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Heather
scarleteen founder & director
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Re: ?

Unread postby Heather » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:54 pm

I don't see how we can really interact with or respond to these kinds of posts in a productive way, unicyu.

For one, when we haven't had a chance to answer, piling on more posts makes it so that when we do get here, there's just too much to tackle at once. It's much better to make one post, then wait until someone responds, okay?

But in terms of the content of these posts, I'm not sure what you're really wanting from us with them, or, tbh, how serious you even are in some of them, like the post about the snake. I feel like we've been pretty clear about what we can and can't do here, but if you need more clarity on that, let's talk about it. If we're not understanding you, can you perhaps give us some help here, and give us an idea of what you're really looking for in interactions here?
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

unicyu
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Re: ?

Unread postby unicyu » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:25 pm

like he was like whispering sexual shit in my ear and it like tickled and i wanted him to stop but he kept doing it. is that like sexual assault or harassment. we were playing beforehand. he said he was joking with me too because me and him were like kissing each others neck and all that to make each other feel some type of way

Siân
scarleteen staff/volunteer
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Re: ?

Unread postby Siân » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:32 am

What would you specifically like help with here unicyu? It sounds like you have a lot of concerns about this relationship, and you've said before that you'd like to learn to have healthier relationships - what have you been doing to achieve that?

unicyu
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Re: ?

Unread postby unicyu » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:22 am

we found better ways to argue like for me i dont cuss at each other and we try ro talk more rather than argue and i was asking if thts sexual assault/harassment

Alice M.
scarleteen staff/volunteer
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Re: ?

Unread postby Alice M. » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:52 am

You're asking if arguing in a better way is sexual harassment?

unicyu
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Re: ?

Unread postby unicyu » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm

no with the whispering thing in my ear that i mentioned. me and him were like joking and flirting and i was kissing his neck and so was he then he started whispering dirty stuff in my ear and i was like stoppp and he kept doinng it and he said he was kidding cause we were messing around but idk

Alice M.
scarleteen staff/volunteer
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My Awesomeness Quotient: my boundaries
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Location: Seattle

Re: ?

Unread postby Alice M. » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:25 pm

It's never okay to keep touching someone when they say no. At this point, it sounds both of you are having trouble respecting each other's boundaries and we have explained this to you multiple times. Trying to label each specific event as "bad" isn't seeming particularly helpful for you. How can we help you, going forward, in a way that's productive for you?

unicyu
not a newbie
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Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:53 pm
My Awesomeness Quotient: athleticism
My primary language: english
My pronouns: she
My sexual identity and orientation: bi curious
Location: bmore

Re: ?

Unread postby unicyu » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:00 pm

is like tapping or semi slapping someone hand away from u abuse? cause i was going to fix his collar and he like slapped my arm away, not hard but to uk redirect it and i said what was that for and he said sorry i thought u were going to pull on my chest hairs. then his cousin put some leafy stuff on me then he brushed it off my leg but it was hard like is that bad? then we were in the street and i didnt want him touching my waist so i kept sayin stoo but he like kept doing it to push me in front of him in the street because "to push me out of the way if a car comes"

unicyu
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Location: bmore

Re: ?

Unread postby unicyu » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:54 pm

and like with all i told you, like why shouldnt i tell the police like of his sexual assaults. they werent ill mannered ke violent but still uk

Heather
scarleteen founder & director
Posts: 7182
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:43 am
My Awesomeness Quotient: I know every word of The Lorax by heart.
My primary language: english
My pronouns: they/them
My sexual identity and orientation: queery-queer-queer
Location: Chicago

Re: ?

Unread postby Heather » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:45 am

Unicyu:

I will respond to these last two posts in a little bit, but I want to start by doing something that feels very necessary with you at this point. There are several problematic patterns in these posts and our interactions with you, very much including that you don't seem to actually want any of the kinds of help we can actually offer or help you find, and that you don't seem to want or to be able to participate in conversations with us in ways that are productive for anyone.

I have gone ahead this morning and taken a solid hour to go back through all of your posts, including because I was looking for what you even mean when you are now saying sexual assaults here. I have taken notes and done summaries of all of your posts and most of our interactions with them so far, in the hopes that looking at it all summarized on one page, in one place, might help both of us. It may help us, as staff, to not get lost in what often feels like a bunch of conflicting statements as well as with blitzes of posts done in rapid and quick succession -- some of which often cancel each other out with conflicting information -- and it may, hopefully, help you to see what this looks like on our end, and in the big picture, not just in a handful of things you come and drop here in a rush.

