the "-phobia" problem

Questions and discussion about sex and sexuality in political or community beliefs, principles, actions, policies, experiences, messages and media.
bikinksterboy
not a newbie
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:32 pm
Age: 22
Awesomeness Quotient: my willingness to try essentially anything
Primary language: English
Pronouns: he/him
Sexual identity: bisexual
Location: New York, New York

the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by bikinksterboy »

am I the only one who feels like we need better words than homophobia, transphobia etc? like fear is an element of it but I feel like somehow it doesn't accurately describe the true hatred some have, and serves as ammo for people to pointlessly debate
Laima
not a newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:01 pm
Age: 25
Awesomeness Quotient: I like to salsa dance
Primary language: English
Pronouns: she/her
Sexual identity: Straight/Cis Female
Location: NJ

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by Laima »

Hi BiKinksterBoy,

I think a good choice of words for describing LGBTQ+ discrimination could be "hetero-sexist" and "cis-sexist." Since they end in "-ist" (like as in "racist," sexist," "ableist," etc), these terms indicate not only the fear/hatred of LGBTQ+ individuals, but also a feeling of superiority as heterosexuals/cis-people.
Redskies
previous staff/volunteer
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:33 am
Primary language: English
Pronouns: they/them or she/her
Sexual identity: bisexual/queer/pansexual
Location: Europe

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by Redskies »

I'd often say that we need better words for many, many things! Historically and into the present, a lot of language - or, more specifically, most language which is given status, is recorded, is spread - is created and controlled by people with power and status. Which means that groups without power and status don't get represented at all, or get represented through the viewpoint of other powerful groups, which can be very skewed. (... eg, "eligible spinster" vs. "eligible bachelor"; "master" (of a trade?) vs. "mistress" (of a man?); "sir" vs."madam" (a sex worker?)? Language is sexist, because humans made it so.)

But not to digress too much! Yes, it drives me up the wall when people say that "homophobia" is "fear of homosexuality/gay people". No, that's not what that word means! There are many, many words which never/no longer mean their literal component parts. It's particularly absurd here because "hydrophobic" molecules are certainly not afraid of water; the term describes their behaviour with water molecules. But bigots will be bigots and argue that the moon is made of cheese, if it serves them. I think in this case the word doesn't really help the situation - this "fear" thing matters, as hateful people use it as an "excuse" to justify violence. But at the same time, I'm not sure that changing the language here would help greatly: my (unscientific!) guess would be that bigots use this as a handy excuse and would find something else, and it's not so much that this language is heavily blinkering and restricting people's worldviews.

Laima, that's interesting that "heterosexist" etc denote hatred to you. I'm familiar with their use to indicate prejudice and discrimination - and find them extremely useful! - but not familiar with the added meaning of hatred. For example, I'd think of "sexism" = "prejudice/discrimination on the grounds of sex/gender", and "misogyny" = "hatred of women"; parallel "heterosexism" = prejudice/discrimination on the grounds of orientation, het-superiority", and "homophobia" = "hatred of queerness/homosexuality/LGBQ people, anti-gay". Perhaps this is somewhere where we're seeing a language change happening? Perhaps even partly in response to the imperfect "-phobia"? (The apparent pattern of "-ism" vs. something else doesn't hold even for me, though: for a start, I can't think of a separate word to denote hatred of disabled people, and I'd certainly say that "white supremacism" is hateful. So! Language is never simple :) )

I'd be interested to know how other people experience these words!
The kyriarchy usually assumes that I am the kind of woman of whom it would approve. I have a peculiar kind of fun showing it just how much I am not.
Heather
scarleteen founder & director
Posts: 9533
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:43 am
Age: 53
Awesomeness Quotient: I have been a sex educator for over 25 years!
Primary language: english
Pronouns: they/them
Sexual identity: queery-queer-queer
Location: Chicago

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by Heather »

I'm a bit torn with this, since often hate and bias do often psychologically come from fear, especially fear of the unknown. We have study about all kinds of bias that show what helps people unlearn bias most is simply direct exposure to the groups they have bias towards.

