with one another.

I know it's difficult but I really want to give this a chance because external factors aside I really do care about them and I believe they care about me too.

[Sam W]

Got it, it sounds like you're doing a great job at nurturing relationships with people other than your partner, which is something that will be really helpful for your well-being both in the short and the long term. With your therapist, if you've brought up these feelings of guilt recently, what kind of approaches have they suggested for dealing with it.

With your partner, did you two talk about what was needed to get back together again? In other words, it sounds like you both had things you wanted to work on before trying to continue a romantic relationship, but did you you discuss what concrete things had to happen before you were both comfortable trying again? I ask because both of you have some fairly complex things you want to work on, so it's quite possible that it would take a lot of time before you were both in a place where dating each other would be a sound step.

[BuddyBoi21]

With any counselor or therapist they've all said the same things; it was just a messy, mutual event and that my sexual desires are natural.

I have not had yet received a plan of action for thos issue in particular and have been talking about this in the sea of other life events that I've been streadily learned to cope with.

So with therapy no plan but I have developed a plan for now. Using thos sote and it's resources have been helpul to me thus far. My partner and I discussed that we needed to separately cope with our feelings and problems and regroup at a later point.
My partner is simply doing what they can to cope with their depression and get a better adjust to college. I haven't asked for details because I want to give them their space.

As for myself, I openly expressed I was seeking positive sex education and therapy.
They don't know that I've found this site or the book that Heather wrote but I'm very excited to share that with them.

I'm also doing my best to seek therapy and discuss my own mental health because a few close friends with depression and even my own partner who has depression felt that I needed counseling for something I have not yet received a diagnosis for.

Pretty much if we are both well, we'll try to move forward in the relationship and start from there.

The place would be not engaging in sexual behaviors but workimg more on reconnecting with one another until we communicate openly about when we're ready to proceed toward that again.

I'm going to make sure before having this conversation that I will have progressed significantly with my own traumas as well as check in with my partner on their own progress and mental health before proceeding in that area.

Again, we both want things to be well individually before moving forward.

[Sam W]

It sounds like you both are taking some big steps to look after your own well-being. Something I would be cautious with is your expectations for what "well" looks like. Things like trauma and mental illness can often take a lot of time to learn how to manage in a way that works for an individual person. And, the rough reality is that even if, for example, a mental illness is being managed effectively a person may still have rough patches. Dealing with mental illness or trauma is much more like a roller coaster than it is a linear progression. Again, I don't say that to try and stress you out, but right now it sounds like you both may be envisioning a process where you find ways to manage your traumas and mental illnesses and then things only get better or stay stable from there, when it's very likely that if you did get back together you'd need to be prepared for those issues to possibly flare up again. Does that make sense?

With the break you and your partner are taking, are you two basically acting as friends, with a decent amount of contact? Or are you having minimal interactions with each other?

[BuddyBoi21]

Hey Sam, this is very understandable. Relationships and mental illness are both difficult things to deal with and things won't always be sunshine and rainbows but I know that as hard as it is that it is worth while to us both.

It's why we are doing this. It does make sense issues will flair up, maybe the same ones or even different ones but I'm okay with that, as is my partner.

My partner and I have had minimal contact during our break. Even though I miss them they stressed how important it was to have the time they needed to get themself in order. They do check in on me weekly which I greatly appreciate since I miss them.

Other than that things have been taken day by day for myself and I feel a lot calmer by having help sort through everything going on.

Do you have any other advice for me?

[Sam W]

Glad to hear you've been feeling calmer . It's less about me having more advice for you and more about if there are any other things you'd like advice or information on right now (it's okay if the answer's no). Are there any other things you'd like to ask about?

[BuddyBoi21]

I've heard this is normal, especially since situations can get tough and people can get lonely, but how doed one navigate a crush while still in a relationship?

I recognize logically that I love my current partner and that I know them better but I still don't understand exactly why I can be attracted to other people/get crushes when I'm still interested in my partner.

The crush is this really cute and charming girl I met on a campus retreat I just got home from (which is why my messages have been sporadic these last few days).