After I post this -- and get myself another cup of coffee, because this is a LOT, friend -- I will come back and address the last couple things you've posted as best I can.

* * *
March 4th - 10th: In your first post, you reported that two weeks previous, you were in an argument/mad at him and he tried to kiss you and you pushed him off. You said this has happened multiple times and until now you thought it was okay. You say he also tickles you when you say no, but you also say things have changed and he is improving with boundaries. In this same thread you say these kinds of things have been going on for a year. You also say you very much want to stay in this relationship, and that he has been responsive to your asking him for better boundaries around these things.

You post in the same week that during sexual things you asked for and consented to, you were nodding off later and asked if it was okay. Ewe said it was so long as a partner stops if and when we do fall asleep, and you say your partner did. You mention in this same thread he has recently once accidentally kissed you without asking but took responsibility.

March 11th - 16th: You report a history of your partner holding you or grabbing you when he doesn’t want you to leave bed or when he doesn’t want you to leave. You say you responded to this by telling him to get off you, yanking your arm away and leaving. We make clear anyone using physical force to keep someone where they want them isn’t okay.

You also say that you have been accusing your boyfriend of cheating all the time, faking sleep to play an emotional game, and then pushing your body on him when he asked you to get off. You report having slapped him, pushed him and name-called him often.

At this point, I mention that this doesn’t sound like a healthy relationship or like you two even like each other. I make clear you have described yourself doing as many problematic, potentially or clearly abusive things as he has. I say I don’t think this is a good relationship for either of you to stay in.

Your response is to say most of what you have mentioned is in the past, to say you want to still be in this. You say you’re then taking a break to work on these things. You ask if it’s possible to change with work, and several of us engage in a long back and forth with you over many posts (and threads later) where we talk about what that work would need to be, and you mostly give us reasons you can’t do the work or just avoid the questions or suggestions by asking over and over if we think you can fix this. We continue to maintain that if you or your boyfriend don’t actually do the things that would allow you to repair it, then no, we do not. We continue to give you resources to read (that it doesn’t seem like you’re reading). You also go back again to saying all of this is in the past.

You also report calling a sexual assault hotline, about an incident you describe here he was touching your anus in a pool, and stopped when you told him to stop. You say this was a long time ago and was about you two just not having set boundaries - though later on in the post seem to suggest you did ask about doing this and that this wasn’t unwanted or maybe didn’t even really happen the way you first described — and that once those were set, things like this all stopped.

Again, you initiate a conversation about this if we think this can work, and we say the same kinds of things we have been saying and make the same kinds of suggestions about what to do. You say your relationship is actually very good.

Then right at the same time, you report that he is controlling. You say he asks why you are wearing makeup in accusatory ways, that he accuses you of cheating like you have him, that if you are arguing he grabs you. You talk about how both of you are very jealous with each other about other people. Then you say he said (we can only assume in the present tense) he is threatening to kill himself to see if you cared (and then apologized). I make another post to you making clear, again, all that is obviously unhealthy in this relationship and that you both obviously need intervention or help. I/we try to get you connected with help resources, but you basically blow us off for a week.

March 24th - 28th: You come back saying everything is better, but then launch into talking about how he is touching you not EXACTLY as you want. When Sam tries again to connect you with actual help, you keep circling around to this. We make clear that partners cannot read minds and if we only want partners to do something in a certain way, we have to be specific about what that is. You go back to asking if we think this really can work, again without really addressing some of the help and resources we’re trying to give you. I mention I think you’re being avoidant by continuing to ask us this and not actually doing or looking into the things that might help you out. I say it isn’t productive to keep asking us about things then quickly dismissing what we say because you say those things are in the past. We try and set some limits with you around this.

You come back to talking about the touch in the pool, and say you also don’t even know what you were feeling, and don’t really remember any of this. I restate the limit I have asked for around this pattern with you of discussing things you say are in the past. I ask for you to read some information and then talk about that with us. You respond a tiny bit to that.

March 30th - April 5th: You go right back to the pattern of asking us about minor things you think are boundary violations, like him rubbing your finger and you saying stop and grabbing him but then saying it just felt weird. In this same conversation you talk about your history of mutual verbal abuse with name-calling. In a couple posts, you say this is current, not in the past. When staff try to address it, you go back to asking if we think this will work, then more reports of you two clashing over minor and mutual boundary violations. Several staff try to see if they can help you access counseling, but you stonewall them.

April 6th - 7th: You post a report of what you say was wanted sexual activity, but include a bunch of small things that weren’t exactly what you wanted, but that you also don’t sound like you communicated for your partner to know. You say you were okay with these things, but ask us if they are bad. Then you say he was on you when you asked him to get off again. The next day, you post about both of you apparently torturing a snake and you asked us if your boyfriend was a murderer. You then also asked us if him flicking water at you is harassment. I made clear I couldn’t even tell if these posts were for real or in earnest, and mentioned that the volume of posts you were making very quickly was not at a level we could respond to productively. I asked you to take a minute to reflect with us on what you actually are looking for and want from us here.

April 13th - today: Your next post ignored those questions and requests. Instead, you came back reporting him whispering sexual things in your ear when you didn’t want him to, though you also seemed to have said that he felt this was wanted because you were engaging in mutually wanted sexual play at the time. You ask if it is harassment or assault. Siân comes back again asking you what I did: about what and how you want us to help here and what you are looking for. She checks in about what you’ve been doing to make things healthier, and you say you found better ways to argue and cuss less, then go back to asking if this (vague thing about whispering we couldn’t possibly answer this for) is assault.

Now you’re asking if tapping or slapping someone off of you when you don’t want them touching you (in this case, him slapping you away) is abuse. And right after, asking if you should report him to the police for apparent sexual assaults.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

unicyu
not a newbie
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:53 pm
My Awesomeness Quotient: athleticism
My primary language: english
My pronouns: she
My sexual identity and orientation: bi curious
Location: bmore

Re: ?

Unread postby unicyu » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:44 am

well should i report? i asked my friend and she said what he did wasnt intentional to be harmful so no but idk

unicyu
not a newbie
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:53 pm
My Awesomeness Quotient: athleticism
My primary language: english
My pronouns: she
My sexual identity and orientation: bi curious
Location: bmore

Re: ?

Unread postby unicyu » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:07 pm

and he whispered dirty stuff in my ear like performing oral on me cause its like my sweet spot ig

Heather
scarleteen founder & director
Posts: 7182
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:43 am
My Awesomeness Quotient: I know every word of The Lorax by heart.
My primary language: english
My pronouns: they/them
My sexual identity and orientation: queery-queer-queer
Location: Chicago

Re: ?

Unread postby Heather » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:29 pm

I see that you have left a couple posts while I stepped away. I had a meeting, and then I have been taking a considerable amount of time to try and respond to all of this well, which is complicated and which I'm finding to be really challenging and difficult. I hope you'll know I'm trying very hard to do my best, but I also recognize that my best just might not be good enough or even totally possible in this situation.

and like with all i told you, like why shouldnt i tell the police like of his sexual assaults. they werent ill mannered ke violent but still uk

Real talk, here. Honestly, I feel like this post from you truly may tell us -- us here at Scarleten, but also maybe you -- all we need to know.

We have suggested several times now that this relationship is not healthy (nor either of you), may not be safe (also for either of you), and at the very least, seems super toxic (for both of you). I have said that it sounds like you both behave sometimes like people who don't even like one another that much. We have suggested more than once that getting out of this relationship seems like the best thing you could do.

Never once have you suggested -- even when we have checked in about it -- that you don't feel safe with this person. You consistently have argued that you absolutely want to stay with them, and will not even talk about how to try and change things for the better a lot if the time because you just want to focus on if this relationship can continue without a breakup.

And yet, here you are asking if you should report your boyfriend to the police for sexual assault.

Why would you do that? You make it very clear you feel safe with him, including that you wantingly and willingly choose to go and be with him all the time, including choosing to initiate being sexual with him on the regular. You say over and over that you don't want to break up and how much you want to be with him. You tell us often, when we try and talk with you about abuse concerns, after you post things that cause that kind of concern, that anything that isn't good is in the past. I also have yet to see you actually post anything about his behavior that seems like it actually describes sexual assault, but now you are saying, it seems, he has assaulted you more than once. The couple times it has seemed like assault may have happened, you've either added details that make it seem clear that it didn't, or have yourself denied that something was assault.