But I hear you. It isn't always fear, and when fear is in the mix, that's not always all that is.

Others approaches that have been increasing in use is to use longhand instead of short - to say, for example, "bias and bigotry towards homosexuals," or "discrimination against transgender people," - or using -ism or -ist, like Laima and Redskies mentioned.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
Redskies
previous staff/volunteer
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:33 am
Primary language: English
Pronouns: they/them or she/her
Sexual identity: bisexual/queer/pansexual
Location: Europe

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by Redskies »

I agree with Heather about fear of the unknown often underlying bias! Jumping off BiKinksterBoy's "serves as ammo for people to pointlessly debate", I was thinking of the times bigots have argued that something or someone isn't homophobic "because they're not afraid of gay people", or words to that effect. That kind of (flawed!) word-arguing.
The kyriarchy usually assumes that I am the kind of woman of whom it would approve. I have a peculiar kind of fun showing it just how much I am not.
WingsOfRazgriz
not a newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:39 pm
Age: 24
Awesomeness Quotient: Hard Worker, Nice
Primary language: English
Pronouns: he/him
Sexual identity: male, attack helicopter
Location: Missouri

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by WingsOfRazgriz »

I don't think we need to create new labels to insult people with. It needs to stop. If we keep throwing labels and insults around we can not truly make progress.
Jacob
scarleteen staff/volunteer
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:33 am
Age: 35
Primary language: English
Pronouns: They
Location: Leeds UK

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by Jacob »

"Homophobia" describes a bunch of behavior which is pretty insulting indeed, and can involve a bunch of name-calling. It happens whether it is named or not... however naming it gives us a way to talk about it, teach about it and hopefully fight it.

All words are labels when you think about it so 'stopping labels' is not really something we can or should do. We can't stop people from having words, because that's how we speak!
"In between two tall mountains there's a place they call lonesome.
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
WingsOfRazgriz
not a newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:39 pm
Age: 24
Awesomeness Quotient: Hard Worker, Nice
Primary language: English
Pronouns: he/him
Sexual identity: male, attack helicopter
Location: Missouri

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by WingsOfRazgriz »

I am talking about labeling people. Instead of discussing we put people under a label to avoid discussing with them. For example with Donald Trump supporters. Its very easy to label anyone who voted for him as a racist, homophobe, islamophobe, misogynist, etc. And doing this will cause the opposite affect, and is why Donald Trump won the elections.
Heather
scarleteen founder & director
Posts: 9533
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:43 am
Age: 53
Awesomeness Quotient: I have been a sex educator for over 25 years!
Primary language: english
Pronouns: they/them
Sexual identity: queery-queer-queer
Location: Chicago

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by Heather »

We're not going to be able to support any idea here that people should stop talking about ways they are oppressed and done active and institutionalized harm. This isn't about insulting anyone or avoidance: it's about words so we can talk about oppressive or harmful beliefs and behaviors, and in this space, that impact many of us, to cope, to protect ourselves when needed, to survive, honestly. Part of what we do here is help support people suffering oppression (and that often includes our staff) by providing a supportive place to talk about it. And to talk about it, we need words.

By all means, describing someone's oppressive behaviors or beliefs are upsetting to everyone involved, and don't make anyone feel good. That's going to be the case no matter what words someone uses about it.

It's also vital you recognize that it's actually often deeply unsafe, and has sometimes even been fatal, for, for example, a gay person to engage with someone virulently homophobic. Or for someone of color to directly engage with a white supremacist. So, just talking to that person (or institution, or populace) about it is asking a lot more of the oppressed person than the person being oppressive. Which is obviously problematic.

