Flirting?

[MusicNerd]

So yeah, didn't really know where to put this, but uh...... yeah, how does that whole flirting thing work?

Basically, I have anxiety mainly in dating and flirting-type situations. So, whenever I'm in a situation where I notice someone cute who may or may not want to talk to me, I usually don't have the guts to go over to them and start a conversation; and they usually don't come over to chat me up since I tend to be mistaken for straight in most settings (even in queer spaces!! it's so annoying *facepalm* ). And then when I do get a chance to talk with someone I find attractive? Well, eventually I'm told that I come off as super-nice and chill and someone who'd make a good friend (and usually I do end up being their friend)-- which, don't get me wrong, those are really great things and it's super cool to know that people appreciate me as a friend! But... that's not always what I'm going for, you know?

Because I tend to feel really stupid in these situations, I've talked myself out of dating for quite some time, but now I kinda wanna get back out there (but without online dating, since I've had some not-so-great experiences with that). So.... what do I do?

tl;dr - socially anxious queer chick is clueless about how the whole basic-social-interaction-known-as-flirting works, hasn't dated in a while, and could use some advice. Thanks!

[Mo]

Ithink one of the BIG things about flirting is that different folks have really different takes on it. There's definitely not one approach to flirting that everyone will 1) be receptive to and 2) even notice in the first place. Honestly, one of the biggest comments I hear about flirting from people I know & strangers alike is "I NEVER notice when someone's flirting with me!" So if you feel like you're putting yourself out there and no one's picking up on it, I think that's just a part of the process.

One of my partners said to me once that while some mutual friends were telling him "yes it's SO clear that you flirt with Mo" but he never thought of his conversations with me that way, because in his mind flirting was always something insincere that a person does to get something from someone else. I...don't agree with that at all, but I include it as an example of how different opinions on flirting and flirtatious behavior can be. He is, by my definition, super flirtatious when talking to me! But he never read it that way.

To me a basic definition of flirting is a low-key interaction that's demonstrating interest in another person. I think a big part of flirting is being able to hold a light and friendly conversation with someone, whether it's a person you're meeting for the first time or a cute friend you've had your eye on for a while. When I'm flirting, whether it's "recreational" or "serious" type flirting, I'm trying to show someone that I'm a friendly person, but not in a creepy way! I'm open for a conversation and if they want to participate in it, then great! And if not, I might be bummed but I don't push it.

It's not always easy to tell when someone is just being friendly vs. when they're sending out feelers about someone's romantic/sexual interest in them, and honestly I think bluntness will serve you well. If you're thinking about asking someone on a date it is going to be less confusing to say "would you like to go on a date with me?" than "do you want to hang out sometime?" which could mean a date or just buddies hanging out. Taking that step can be really stressful but it (along with polishing flirting skills in general) does get easier with practice. In my mind, dating is all about making connections with people, and the more connections you make, the greater your chances will be that one of them will turn out to be with someone who's interested in dating you.

[MusicNerd]

Hmm... see, in theory that all makes sense to me, but like I don't even know how to show interest in someone in-person without being a tongue-tied brain-farting mess. lol Like, I know how to be warm and friendly and become friends with someone, but anything more than that feels like trying to communicate with someone in a language I don't speak. I don't know if that makes any sense?

This is gonna sound totally stupid I know, but sometimes I think that maybe I'm meant to only be a friend to people, period. I'm kinda like "you know, I'm pretty good at this whole being-a-friend thing-- at least my friends think so. So, maybe I should just stick to that, since that seems to be working a lot better for me." But then that also kinda scares me since I don't wanna limit myself in that way either when I meet someone I'm interested in....

Sorry I'm totally rambling, and your input is really great, so thanks so much for writing such a thorough response, Mo-- basically this is just complicated for me and I wish I was as socially apt as everyone else when it comes to this kinda stuff.

[Sam W]

Hi musicnerd,

I feel you on the feeling like flirting is a language I don't speak thing. Something that helped me was realizing that my way of flirting did not necessarily match the standard expectations of what flirting looked like (to this day, if I try to flirt in a classic, feminine way, I look awkward). And often, when I was/am flirting, I don't notice it until after because it feels like a comfortable conversation to me. Part of that comes with experience and practice, and like Mo said, people will respond differently to different flirting approaches. But focusing less on deliberately being flirty and more on just being active, engaged, and comfortable in the conversation you're having with someone you like can help you feel less awkward.

[MusicNerd]

mm, yeah that makes sense. thanks, Sam W.

hmm, maybe one day my friendly interest won't be perceived solely as platonic lol

[Kaizen]

So here's a thing to think about: when you say something like that, that you hope someone will see your interest in them as romantic, what do you imagine that looking like? Like, what would they do or say to show that?

[MusicNerd]

good question! hmm.... well, I guess I would think that they wouldn't say something like "you're a really great friend, MusicNerd" and then go out with other people they actually have a romantic interest in lol

[Kaizen]

Sucks when that happens, doesn't it?

I was more thinking, though, what would they do? What would be things that a person would do that would make you think, oh, they seem like they're interested in dating me? That might be a good way of figuring out what you can do to give the same message.

If on the other hand you don't picture them as doing anything different, just as not dating someone else, then maybe you really don't express romantic interest differently from friendly interest. Which doesn't mean you have to change your attitude (I never think it's a good idea to change your personality in order to attract someone), just that you might need to actually put your interest into words more explicitly.

[MusicNerd]

well... I guess I'd know someone was interested if they asked me out on a date or broke the touch barrier a bit or gave flirty compliments or even just by the way they look at me I'd kinda be able to tell as well. hmm, I guess you've got a point there, Kaizen... I don't seem to be very good at expressing my interest as anything other than friendship.

I guess I'm afraid of doing things to other people that I myself would interpret as interest mainly because:
1. vulnerability is scary (and even though I've gotten much better at handling it, it's still a struggle for me at times)
2. I'm super scared of coming off as creepy or intrusive of someone's boundaries if I show interest in any of those ways and they don't feel the same way. I guess now that I think about it I might be a bit biased because of a guy that stalked me a few years ago, but still... I'd feel absolutely awful if I made another person feel uncomfortable or unsafe because I showed interest in them.

like, I've shown interest in people in more obvious ways like the ones I listed above before (only very, very few times though) and whenever that's happened and they said "no, thanks" and disappeared off the face of the planet communication-wise, I always would worry about if I accidentally creeped them out or something.

[Heather]

Chances are they just weren't interested.

It might help to just remind yourself that you're not doing the things that guy was? Intent really is pretty much everything here, you know?

If it helps, anecdotally, I have certainly experienced my fair share of people flirting with me in ways that just didn't hit home with me, and it really is no big whoop. Even when some of those ways have felt a little bleck, when I can tell no one means me any disrespect or harm, but instead, it was mostly just social awkwardness or nervousness, it's very easy to shrug off and not take to a place in my head that isn't sound, in my experience.

[MusicNerd]

hey Heather! oh man, if only it could be as easy as trying to remind myself that I'm not doing what that guy was doing. lol

well, I guess I forget just how much of a role intent plays in these situations. okay, well... that does makes me feel a bit better about my chances of coming off as creepy being diminished quite a bit. haha I mean, it doesn't make me any less terrified to be more clear about expressing interest in someone, but it at least makes me feel better in other respects.

[Heather]

What's the worst that could happen? Just thinking and writing that out might be helpful.

[MusicNerd]

see, but like.... that requires logic and reason. lol

no, but really, that makes total sense to the rational part of my brain. but the irrational part just keeps feeling like it's a matter of pride, i suppose.

[Heather]

Pride in that you're fearing rejection? Or fearing simply showing you have an interest in someone?

[MusicNerd]

well, i have a fear of showing interest in someone, but that's probably due to some fear of rejection I have like you said (as well as a fear of closeness that i've improved on a lot, but am still admittedly working through... yeah, it's a really weird dichotomy). you'd think with the number of rejections i've gone through, i'd be used to it by now haha

[Heather]

Have you taken a gander at this piece yet?

http://www.scarleteen.com/article/polit ... ts_in_a_no

A lot of it is about sex, but nearly all of it can just as easily be applied to dating.

[MusicNerd]

I actually didn't know this piece existed, so thanks for that!

oh god, i got kinda nauseous looking at the "do not"s-- not because i've ever done them myself (good lord, no), but because the guy i was talking about before made me feel bad about calling him out on his creepy behavior and did some of those other things listed in the "do not" section.... *shudder*

but yeah, like logically i can be like "yeah, rejection doesn't say anything about me as a person!" but for whatever reason, my feelings haven't seemed to catch on to that yet. hence why i haven't really put myself out there in a while. lol i tend to associate "expressing interest = automatic rejection" since that's been my only experiences with this thus far (i used to be super emotionally unavailable and subconsciously only went for other unavailable types as a result... so you can imagine how that worked out lol). i don't mean this in like a "woe is me" kinda way, but more like a "this is how my brain connects the dots" kinda way.

(edited to add last two sentences)

[Heather]

You know, back in my twenties, when I first started submitting things en masse for publication, I did generally find that the more rejections I got, the easier it got to believe that they didn't say bupkis about my value as a person, nor even about my value as a writer. The more and more I got, the easier I found it to recognize that in a lot of ways, they didn't actually tell me much about me, at all: what they were, almost exclusively, were statements on the wants and preferences of any given publisher or editor. What it told me about was really them, not me, and what they wanted.

And knowing what I knew even then, but sure do now, about how the vast majority of writers had the same ever-growing pile, it also made it easier not to take it personally, and to recognize that when someone has very specific wants and needs -- as is the case in publishing, and certainly often in dating, too -- the majority of people are NOT going to meet those, and only a minority will. So, in a word, rejection was not only mighty inevitable, but it'd be more common than not, and that was okay, even if when it did happen, I still felt disappointed.

[MusicNerd]

yeah, that totally makes sense. i mean, i'm very well-aware that rejection is inevitable (as shown in my last edited/added two sentences in the post above). but for me it's to the point where it's like "the odds are so slim, and if it hasn't worked out ever thus far, why bother trying?" which probably isn't the most optimistic way to go about looking at things lol, but still...

[MusicNerd]

(also, sidenote: "bupkis" is a really great word that i haven't heard in forever! hahaha )

[Heather]

Maybe the "why bother" is because to limit your life because of a fear of rejection or disappointment would mean closing yourself off from a loooooooooooot of life?

I mean, it's not like just never pursuing dating relationships is going to mean no more of these risks, after all. Pretty much anything in life you can do or try that can have a big positive payoff is going to involve you also taking the risk of NOT getting whatever that is. So, the way I see it, unless you're just going to decide not to really live your life or grow, deciding you just won't risk rejection or disappointment is just a non-option.

And the thing with something like flirting is that as risks go, it's probably one of the smaller ones in life. After all, flirting doesn't pose any physical dangers, it doesn't put someone at risk of not being able to have shelter next month, and unless it results in something deeply positive, and becomes something more meaningful in your life that started with flirting, it's very likely it'll have little to no impact on your life long-term at all. So, as practice ground for learning to be okay with rejection, to put ourselves out there, to risk a bummer, it's really quite a good one, since it's a lot less loaded, pretty universally, than many other kinds of risk your life will probably present you with.

Extra bonus: if and when we do flirt with someone who declines to pick that up, and we handle it well, we also give people an experience that validates their right to say no to someone who wants something with them they don't. And the sad fact is that a lot of people can go a long time without having experiences like that, and some basically figure, based on that, they don't have that right, which I know you no doubt think is as tragic as I do. So, there's a hidden gift for someone in a flirtation that comes from us gently, without aggression, and without anything put on them at all in our responses to them that insists they're obliged to respond in kind, which I also think is mighty cool.

[MusicNerd]

you know, tbh I never really thought about my responses to someone's rejection/not pressuring them to respond a certain way as like a "hidden gift" to someone. it always just kinda seemed like, well... a respectful thing to do? lol idk but yeah, i totally see what you mean.

I guess it also helps that I know first-hand what it's like to be on the other end of someone not giving a hoot about how I felt rejecting them and having my boundaries disrespected, so perhaps I get a little bit hyper-sensitive about making sure other people feel comfortable. sometimes I think I'm too sensitive for my own good, honestly.... sorry, total rambling tangent there! where was I going with this? lol

yeah, you're probably right about that being where a lot of my "why bother?" attitude comes from. *sigh* like, out of all the risks I've had to deal with in life (and still deal with, really), I totally agree that this is definitely not up there on my list of biggest risks, but like... it makes no sense why it feels much bigger than I know it is. smh

I guess it doesn't help that society seems to have this idea that "single + inexperienced = undesirable," which is utter bullcrap to put it nicely, but perhaps even after whatever progress I've made I still have some of that internalized messaging (since it's like *everywhere*). god, problematic internalization's the worst! *facepalm*

[MusicNerd]

(also, sorry about writing so much.... like, jeez!)

[Heather]

No worries. You know, I think the thing for me, personally, about hearing you be risk-averse is that that just doesn't sound like you to me. You took a big one, for instance, when you did that op-ed in your college's paper, a bold, awesome move.

So, for me, some of this just feels so discordant, because I know that you're a badass.

[MusicNerd]

oh man, you still remember that! haha thanks, Heather-- coming from someone who's such a badass yourself, that means a lot to me