With all your post history in front of me, and everything I can glean from it, there are only two likely reasons I can see you calling the police on your boyfriend, if this is even an earnest thing you are considering in the first place. It may well be that this or even many of your posts have been about you trolling us, that's one possibility. But assuming that isn't what's happening here (and I hope it isn't), I see two likely options:

1) You are wanting to report him as a way to engage in a kind of harassment or abuse of your own of your boyfriend. If you don't feel unsafe with this person and you want to be with them, and you aren't only staying with them because you are afraid for your safety to leave -- something I've never heard you suggest even once -- I can only see calling the police and reporting them for assault as a way to try and punish or control or otherwise abuse this person. If this is the case, this is all pretty much in like with my sense of this whole relationship, which is that it's no good for anyone, and that you BOTH engage in a lot of toxic and at least emotionally abusive behaviour with each other.

2) Or, because there truly has been abuse going on -- and is perhaps happening still -- you know is abuse, and you haven't been honest with us about a lot of things, and may even have misrepresented some things. Sometimes people in abuse feel and get very confused, including about their own conflicting feelings, and sometimes people in abuse also feel so ashamed and afraid, so what they say can be full of truths, half-truths but also outright falsehoods, and also feel like it doesn't make a lot of sense, often because that person's denial as well as ways they have been gaslighted have got THEM feeling completely spun. Too, just because something is abusive or otherwise bad doesn't mean people still can't be very attached to it.

If either of those options are what's true, my advice is the same for both: this relationship is no good. I would suggest you end this relationship and get away from it. If you feel at all at risk of violence from your boyfriend if you break up, I'd suggest you first work on and ready a solid safety plan, something you can get help with from our site here.

It's not really sound for us to be telling someone what is and isn't abuse as the authority of that experience, which is one thing we have kept trying to tell you over the last month or so you've been posting. Ultimately, it's only you who are the right person to answer for that, and we've given you more than enough information, I think, about what is and isn't healthy and what is and isn't abusive here for you to make that call.

That said, because you keep asking, and because no matter what it feels like we try to get you to both recognize and respect our limits, and work with us in the ways we can, I do feel like it's appropriate for me to voice my gut feels here. I get the strong impression that neither of you have been emotionally safe in this relationship, and it hasn't been at all healthy, but I also don't think either one of you are probably in danger with a breakup. In fact, my gut feeling and sense of things is that BOTH of you are much more in danger by staying in this and interacting with each other the way you do. I even feel like some of the ways you have been using consent information and tools have sometimes sounded to me like ways to try and control your partner than ways to create a healthier sexual and otherwise physical relationship together.

I personally think a breakup is the safest, smartest thing for both of you, and probably the only thing that gives you both a start at NOT having your intimate relationships always be like this one is.

Staying in something that is, at best, a total trainwreck -- and at worst is abusive in several ways -- especially when you're both this young and everything can set so many lasting patterns in motion, isn't a choice in alignment with either of your well-being or with learning to form and nurture healthy relationships.

I also get the feeling that one or both of you lack the level of emotional maturity for the kind of intimacy you've been taking part in. It also feels like both of you may come from environments that are either abusive or dysfunctional, so a lot of the behaviours that have been going on here probably have seemed normal and fine even though they're not.

I do worry that one of these days, one of you IS going to earnestly really hurt the other in a bigger way than anyone has been hurt so far. Abuse usually escalates, and again, both of you have been engaging in emotional, verbal and even some physical abuses, based on what you have posted.

And of course, if you believe, think or know, based on what you have learned about sexual abuse and assault, and on your experience, that your boyfriend has sexually assaulted you or anyone else, then yes, reporting those crimes to the police is one very appropriate option.

I know all that's not what you want to hear, especially the breakup bits, but it's what I've got based on all you have told me, what I think of all that, and what I know. Obviously, you can, of course, take it or leave it.

At this point, I also think we need to recognize that our direct services -- the boards, at least, anyway -- obviously aren't a great fit for you and just don't seem to be working. I have ideas about other avenues of help that would be better for you, and also want to set some extra limits if you're going to keep using the boards, but I'm afraid I just don't have any more time or bandwith today to talk about those. I can come back to talk about that tomorrow, though, if you'd like.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


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