I complimentes her eye makeup because it was purple and I thought it looked nice. I introduced myself as leader of a club and brought up our upcoming events. In response she told me she was a lesbian and I was (strangely???) let down. As we talked and hung around each other I noticed she was friendly but couldn't exactly make sense on whether or not she was (probably?) flirting until later on. She would scoot closer to me if she could, would be very attentive to me and would get close in my personal bubble (like close enough where I feel it's close enough to kiss). I payed attention to my own behaviors and I knew that I craved affection but not necessarily to the point where I'd leave the current relationship or overstep any boundaries and pursue a new one with this girl I knew for a little less than two days.

My partner and I have established that it's okay to cuddle friends and seek out platonic affection if that helps. I was okay with this and I knew (at the time) I had a weird relationship with it for myself because I was still very weird about platonic affection. So I typically seeked the affection from guy/masculine friends over girl/feminine friends due to that weirdness over it. My partner doesn't care who I cuddle as long as it's just that.

For the longest time I confused crushes (infatuation) with genuinely liking a person so it's why I avoided femme/women cuddle buddies, for fear of becoming attached to them in a romantic way, at least until this weekend.

I openly mentioned to this new friend that I happen to find attractive that I was in a relationship but since we are longer distance that the previously mentioned arrangement was made. So I then asked her to be my cuddle buddy and she said yes.

So if we had any downtime between the camp activities and our separate groups could mix we would hang around one another, cuddle and talk. I had fun but of course people talk and we did recieve a question on the bus ride home about how long we had known each other and whether or not we were dating.

It was awkward and a bit embarrassing but also a bit funny since this same situation happened to another pair of friends from the last year I went on this retreat (they were mutually interested but ended up not dating one another due to core value differences). The question was left unanswered since the situation sounds messy.

Anyway when we get back to the campus and head to our cars, I walk her to her car and sit down inside amd we talk about everything again. I directly asked if she was okay with our situation and she said she was cool with it. We also proceeded to talk about dating, long term partners, where we personally stood on those topics and where I was with my current partner. She consistently joked throughout the retreat about what a shame it was that I was taken including in this conversation.

I then honestly admitted I thought she was pretty but depite that "initial chemistry" that I was taken, geuinely cared about my partner and wanted to wait out the current situation. But I did say that if for whatever reason, things came to an end between my partner and I, and she were still single, that I'd be open to having a casual, solely sexual/platonic relationship (f**k buddies).

When discussing why, I mentioned it was beacuse she was a lesbian whereas I was a nonbinary trans person who planned to medically transition. I didn't know how things would work out past a physical relationship because she mentioned she was interested in men sexually but not emotionally. But when we talked about it more it turned out she may be better described as pansexual and just isn't attracted to people with trash personalities and is picker with cisgender, straight men she involves herself with.

She also (not so lightly hinted at throughout the weekend and) outright admitted in the conversation that she was interested in me and was just single a lot. So afterward she gave me two big hugs and told me she thought I was really cute and that she would attend my club meeting still.

I said goodbye and I honestly throughtout all of this felt some flattery and a bit of confidence boost. At the same time though I recognize this situation could be potetially awkward or rise a lot of questions and rumors around my campus because college can be gossipy and nosy as well.

I do recognize that this person is very pretty, just so happens to be charming and meets me when I'm in a sort of "vacation" mode but I know this might be a weird rest of the term with sort of feeling buzzing around.

The more I think about it the more sure I am that I'll be fine but still it does feel a bit odd. Is this a normal thing to feel or that people in longer term relationships experience?

[Siân]

Hi BuddyBoi

You're right, it is totally normal to have crushes whether we're in a relationship or not. It can be fun and harmless and really not a major problem as long as you respect boundaries - both of your crush and of your partner - which it sounds like you've been doing.

In general, if you have a crush and are in an exclusive relationship my advice is to notice it and let it be, maybe even enjoy some of those feelings without doing anything about them. They're not going to undermine a healthy relationship unless made into a Thing e.g. by pursuing that crush, blaming our partner for being imperfect or panicing that this somehow means the end. Does that make sense?

I do want to note though that you've talked a lot about the struggles of your current relationship, and sometimes (not always, but sometimes) I think we get crushes when some part of us is trying to remind us that we don't have to stay in an unhappy relationship, that there are other people out there that we might find interesting and might feel the same about us. That doesn't mean we should hop from one relationship to another - it's often better to take some time out for ourselves after a breakup, whether we're crushing on someone or not - just that there is more than one person in the world that we could be happy with. What do you think?