But please do support the way we choose to run our space here. You may not have intended it, but what you said here sounds a lot like silencing that - like saying we should just shut talk of people who engage in oppression amongst ourselves down - and that just isn't okay to do here. Thanks.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
WingsOfRazgriz
not a newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:39 pm
Age: 24
Awesomeness Quotient: Hard Worker, Nice
Primary language: English
Pronouns: he/him
Sexual identity: male, attack helicopter
Location: Missouri

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by WingsOfRazgriz »

My comment was a bit short-sighted or wrongly worded, but I hope you can understand where I am coming from. The amount of mudslinging the goes on these days is absolutely insane, and people need sit down and discuss these issues. I think my little rant was more about that.
Jacob
scarleteen staff/volunteer
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:33 am
Age: 35
Primary language: English
Pronouns: They
Location: Leeds UK

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by Jacob »

Hey Wings!

I appreciate your reflecting on previous comments!

I still think it'll be useful to break down 'mudslinging' a bit. I've seen that word used to describe everything from racist slurs and sexism, to healthy political debate a description.

We shouldn't be scared to talk about our own ingraned racism and sexism, and reflect on those things. If we start to think of 'racist' or 'homophobic' as a slur rather than a description that is really just a way of defending ourselves and avoiding self-reflection. It also means we make ourselves a victim when the bigger systems of oppression could very much be working in our general favour.

As an example, I live in the UK we have been responsible for colonising most of the earth, the deaths of millions of people and the ripples of trauma that still resonate in the world today. If someone said "The UK is Racist"... I could say "That's mean" or whatnot. I might even be hurt that they think that about me. But my hurt, is nothing compared to the ruins of war and poverty felt by those affected by what this country has done, and which I still benefit from. The worst thing for me to say would be "don't call it racist" or "don't call me racist" because that is just silencing the conversation. The best thing to do is to say "Yes you are right, what can I do about it". Then we can make things better.
"In between two tall mountains there's a place they call lonesome.
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
bikinksterboy
not a newbie
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:32 pm
Age: 22
Awesomeness Quotient: my willingness to try essentially anything
Primary language: English
Pronouns: he/him
Sexual identity: bisexual
Location: New York, New York

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by bikinksterboy »

the thing is though, how do we get people to see that being racist sexist etc is not necessarily a marker of "100% pure evil don't ever do anything with this person"?
bikinksterboy
not a newbie
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:32 pm
Age: 22
Awesomeness Quotient: my willingness to try essentially anything
Primary language: English
Pronouns: he/him
Sexual identity: bisexual
Location: New York, New York

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by bikinksterboy »

because this seems to be an almost double standard: if the whole zero-tolerance-for-bigotry thing is in effect but we also don't want to use these words as slurs then how do we get people to change? like what I've seen in effect is "this person is racist. therefore all their opinions are no longer valid because we know they are racist" and I'm confused how this helps said bigoted people to change
Jacob
scarleteen staff/volunteer
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:33 am
Age: 35
Primary language: English
Pronouns: They
Location: Leeds UK

Re: the "-phobia" problem

Unread post by Jacob »

I think that's on us really and learning to be the change when we can balance it with self-care. So sometimes we do have the energy to engage with people compassionately who are lashing out and being bigoted whereas at other times we really need to be safe and step away from those situations because they can be very painful.

I will say, for my part, as a youth worker, I am really happy to debate racist views 1-to-1 with a young person as part of my job, and part of my emotional work, I really feel for them and everything they've been through to get to those views. But in my friendship circle I really don't have space for that because friendships are somewhere I need to feel safe. This is really different for each of us.

We each have different styles, a diversity of reactions is totally cool.

It also isn't on you or me to convince everyone. If you follow through with your beliefs, engage when you can, and disengage when you need to, people will eventually come along.

(PS, I wasn't saying not to use 'racist' as a slur, I was saything that it wasn't a slur and shouldn't be viewed as one)
"In between two tall mountains there's a place they call lonesome.
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic